The prong thread got me wondering.  That and a discussion with my neighbour, who breeds Golden Retrievers and is thrilled to have her first champion, one of her bitches.  I had mentionned to her that another neighbour shaved his GR and I mistook it for a Lab.  We were despairing together but we decided it was all right with us if the owners had rescued the dog, were short of funds and were otherwise providing a good home for dog that might not have a life, let alone a home.  Not all right but I think you know what I mean, we would find it easier for ourselves to understand and accept.

So.  Would you find a prong easier to accept if the person was of limited time and means but was trying to give an otherwise unwanted animal a home?  An E-collar?  Shaving a longhaired breed?  If these things made it possible for the owner to keep the dog by helping in control or reducing grooming then might it be acceptable?  Not ideal, but acceptable as the animal might not be taken by anyone else otherwise? Thoughts?

Clipping, yes. Prong collars, e-collars etc -no, I'd rather have the dog put to sleep so it wasn't suffering in ANY way. But unless the dog was a Staffie or a common/not fashionable crossbreed (i.e. where there just AREN'T homes available), the obvious answer of course is to not keep such a dog at all if funds or time or whatever doesn't permit, but do the SENSIBLE and responsible thing and contact breed rescue and hand the dog over to them.

Clipping a dog may look ugly but is no problem to the health and well being although I do sometimes wonder if a clipped dog feels as silly as they sometimes look. However to use pain to try and train a dog that already has problems to me sounds like the advice of a lunatic.

Please do not think that I am saying the OP is a lunatic I can understand just where they are coming from but there are so many dogs of all types in rescue I am really of the opinion that a dog that can not be re-trained by normal kind methods would possible be better PTS there are, after all, nice well behaved dogs waiting for a home and it is not necessary to use cruel methods on a dog that has suffered already and who's experiances have rendered them unsuitable to becoming a stable happy member of a family.

> Would you find a prong easier to accept if the person was of limited time and means but was trying to give an otherwise unwanted animal a home?

No... Simply put... Dogs require time and effort to be put into their training and as for means, dogs cost and can cost a lot...
If you can't put the time and effort into training a dog then its the wrong animal for you as a pet. If you can't afford to keep a dog then you shouldn't have one...

As for clipping a long coated dog, I do wonder why anyone would then choose to have a long coated dog when there are plenty of great short coated dogs out there, they have a long coat for a reason..

In your analogy I fail to see why being a 'rescue', with an owner short of funds was sufficient reason or justification to shave the dog.  What has lack of money got to do with a long coat?  Even if the neighbours logic is completely flawed, he could have just chosen a short coated dog...

I have to say I'm getting heartily sick and tired of the electric collar, prong collar, aversive methods debates on champdogs.  Some 'shop' popped up the other day bleating about their rights to express an opinion, and why can't the rest of us discuss his products rationally.  I quote from his/her post  "I often wonder if being a dog lover means losing the ability for reasoned or rational debate, let's see shall we?"

I don't object to reasoned debate, I wouldn't for one minute attempt to inhibit a persons right to have an opinion, but I also don't think that he who shouts loudest longest wins; and here on Champdogs we seem to get the same people offering these solutions over and over again.  If it's airtime they want, they are getting it when even other topic discussions are getting pulled into the same arena.  I have many of these repeat offenders on 'ignore' but I can see that they are still there, still banging on, and posting their objectionable videos.  I would think that you can expect them to be along soon...

It's ok once in a while but do we really have to read the same old stuff every day?  I'm starting to avoid reading and answering more and more posts recently which is unfortunate as there are OP's that may end up with a very skewed idea of dog training.  Imagine that we are all happily going to a training club together, using kind reward based training.  Gradually we get more and more sales people coming in to tell us about electric collars, prong collars and the like.  It starts off as balanced debate but soon they start to show videos and give demonstrations, and some of our newer members are convinced and interested.  If our trainers continued to allow this then it's likely that we'd quite soon be a very different training club.  I'd eventually leave - how about you? 

