Prong collar for dog v dog aggression

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5eGbesAX4

Adam

"I have it clipped off for my benefit," says it all. There is absolutely nothing nicer than a well groomed, long-coated Golden or Cavalier. It is very theraputic to get on the floor with them and comb the beautiful long tresses that make these (and other) breeds. My 4 Goldens are all neutered, heavy coated, love rolling in "stuff" as well as mud and not for one minute would I consider doing any more than trimming the "knickers" of the very elderly one who has the occasional accident. My Newfoundland had oodles of coat that I was so proud of and it took ages to keep her that way. If people don't want the coat on a Golden, they should buy a Labrador. It really makes my blood boil to see these dogs virtually shaved and in this area, most dogs are denied the beauty of their natural coats. Even Border Terriers are clipped to within an inch of their lives as was a PBGV that I saw on the forest, not to mention the Westie that I saw in January in freezing temepratiures without his coat yet the owner's Viszla was actually wearing a coat so he knew how cold it was. Why put a coat on the short haired one yet cut the coat off the one with natural insulation? I have started asking people with shaved Goldens or Cavaliers if their dogs have had mange! When they say no, I do get into quite a row with them but I really hate this trend. Can we stop it? Surely the groomers have a lot to answer for but I guess they have to do what the client pays for or lose their custom.
And don't even START me on the trimming of Goldens for the show ring: they are shaved from the chin to point of breast bone to make them look as though they have a neck. Another American abomination!

Will they really get used to the environment with the stress of A.) Not wanting to be out and B.) The pain from the prongs? Will it not further drill into them that being out and about is a bad thing?

Adam- what literature did you read to research into the use of such E-collars and Prong collars? I would like to give it a read for the sake of balance and being neutral. I'm all for a fair argument and maybe it's something that I should research more so that I can have a better understanding.

G.Rets- do you really believe that clipping the coat of a dog, in Summer time, has a negative effect on their health/behaviour? I can understand how it could do in the winter, but when it is not bitterly cold, do you think there is any effect on the dog, other than aesthetics?

As already explained alot of dogs have double coats whichg also serve to keep them cool.

I basically contacted to a tonne of more experienced trainers/behaviourists than me and took it from there. I have hung out with some very experienced dog trainers since I was 13 and have seen them use similar techniques with different tools and simply put everything together.

E collar stuff was http://dobbsdogs.com/ , http://www.loucastle.com/ , http://www.thatsmydog.com/ , and http://diamondbarkennel.tripod.com/

Prong collar mostly came from other trainers experience ect also of using check collars and applying the same ideas to prongs!

Adam

The double coated dog is reliant on the coat both summer and winter it traps air in the under coat which keeps the dog warm in winter and cool in summer and to remove it has no advantages at all except they may be easier to groom but even that has to be set against the fact that when the hair regrows it may be even more difficult to deal with.

And don't even START me on the trimming of Goldens for the show ring: they are shaved from the chin to point of breast bone to make them look as though they have a neck. Another American abomination!

Where on EARTH did you get that idea from???? First point is that Goldens necks are NOT shaved for the show ring, they are trimmed with thinning scissors. Second point is that in America, this is NOT done on Goldens, they have full manes -hiding their necks........ They even have the fur on their hindlegs brushed OUTWARDS to make the legs appear thicker. Just a pity they have Collie faces to go with it all........then again it goes with their Rough Collie coat over there!!
American show Golden: http://www.razzlegoldens.com/Web%20shineJAM.jpg
UK show Golden: http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk/images/Chshow2010/Stormerick_Solomon.jpg

I have to say, dogs clipped out shaved to teh skin rather than in their natural coat annoys me beyond belief.

I do not think that there really is anything that would be acceptable to do to a rescue that you wouldnt consider for a non-rescue, except on welfare grounds (for instance, a highly nervous dog with an awfully matted coat may be clipped under sedation as it is terrified of being groomed, but after THAT, counter-conditioning to enjoy grooming would certainly not take as long as it would take for the coat to grow back!).

Honestly if people haven't the time - don't have the dog!

