The legal situation is a lot more complicated than you imply, jackbox, so before making such statements as:

>I think thats a moot point, if the land owner "says" your dogs were worrying livestock or was concerned they might, they he is within his legal right to shoot your dog.

, you might want to do a bit more research.

1.  According to the Criminal Damage Act 1971, it is a criminal offence to threaten to shoot a dog - or to actually shoot a dog - unless a farmer believes his livestock are 'in immediate need of protection' and that 'the means of protection adopted, or proposed to be adopted, were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances'.  This means that a dog can only be shot if all other options to protect livestock have failed, including warning shots, shouting, chasing dog away etc:  Legally, these measures must be tried first, before it can be said to be necessary to shoot the dog.

2.  According to the Animals Act 1971, again the farmer must prove that 'there was no other reasonable means of ending or preventing the worrying'.  If the owner of the dog is not present, the farmer must prove that 'there was no practicable means of ascertaining to whom it belongs'.  The farmer must also report the shooting to the police within 48 hrs.  The dog owner can sue the farmer for compensation and has 6 years to bring an action for that compensation.  A trained dog can be quite expensive, in terms of compensation...

3.  Finally, the definition of worrying is also made clear by the (Dogs) Protection of Livestock Act 1953:  'The dog owner commits an offence if:

(a) their dog is in a field with livestock worrying them. Worrying means attacking livestock, or chasing livestock in such a way as may reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering to the livestock or, in the case of females, abortion, or loss of or diminution in their produce;

or (b) their dog is not under control in a field with sheep, even if he was not worrying them, but a  police dog, a guide dog, trained sheep dog, a working gun dog or a pack of hounds are all excluded.'

I hope this will put the issue to rest and stop all the misinformation which is on this thread.  Farmers cannot go around gleefully shooting dogs and there is much law to support the dog owner in these instances.  If a dog is actively worrying the sheep and they have done everything else to stop the worrying, they can then shoot. If the dog stops worrying and runs away, the farmer cannot shoot the dog.  Shooting is the last thing they should do, if all else fails:  Proportionality is what the law requires.  Farmers cannot say 'if a dog comes on my land, I will shoot it' - this is illegal. 

I hope this will put the issue to rest and stop all the misinformation which is on this thread.  Farmers cannot go around gleefully shooting dogs and there is much law to support the dog owner in these instances.  If a dog is actively worrying the sheep and they have done everything else to stop the worrying, they can then shoot. If the dog stops worrying and runs away, the farmer cannot shoot the dog.  Shooting is the last thing they should do, if all else fails:  Proportionality is what the law requires.  Farmers cannot say 'if a dog comes on my land, I will shoot it' - this is illegal.

if this is all true rabid, what about the dog shot on a footpath on an extention lead cos the owner was out of sight. it was shot and killed 

Tina - what the law says, and how farmers interpret / ignore the law are two different things.  Presumably, it's the farmer's word against the dog owner's and not easy to prove either way.  It's clear that there are some farmers (no doubt a minority) who are quite trigger-happy and have issues with people and dogs on their land - such people exist, and whether they are right or wrong will not bring back a dead dog.  I have never had this happen to me, but know of cases where the police refused to get involved when a dog was shot (illegally, according to the laws that Rabid cites) saying it was a civil matter - one would think that if a firearm was discharged and a complaint made that this would be of concern to the police, and a criminal matter, but the police didn't want to know.

Personally, I have sussed out the farmers around here and while my dogs are well-controlled and actually give livestock a very wide bearth, there is one farm that I always make sure to have them on a lead as we walk through.  The farm doesn't even have livestock, only stud horses which are fenced in away from the footpath, but it's quite clear that the owners of the farm resent people walking through their land.  They have an aggressive Rhodesian Ridgeback which they allow to intimidate walkers and they drive up their half-mile drive (which doubles as a right of way) at 70mph as if to reinforce that it is their drive, and tough luck if your dog happens to get in the way.  It's irritating, but I wouldn't put my dogs at risk to prove a point or uphold a principle.

The legal situation is a lot more complicated than you imply, jackbox, so before making such statements as:

, you might want to do a bit more research.
1.  According to the Criminal Damage Act 1971, it is a criminal offence to threaten to shoot a dog - or to actually shoot a dog - unless a farmer believes his livestock are 'in immediate need of protection' and that 'the means of protection adopted, or proposed to be adopted, were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances'.  This means that a dog can only be shot if all other options to protect livestock have failed, including warning shots, shouting, chasing dog away etc:  Legally, these measures must be tried first, before it can be said to be necessary to shoot the dog.

Rabid thank you for taking the time to paste up this information, but I really have no need to do further research, as I have stated all along if the farmer/landowner believes his livestock are at rsik, he is within his rights to shoot what ever is worrying his stock.