Surely it's not as if Golden Retrievers have a difficult coat to look after?  I could understand more if the coat was difficult, but a GR surely can't take much looking after?  If they haven't time to brush then should they have the dog?  I spend hours brushing dogs - some are worse than others at getting in tangles.  I certainly wouldn't find it acceptable for any dog to suffer - if it's been rescued from one home it shouldn't need rescuing from another.  If temperament was such a problem as to require the owner to even consider some of these 'methods' then I'd probably prefer to see the dog pts than to be given more pain and suffering.  Unacceptable is unacceptable. 

> if it's been rescued from one home it shouldn't need rescuing from another.  If temperament was such a problem as to require the owner to even consider some of these 'methods' then I'd probably prefer to see the dog pts than to be given more pain and suffering.  Unacceptable is unacceptable. 

I second that.

Surely it's not as if Golden Retrievers have a difficult coat to look after?

Depends on. If the dog is neutered or the bitch spayed, it does rather change the quality for the worse (and makes it a LOT more abundant) and makes it far more difficult to manage. Couple that with the dog being outside a lot (be it for walks or just staying outside) and a Golden's natural ability to get as filthy as possible by rolling in everything they see or jumping in puddles, you can get a coat very difficult to manage. It also brings in a LOT of mud on the featherings and tail. All of this together is just one reason for why I have said that after my current Golden, there will be no more. It's so much easier to sit with a Papillon on your lap and groom it, and the Malinois have short coats so don't tangle.

Grooming, not a worry, if the dog isn't a show dog, does it matter, tbh some groomers professional cuts make me want to cry anyway, so a bad hair cut doesn't make any difference to the dog, it might hurt the owners or passersby's :-D feelings, but the dog won't care whether others know what breed he/she is or how awful he/she may or may not look.

For me if a dog can be trained using pain, it can certainly be trained using praise and reward, if it is untrainable for whatever reason due to character or even mental health instability then it would need to be controlled daily and always with the same equipment, for me I would prefer the animal be pts.

If I was asked to do something with instruction and a smile, I'd happily do it. :-)

If someone gave me a slap across the face and told me to do it, I may well still do it, but the world wouldn't feel like a good place to me and I would be doing what I was asked for appeasement and for fear of another slap, but is it right to do it that way when I can do it the first way even though the instruction may take longer to learn?

I don't feel that dogs should be treated any differently to this analogy, if they can learn then we teach them, with kindness and praise and reward. If an owner is not capable of doing this or does not know of a good trainer/behaviourist to help them do this then the dog needs to be left in rescue IMO for someone else who can and not given that option of pain from those less capable to make it behave as they want it to.

Depends on. If the dog is neutered or the bitch spayed, it does rather change the quality for the worse (and makes it a LOT more abundant) and makes it far more difficult to manage. Couple that with the dog being outside a lot (be it for walks or just staying outside) and a Golden's natural ability to get as filthy as possible by rolling in everything they see or jumping in puddles, you can get a coat very difficult to manage. It also brings in a LOT of mud on the featherings and tail.

I must be a lot more tolerant towards such things :-( All I know is that my lot are considerably 'worse' in general than one GR so if that's all they've got they should be prepared to look after his coat - even if they clip a bit, doesn't have to be all of it... mind I know people who clip their sheltie (considerably more hair if a smaller dog) and it does look odd, mind I'm tempted sometimes....

I whole heartedly agree!

I have a beautiful 9 year old spayed Golden Retriever bitch who suffers with oestoarthritis and spay incontinence.  Her coat, always profuse is now of a completely different texture.  More prone to matting than it used to be.  She requires washing every day to keep her clean and fresh.  I use thinning scissors on her "trousers" and keep them shorter than i used to.  She is clipped between her hind legs to make washing her more effective and to help prevent urine burn.  (she is on propalin which seems to be the most effective medication for her).  Her coat requires a lot of care and brushing daily.    Oh and she just adores fox poo :-)

All this costs me is time and i consider it time well spent!  She is our treasure and only the best is good enough for her.  Why should a rescue dog be any less worthy?