It isnt always black and white (hence the above example) but too many things are done under this excuse of 'well if we didnt do this we couldnt keep him we'd have to rehome/pts'... it might start with clipping because someone cant be bothered to groom, and ends wtih e collars and filing a dogs teeth off because they havent the patience to train properly (Adam dont even bother I have you on Ignore user anyway!).

Grooming is a matter of time and common sense - I have a Tibetan Terrier in full coat - we don't aimi to keep him in a SHOW standard coat, but hes clean and brushed the majority of the time. I have a saluki x afghan with looooads of coat, all fluffy (like shes got frilly knickers and petticoats on!) - again im not trying to grow more coat there but we keep her tat-free and clean... The Deerhound needs regular brushing or she resembles something dragged through a hedge backwards (then forwards, then backwards again...)...

I would imagine some people would shave all these down, and kid themselves it is for the dogs welfare because its 'cooler' without that heavy coat but actually on a hot day, my Tibby is the coolest dog around, HE is insulated frmo the heat with his double coat, whereas mrs frilly knickers has a fine saddle that allows her to get quite hot, and fluff covering all the areas where blood vessels run close to the surface and would normally help her cool. SO even though shes got a third the coat he has, shes the one that overheats first!

Most of these dogs that get shaved bald each summer would stay FAR cooler if their owners BRUSHED them properly. It astounds me that people do not know how to do this (though my OH does not know and 'can't do it.. i suspdct there is a bigger element of 'i wont, because I know you will...').

Just a general reply to all.  It's interesting that at first many were not as against the shaving as I thought might be, for the insulating qualities of the full coat.  Rusty was shaved close enough I took him for a Lab, at a bounding, jumping playing with my Lab distance in the under brush and tall grass.  The other small dog was shaved too.  Perhaps clipped is a better word.  The reason given was to cut down on the amount of loose hair floating about a small house with two young children, one of them a baby.  That's where lack of funds and time come in.  No money or time to drive to groomers and pay for work to be done that they don't have time for themselves.  Mind you, when they first moved in I don't think they knew a GR breeder with grooming business lived within walking distance.

A point jumps out at me.  Your rescues seem to function differently than ours.  My rescue dog was a private rescue but two cats were from an agency and it seems to me once the critter is out of their housing there is no followup.  Even breed rescues because I have neighbours with purebred dogs from breed rescue.  So the comment from some to give the dog to breed rescue really surprised me since that's where some came from in the first place.  Believe me, there are a few cases where I wish follow-up had been done.  Some owners should never have had dogs, I mean the ones who let aggressive dogs run loose on busy roads to threaten the rest of us and put their own lives at risk.

As to prongs, well first let me assure you, despite the reputation we have on this side of the pond, I have never seen one with sharp points, as someone said.  I've no doubt they are out there but in all the prongs easily availabe in stores here all had pretty dull ends.  I was led to view prongs as instruments of torture by the 1993 obedience club I attended with Jet.  But guess what?  They let in a dog on it's last chance at life, an extremely dog aggressive Rottie, whose new owner took her on only to see if she could be trained, with prong, to not attack other dogs.  Otherwise she was headed for euthanasia.  Sorry, I don't know how that story ended but I know several of us also thought, why bother?  PTS right now.  Not so much because we believed the dog was being tortured with the prong, clearly she was not, but because we thought she would never be trustworthy.  No one but an experienced handler could even walk her on leash even with the prong on.

I don't think prongs are nearly as well thought of here as some above think they are.  But, they are available in stores where training in their fitting, use is not given so that is a concern. 

I have no personal experince with E-collars and to tell you the truth I think in my scenario they would be unlikely as they cost a bit of money.  So if funding was lacking then I doubt the owner strapped for cash would be able to go that way even if they wanted to.  Many folks I know use them on happy, well adjusted dogs in a trialing/testing group I went to for a while.  I only saw one example of rough use but it was disturbing.  It was on a strong willed dog who had not been trained properly in the first place.  No one really said anything because when you have a +80 year old owner/handler who finally wants to title on a dog he trained himself who is going to tell him he can't do it?  And in the end he did enlist help and did title.

admin edit : please continue the e collar debate here

Well Goldimal, you can euphemistically call it "trimmed with thinning scissors" but it is done so close that it is tantamount to shaving. Where do I get that idea from: when I am in the ring judging Goldens or showing mine, that's where.