And the moot point is simple,   the what ifs are irrelevant if your dog is shot and you "rightfully"  argue the legalities later.

what the law says, and how farmers interpret / ignore the law are two different things

Exactly!!!!!!!!

It's irritating, but I wouldn't put my dogs at risk to prove a point or uphold a principle.

Again the  point I am trying to make!

Also know of a friend, who's dog  worried sheep , the farmer in question did not shoot the dog but asked for compensation and gave the owner the option of rehoming the dog , because he  said , if it happened again,, he would shoot the dog.

Not all farmers are trigger happy , or will shoot without question, but  who wants to  put it to the test, not me,  I woudl rather keep my dogs on a lead anywhere aroudn livestock, and to be honest will give such places a wide berth.

As with the dog shot on the lead,    after the event is not something I wish to deal with.

>he is within his rights to shoot what ever is worrying his stock.

No, not so - as demonstrated with legal detail above, he is not necessarily within his legal rights to do so unless he has exhausted all other eventualities and failed to find the owner of the dog, and the only thing he can do to get the dog to stop, is to shoot it. 

Of course, with all laws, what they say and whether they are followed are two different things.  Not all laws in the UK are easily implemented, as with the ban on fox-hunting.  But just because they are not easily implemented doesn't mean people have the 'right' to break them.  I know of someone who at the moment is in the process of suing a farmer who shot his dog, for compensation of £2000 - as it was a trained gundog.  (This being how I know the above legal details.)

Of course, again, some people don't leave their houses because they are worried they will be the victims of a violent crime.  Despite the fact that this crime is illegal, illegal crimes still occur.  In the same way, a dog could be illegally shot by a farmer, and some people might want to avoid all farmers' fields, to avoid being the victim of this illegal crime.  What 'might' happen is not what this discussion has been about, until now, however - it has been about the farmer and the dog owner's 'rights'.

>Exactly!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure why you are pretending to agree with the OP here, since you have repeatedly claimed that farmers would be within their 'right' to shoot a dog trespassing etc.  If it wasn't a 'legal' right, then I'm not sure what other sort of right you could have been referring to...

I believe that the point jackbox is trying to get  across is that no matter what the legal rights and wrongs are of a farmer shooting someone's dog it must surely be best to not get yourself into a situation where that can happen and if that means having your dog on a lead on a footpath that crosses a farmer's field then that is surely better than having your dog shot.

Yes you might be in the right and the farmer in the wrong in a particular situation but it doesn't bring back your dog and your dog remains dead whoever is found to be at fault. The legalities can be addressed but the death of one's dog is final and cannot be altered. Yes one might be perfectly within their rights to have one's dog off lead but under close control but is it worth the risk? I for one always put my dog back on lead when walking any footpath that crosses someone else's land where crops or livestock may be in the field.

I regularly walk in an area owned by the Woodland Trust and there are sometimes sheep in the bottom fields. Notices abound saying dog walkers are allowed to walk in the fields but that dogs must be under control. My dog is usually very well behaved but I still put him on lead in the field whereas others don't - to me it is not worth the risk and I also respect the fact that the farmer's sheep mean as much to him as my dogs do to me.

100 per cent spot on Harley.

I'm not sure why you are pretending to agree with the OP here, since you have repeatedly claimed that farmers would be within their 'right' to shoot a dog trespassing etc.  If it wasn't a 'legal' right, then I'm not sure what other sort of right you could have been referring to...

Pardon!!!!!!! pretending what exactly!  where did that come from ????????,  

What I have repeatedly claimed is the farmer has a legal right to shoot a dog IF he deems it to be a danger to his livestock,   there is no other "sort " of legal right.!!
Arguing the legalities of  putting A,B, C into place  AFTER  your dog is shot is not going to bring it back.

Yes you can argue that the farmer has to do ,this that and the other,  and he cant shot a dog that strays onto his land for no reason,   and you may well be right,  and you may well manage to prove your case in the courts AFTER your dog  has been shot.

My point all along is , the law may be set down, but  how said (hypothetical)  landowner/farmer interprets said law,  is what really matter, and with that in mind,  its best to not put it to the test.

believe that the point jackbox is trying to get  across is that no matter what the legal rights and wrongs are of a farmer shooting someone's dog it must surely be best to not get yourself into a situation where that can happen and if that means having your dog on a lead on a footpath that crosses a farmer's field then that is surely better than having your dog shot.

Exactly my point.   if the farmer "claims" he was within his  legal right,  whether he was or he wasn't,   you will then have to prove he was in the wrong,  the end result, you may win, but your dog has lost!!!

Jackbox - many thanks for going completely off the original post!!!

The landowner is not a farmer, as far as I know he doesnt own a gun, he owns horses as a hobby!

Some years ago a show champion Whippet was shot. It was courseing a deer across a field but the landowner shot it!!

Sorry to go off topic but it is related of sorts

I had said that I had agreed to keep my dogs on a lead (in this livestock free field) to help keep the peace for the sake of the missing a poo pickup!