I use e collars/prong collars as a regular training tool I have discussed the benefits of both elsewhere (and am currently making an e collar benefits video!)
Even if I had a dog from a pup and did everything with it right from the start ect I would still use an e collar for the recall for example.
A, for peace of mind, e collar trained dogs are much more reliable than dogs that are not e collar trained, even when not wearing collars!
B, because of the immediate benefits to the dog, so not weeks/months/years/life on a long line, lots of freedom/natural behaviour from the start.

So really the e collar/prong collar part is a none question to me!

Re clipping, my old collie has a lassie coat, I have it clipped off for my benefit and his comfort (gets hot in summer/muddy in winter). I don't see how clipping is a big deal? He seems to quite like it.

Certainly if I had a rough collie/bearded collie/afghan hound I would have the coat clipped.

Adam

Well Adam P hopefully such collars will be banned so no one will have the option, perhaps if you still have dogs then you'll stick with short coated ones, after all why buy a hairy dog if you don't want the hair???

I must be a lot more tolerant towards such things

Don't get me wrong PennyGC -I was merely answering your question explaining that a Golden coat CAN take a lot of work indeed -I'd HATE to see a clipped Golden although I have no problems whatsoever with shortening feathers etc. But if the choice was as in the original post, shave the coat or use prong collars or e-collars, well then that's a no brainer. :)

Don't forget as well that people's circumstances can change. My mother in law has had dogs her life. When her husband died, she was left with the dog -that he used to care for. A shortcoated older dog that she could cope with. That bitch then died and she was desperate for another dog to keep her company. However at that moment in time she lived on her own AND she's disabled, so she needed a small adult dog that could do without a lot of exercise (just now and then when somebody else could do it). Rescue would not even consider homing to her. At the same time I had a Cavalier who was picked on by my other Cavaliers and he was unhappy, so I sent him to live with MIL. He LOVED it there, was so happy. Door open all the time in summer, large garden, company 24/7. MIL however has very bad arthritis and there was no way she could groom him, so to save us from having to travel over to groom several times a week, I clipped him short every 3 months. In that instance it did both dog and owner a favour, didn't bother the dog at all, and they lived happily together until the dog died a few years later. MIL then moved in with us and now doesn't have to worry about such things as I am always here able to help with whatever dog she has living with her.

I own two Rough collies and hahaha (10) quiet a few Border Collies all are relaible off lead and all have their coats, go swimming in the local river or sea if they choose and love to wallow in mud. Self-cleaning proper coats that don't need clipping just a regular brush through with the correct brush and comb. Oh and just to add 1 rough and 3 borders are spayed.

Penny gc (were is quote?)

I don't really care about what the dog looks like (length of coat) I'm more interested in the dogs personality!

Adam

i know of a few people who do agility shave there border collies off in the summer it is there personal choice and i can't see it harming the dogs.
but using a prong collar or e collar on a dog that already has problems and is possibly scared to start with i could not and would not use them

Possibly doesn't do any harm however why not just choose to train a smooth coated Bc instead

Don't know what type of coat bc are but for dogs with double coats it does more harm than good clipping it off as the double coat traps the air to keep them cool.

So.  Would you find a prong easier to accept if the person was of limited time and means but was trying to give an otherwise unwanted animal a home?  An E-collar?  Shaving a longhaired breed?  If these things made it possible for the owner to keep the dog by helping in control or reducing grooming then might it be acceptable?  Not ideal, but acceptable as the animal might not be taken by anyone else otherwise? Thoughts?

I would rather have my dog PTS than use a prong collar or an e-collar - there are far worse things in life than ending suffering.