Where do I get that idea from:

The idea that it is an AMERICAN invention!

You obviously have not lived with an untrimmed pet Golden. That American dog is obviously trimmed from under his chin or he would have far more coat all down his neck. The UK one is an older dog, not trimmed as far down as the newest trend but still heavily trimmed on the upper part of his neck. Many are much more severely massacred and, as they win, that's what exhibitors think they have to do. The standard calls for "a good length of neck" not one of swan-like length! Please take a look in the dog press at the photos of winning Goldens, even the Crufts BOB who is a lovely dog and does not need to be trimmed like that.

In my oppinion its nothing to do with anyone if one decided to shave their dog abeit champion or rescue. Prongs and e-colars a no.
I breed a toy, long hair breed and 80% of owners shave their dog after a year or so. I dont mind although even if I did it would be none of my business.

I would never clip off my Cavaliers or Yankee unless it became necessary for medical reasons, I wouldn't do it just for my convenience. But I can't condemn people who haven't the time or energy. Some spayed Cavaliers do have a horrendous coat, I used to groom a large rather fat ruby girl who I would have been tempted to recommend the cocker clip on if she'd been tricolour or black/tan. That's because it looks ok on a black or black/white dog, whereas the colour definition and change of colour on a clipped blenheim or ruby just makes them look like a laughing stock imho. However if it was necessary for the dog's comfort, then I would do it. Same with shih tzus - personally for a pet trim I like either the 5/8 blade or scissored short and fluffy, or one of my clients has hers in a terrier clip which looks surprisingly attractive on them. But if the owner doesn't have the time or patience to brush, or if like one of my old clients the dog will not tolerate it, it's better to clip the coat off then to try to deal with a matted mess. Same with Yorkies / Maltese etc - personally I prefer a puppy trim, but if the owner wants a terrier clip to save on grooming, it's not the end of the world, the dog doesn't care and still looks quite nice I think. Interestingly I do have one Goldie I groom, I've only ever tidied feet / tail / skirt and trimmed the chest hair but not done any clipping or thinning down the neck. But last time they picked him up they did wonder if anything could be done to thin out the neck and chest more; as I don't show these I didn't realise they were in effect suggesting more of a show trim and they didn't realise either as they don't show. :-)

You obviously have not lived with an untrimmed pet Golden.

No, only 10 over 30 years.

Hi jetsone jewel.

Interesting question, is the general idea in the states that rescue and pound dogs are cheaper than dogs from puppies and thus they are dogs for people on a budget?

In the uk while there is a diff between cost of puppy and cost of rescue adult I have had no experience of people seeing rescues budget dogs.

I think most people are willing to spend whatever they can once they are attached to the dog. I also think every dog deserves a chance. Could be that rottie went on to be fine with other dogs and is a wonderful pet.

Adam

I'm in Canada, not the States, but I will hazard a guess that is so for some rescues, though many have substantial fees because of the Vetting they put into dogs.  We are a colder country and I don't think the rescue problem here is as bad as it is in some of the U.S.  In the warmer states dogs can live outside all year and not freeze to death as they would in most of Canada.  Plus the human population in the U.S. is nearly 300 times that of Canada, so more people producing more unwanted dogs.

Definitely pound puppies are cheaper than well bred dogs from reputable breeders.  I'm positive some people make a deliberate choice to go the rescue route, or the "puppies for sale" sign route because they can't or don't want to put money out for a dog with a pedigree, a good pedigree.  And some people think rescue is the responsible thing to do, which no one can argue with.

My only agency rescues were two cats, mother and son, and yes, the kitten cost me about half his mother, or was supposed to, because he was not neutered.  They ended up being the same price as Mother cat could not be spayed while nursing, or they didn't want to.  I think it's the same for dogs.  But some rescues do perform paediatric neuters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

Hate to say it but much prefer the American ones.  don't like the heavy heads on our show goldens.