I have a GR who was neutered at 6 months - no choice in the matter as he is a rescue and it's their policy - but it doesn't take that long to groom him. He is a complete mud magnet - swims in ditches, ponds, the sea, a cup of tea :-) and is walked off lead in woods and fields and thus collects all sorts of vegetation in his coat. A quick brush and comb when we get back usually removes most objects and then he gets a half hour or so of more thorough grooming once or twice a week. I usually do this during the evening whilst watching the news so am utilising time when I would normally just be sitting down watching the TV.

I was always told that dogs shouldn't be clipped to keep them cool - a coat that insulates from the cold in winter will do the same in the summer and clipping their coat off will help them to overheat. HG posted a brilliant link on here once explaining this - will have a look and see if I can remember where I saved it on my computer and will post it on here.

I'm not sure I buy the whole long coat = cool dog thing, if that were true then the aussie drovers dogs (kelpies and cattle dogs) would have long coats like bearded collies!

E collars/prong collars improve quality of life.

They improve behaviour

and save lives!

PLEASE REMEMBER SHOCK COLLARS ARE ILLEGAL IN WALES.

Adam

admin edit: no promtional urls

We are talking a species normal double coat (Goldens, Collies). 

The extra long coats are another matter and have been produced more by mans whim.

> E collars/prong collars improve quality of life.

Controlling an animal through pain and fear can never be an improvement on quality of life - unless you are talking about the qualitiy of life of owners who believe that their pet should suffer to make their own life easier.

> They improve behaviour

They mask the problem that causes the behaviour in the first place - they certainly don't cure the reason for the behaviour.

> and save lives!

There is living and then there is living - my definition of a good life is far removed from yours :-(

> PLEASE REMEMBER SHOCK COLLARS ARE ILLEGAL IN WALES

Now that statement I do agree with and only wish that it were so elsewhere in the world.

> seeing as you have been unable to train your terrier to recall and stated elsewhere he would have to be pts instead of rehome I'm not sure your opinion matters much to me lol.
>

I think this a personal derogatory comment Adam - & as such has no place on this forum. Your continual quest to force everybody to listsn to your aversive methods are one thing, but to give persaonl put-downs like this are another. There is NO place on this forum for that sort of attitude atall - that is very, very low indeed

Allthough there is NO need for Harley to even begin to justify why she would consider having her own dog PTS instead of rehoming - I will attempt to do so, but not for your benefit - for the benefit of anybody else reading that has not thought things through. - In some circumstances it is kinder for the DOG to to PTS than to be put through the process of being rehomed. For Harley to be selfLESS enough to even consider that option, I take my hat of to her - she is what being a RESPONSIBLE dog owner - with the DOGS best interests at heart - is all about.

> I think this a personal derogatory comment Adam - & as such has no place on this forum. Your continual quest to force everybody to listsn to your aversive methods are one thing, but to give persaonl put-downs like this are another. There is NO place on this forum for that sort of attitude atall - that is very, very low indeed

With respect, I have seen Adam use this tactic on other forums, usually when he is backed into a corner or can't think of anything else to say, and have been on the receiving end of it myself. I agree it is low, vile and well below the belt but it shows his true colours, in that he thinks nothing of degrading humans as well as dogs.

>I'm not sure your opinion matters much to me

If you took anyone's opinion into consideration you'd stop pushing your unwanted ideas on this forum.  Self censorship is a courtesy that many of us afford our fellow man out of respect for others

> But this is just your opinion, and seeing as you have been unable to train your terrier to recall and stated elsewhere he would have to be pts instead of rehome I'm not sure your opinion matters much to me lol.
>

Yes it is my opinion Adam and also that of a huge number of members of this forum. As for my terrier - a rescue from a very bad start in life, no socialisation etc etc before we got him - you have somewhat twisted what I have said on a previous thread :-)

You suggested that I should use a shock collar to train his recall - I said that he has a very good, speedy recall for the majority of the time but also has a very high prey drive and if he puts something up then his instincts take over and he is off nose to the ground and deaf to the world. In view of this and because he is walked in rural areas with livestock around I would not run the risk of him being shot by a farmer, running onto a road etc and so he is walked on a long line (50 feet) unless we are in an enclosed area.

He came to us with many issues and is a very stressed little dog - his recall is the least of his problems but I would never, ever stress him out more by shocking him into submission. And yes I still stand by my decision that he would not be rehomed if something happened to myself or my daughter - he would be PTS and not spend a lifetime of yo-yo rehoming nor be subjected to pain and fear. My responsibility is to my dogs and for that particular dog the kindest future for him would be for him to not be passed on but to go to sleep in the arms of people who love and understand him and believe he has suffered enough in his life.

Have a look at this rescue site Adam - they specialise in rehoming terriers - and see their article about terriers and recall. Funnily enough I don't see any mention of them recommending using e-collars - although they do recommend keeping terriers on a long line - but then what would they know!
http://www.terrierrescue.co.uk/page7.htm

Slightly off topic so apologies, but just had a good trawl through your link Harley - what a wonderful, wonderful rescue.  The stories of Seamus and Alfee warmed the cockles :)
Very sensible and informative advice on the site too.

Admin/moderators

I see Adam's reply to me has been removed. I really don't mind his reply being included in the thread. Although others were worried that it was a personal and derogatory remark I think he is entitled to have his say - and it also demonstrates very well why people do have an issue with some of his posts.

It actually made me laugh that he felt he needed to reply in such a way - my replies that I have given in the past opposing his views have obviously made an impact on him as the post about my terrier was made months ago :-)

I feel quite honoured that my words stuck in his memory :-)

> Self-cleaning proper coats that don't need clipping just a regular brush through

This comment really hit home for me.  My Border Collie can look as if he has been for a mud bath, and I am always amazed how quickly he looks good again.  He loves nothing better than to get absoltely filthy, and you wonder where to start.  But you're right about the self cleaning.

This comment really hit home for me.  My Border Collie can look as if he has been for a mud bath, and I am always amazed how quickly he looks good again.  He loves nothing better than to get absoltely filthy, and you wonder where to start.  But you're right about the self cleaning

Its the same with the JS coat thats why its nicknamed teflon fur, its a blessing when your back garden is a quagmire for most of the year :-)

Ours too with the added advantage of being a very serviceable grey.

Ours too with the added advantage of being a very serviceable grey

oh boy did I notice a difference going from one GSD (although first summer was horrendous as she'd lived out in kennels - open a door and 'tumble weed' blew across the lounge) ... I'd bought oatmeal carpets (undercoat is golden) to collies with grey undercoat... shows up on the carpet like it's mud :-(

Not sure what I should change carpets too... half dogs have golden undercoat (red collies and sheltie) and the other half grey and black (collies, sheps and shelties)

> Not sure what I should change carpets too... half dogs have golden undercoat (red collies and sheltie) and the other half grey and black (collies, sheps and shelties)

Wood or laminate floors (tole in lkitchen) with mats which can be washed or hosed down.

Slicker brush works great on the mats which work like magnets to trap the tumbleweeds.

You also have to remember that all that mud that disappears off the Teflon coats of our dogs has to go somewhere and if you have carpets you will soon discover where.

No carpets downstairs ;-)

wood or laminate floors (tole in kitchen) with mats which can be washed or hosed down.

oh I have wood floors in the bedroom and laminate in the kitchen and conservatory which I cover with carpet cos the dogs slip on the wood/laminate, so to avoid injury I bought a superb sebo which does pick up most of the hair and all of the mud  :-)

Harley

I agree the terrier rescue clearly don't know much, most terriers I see in a none proffessional setting are off lead in normal circumstances and many are off lead in exceptional circumstances (round town ect) I think terriers are a pretty easy off lead type tbh.

Saying a breed/type cannot do something just feeds into breed pred about the dogs and stops people homing them. I would imagine they are backed up atm (as most rescues) and many people click on there, see how bad terriers appear to be and deciede on something else!

My terriers (I have two rescues, both with considerably worst behaviour historys than yours) are off lead in a variety/all circumstances. Including on the country lanes and on the moors.

Adam

promotional urls removed

Wood / laminate downstairs here too, would never go back to carpet. Not only is it easier to vaccum up, but it is much more obvious that it's time I did the vaccuming, whereas with carpet in the old house I tended not to notice the gradual change from blue-grey carpet to grey until hubby started complaining (he's house proud, I'm a slob!) :-D

no no please don't reply to my posts... gulp! never will I watch you are crazy to keep posting this rubbish and trying to make people watch and do horrid things to their dogs.  this is the last time I'm going to say anything to you on this forum... can't imagine why you post all this stuff, and don't want to know!

I've seen too many dogs with hip dislocations and other strains not to keep my carpet... dogs slip enough where there isn't any :-(

but we decided it was all right with us if the owners had rescued the dog, were short of funds and were otherwise providing a good home for dog that might not have a life, let alone a home.  Not all right but I think you know what I mean, we would find it easier for ourselves to understand and accept.

Sorry, but no... makes no difference to me whether a dog is rescued or not! Rescue dogs deserve just as much care and respect than any pedigree. Actually, I am surprised this is even an issue. It has never even crossed my mind that I should treat my rescue dogs differently to my breeder-bought one... Why should I? They are both dogs regardless of their background.

Re coat clipping: I have an American cocker in full coat. He is "only" a pet dog and working dog (obedience) and I love the long coat, but I am pretty sure that once he is old and can't stand on the grooming table for 2 hours anymore at the time, then I will clip him! I'd much rather see long haired dogs clipped, than matted and uncared for. 

> I agree the terrier rescue clearly don't know much, most terriers I see in a none proffessional setting are off lead in normal circumstances and many are off lead in exceptional circumstances (round town ect) I think terriers are a pretty easy off lead type tbh.
>

Shakes head and wonders why she ever thought that irony would be recognised :-(

> Saying a breed/type cannot do something just feeds into breed pred about the dogs and stops people homing them. I would imagine they are backed up atm (as most rescues) and many people click on there, see how bad terriers appear to be and deciede on something else

Many terriers will have wonderful manners and be trained to a high level. I meet many such dogs competing in agility and they are a credit to their owners :-) Maybe those terriers had the benefit of a good background, correct socialisation, consistant, kind training etc right from puppyhood. A rescue terrier is a totally different ball game :-) It is far easier to train in good behaviour than to try and train out bad behaviour that one has inherited along with the dog :-) There are lots of terrier owners on here who have very well behaved dogs - and then there are those who have terriers like mine :-) I would never ever have my dogs off lead in a town - apart from being illegal it just isn't worth the risk - and my eldest dog has great manners and a high level of obedience but still would keep him on lead on roads and around livestock. He totally ignores sheep, horses etc but again it's not worth risking the unexpected happening.

By the pure nature of them being a rescue for terriers they deal with dogs who have been given up for numerous reasons but by far and away the most common reason is that the original owners couldn't cope with their behaviour - and most often the cause of that is the owner not understanding the breed, lack of correct socialisation, training, and general ignorance of a dog's needs as is the case with a huge number of rescue cases. I am sure if we had had our terrier as a puppy he would be a very different dog from the one he was turned into through ignorance, neglect and fear. By listing the breed traits the rescue is trying to ensure that they get the best possible homes for the dogs they are responsible for - just as a responsible breeder would. If a prospective owner is put off by being informed of the problems they may face then they weren't the right owner for the breed anyway.

> My terriers (I have two rescues, both with considerably worst behaviour historys than yours) are off lead in a variety/all circumstances. Including on the country lanes and on the moors

You only know a tiny fraction of my terrier's history so not sure how you can make such a comment?

Vinyl flooring all the way for me :-) No joins for moisture to get through, non-slip, and wipe clean :-)  Has to be non-slip - Tia has to be sure of her footing and back home, she hated the laminate with a passion.  Forever slipping on it or backing out of wherever she was (even with plenty of room to turn around) in case she slipped.

Adam - still not going to convince any of us to use an ecollar.  Recalls like those in the vids are trainable without compulsion, and many dogs with severe FA (past or ongoing) can and do learn to play brilliantly with dogs they know.

I agree Vera - very often I've seen dogs who just aren't brushed properly and for them, clipping off is a far better option than leaving the coat to mat.  I groomed a mini schnauzer the other day like that - she'd not been done since I saw her in November/December time and she was a mess :-(

Really! Most trainers who use positive methods say never to let the dog off around sheep, some say never to let certain breeds off at all!

Have you got any vids of your dogs/clients dogs recalling from sheep or prey?

Adam

Short but fluffy I hope Vera rather than nekkid! :-p I feel the same about George, though hopefully by the time he can't stand the grooming sessions he won't be up for the long walks that cause the major mess either!

I wonder if your neighbour's dog had something stuck in it's coat or some sort of medical procedure that required him to be completely clipped? I have had long/scruffy haired dogs clipped right back when they rolled in chewing gum in the park (!!!!) or when they appear to be uncomfortable in the summer. I do agree that if you can't 'cope' with a naturally long-haired dog.. why buy one? But if someone had a change o circumstances or something had happened that changed their ability to groom the coat- I don't think this would have a negative effect on the dog's wellbeing or behaviour.

I would not use a prong collar. What I have read (even the things in SUPPORT of them) about them have made me not like them. I would be willing to listen to other opinions if I could see some hard evidence in support of them from a neutral source that didn't have a vested interest. The reasons I don't like them are;

1: Using negative association seems slightly 'wrong'- you don't allow your child to burn himself in order to let him know not to mess with the cooker, why should you allow your dog to learn not to pull through fear of being harmed?

2: I cannot imagine a dog enjoying a walk when it is 'worrying' about hurting it's neck. Through previous experience I know that dogs are extremely focused when pulling and nothing will stop them- I do not imagine them to make the connection between the pain and the pulling. (I am by no means extremely experienced in this but I just from my limited experience)

3: I do worry that the connection between the pinching will be associated with something else on the walk- E.G If they are pulling toward the park, or  god forbid towards a group of children wanting to make a fuss of the dog. Wouldn't this give them negative associations and therefore a nervous aggresive response towards the item that is the focus of their attention when they receive the painful correction?

Josh

> 3. I do worry that the connection between the pinching will be associated with something else on the walk- E.G If they are pulling toward the park, or  god forbid towards a group of children wanting to make a fuss of the dog. Wouldn't this give them negative associations and therefore a nervous aggresive response towards the item that is the focus of their attention when they receive the painful correction?

Indeed it can and is a point I have made several times with regard to ecollars and, now, prongs.  Not with a prong but my oldest dobe has had this experience - she used to be severely FA with dogs and had been walked for a short while on a non-pull harness in her last home.

When I got her, she'd associated the discomfort of the harness with other dogs (because it hurt the most when she was lunging at them, and of course it happened every time...) - she couldn't wear a harness of any kind for at least a year because she'd generalised to all harnesses.  I had to do a lot work with her FA and harnesses separately before she could wear one for walks where there were other dogs (which she had to because her pulling on a flat collar before the harness was tried had tweaked some vertebrae).

What concerns me is people who might try these without looking into why the dog is pulling in the first place.  It isn't always a case of 'because it works'; I've known a lot of dogs who pull because they are extremely anxious out on walks so are trying to either be and look everywhere, so they know exactly what is going on, or are trying to get the walk over with sharpish to stop the anxiety.  Using a prong collar in that situation would be horrendous for the dog's emotional state.

If they are anxious about the walk the prong stops them bolting home and allows them to get used to the environment.

Adam