Goodness me, I wish people would read my posts, this is getting frustrating now.....

BarkingMad16, do you need or want poo bins in your area?  Your landowner might be the person to head that campaign if you do!!

We have one or two paranoid poo people in this village and they're brilliant at writing letters for the Village Magazine :)   ...actually I moan about poo too, partly because I don't want to be blamed, as a visible dog walker, for those numpties that leave bags in trees

I wrote to the council a few years ago asking for more bins............we got them! Maybe it was because a few of us had written to them?

To be honest, its the same scenario, you can put up bins but you can't make people put the poo in them! I have no problem approaching people who walk away from their dogs poo and offering them a bag!

> I had said that I had agreed to keep my dogs on a lead (in this livestock free field) to help keep the peace for the sake of the missing a poo pickup!
>
> Goodness me, I wish people would read my posts, this is getting frustrating now....

Yes I realise this as I did read all the posts :-) and am glad that the problem is sorted now :-) I myself wasn't actually replying to anyone in particular just agreeing with jackbox as to why keeping my dogs safe on footpaths is of paramount importance to me and why I put them on a lead in such situations even if I don't legally have to.

> I have never heard of a landowner shooting a dog, i am not saying it has never happened but it would i imagine be very few and far between.
>
>

happened to someone in our breed with a 7 months old pup that strayed from the public footpath following the scent of the fox that was feeding off the sheep carcase killed by dogs the previous night.  Pup spotted farmer so trotted over for a fuss and was shot dead, as the farmer had failed to spot the owner close behind (there was a rise in the land).

Makes me realise all over again how lucky Henry was to live long enough to die from his heart attack! In his younger days he twice got into sheep fields (first time did not know he would do that, 2nd time had no idea there was a field up at the side of the steep bank of the disused railway!!). He only rounded them up, but of course that would have been more than enough to get him shot if the farmer had been there, he was never allowed offlead in the Lake District, which we visit frequently, ever again! I often wish I'd taken him to one of those herding instinct test things, he was a Cavalier but if we hadn't been frantically screaming and trying to catch him it would have made the most glorious picture seeing him effortlessly round up 100 sheep in 30 seconds!!!!

Jackbox - many thanks for going completely off the original post!!!

I`m sorry for taking the thread slightly off topic, but it is kind of relevant to the topic of discussion, these things happen in threads, they go off one way and come back another,  someone posts something,and someone posts something else, and hey presto its off, I also think  that the "off topic"  posts have served a useful purpose, as has been seen here, some people are unaware  that a farmer/landowner  will actually shoot dogs if they feel they are worrying their livestock.

BTW.. I did read ALL of your posts, and am glad you have now got an response of sorts from the landowner.

Just tagging along here....

Ever thought that the landowner might prefer her poo to your poo.....?? Just a thought... :)

One does wonder if this landowner has some sort of problem may be a mental illness, drink or drugs.

Or ....... maybe The Landowner has a vision ...?? Theres a very fine path to tread between Genius and Insanity ..... and I should know that ....I've had some great Teachers in my life...... :)

tina s it most certainly is his land, it just unfortunately has a right of way over it (i pity anyone whose land has row and am thankful none of ours does!!! Cant begin to imagine what a nightmare it would be having seen it happen to other friends)

> Or ....... maybe The Landowner has a vision ...?? Theres a very fine path to tread between Genius and Insanity ..... and I should know that ....I've had some great Teachers in my life......

I must be very dense then as I can't even begin to imagine any sort of vision that would account for that sort of behaviour? You will have to impart some of your great knowledge and enlighten me.

When you buy land surely you know it has a Public Footpath across it... dont you?

>When you buy land surely you know it has a Public Footpath across it... dont you?

Yes you do but I imagine that some footpaths (and footpath users) are more of a problem to the landowners than others.

We have problems in our village where land has been owned and farmed by successive generations and they have stored up a lot of resentment about some footpath routes...

My parents have a Public Right of Way running alongside a section of their land and a local magazine some years back printed a walk with the route on the wrong side of the wall.  They still have to post ramblers back through/over the boundary from time to time, and at least once a year have a bobble hatted nutjob arguing the point despite very clear signage and a polite request!

Sorry had to jump of the forum quickly...

What I wanted to add or rather ask .. You can not suddenly be told "there is a ROW" or can you?

I can fully understand the irritation than can be caused. I have walked along a public foot path and collected rubbish as I went because the walkers before have dropped litter.. just an example..I have also followed walks in a book and it is more than obvious the route is printed wrongly... There is a house on a regular route we enjoy and  you can see where walkers go off the path and cut across their garden!

So I was not have a dig or anything...

Not replying to anyone in particular but tagging on at the end...

Last year i was walking my dogs (on the footpath) through a field with cows with their calves. Dogs were on leads, i ventured off the footpath as the herd were gathered in the middle, so i walked around the outside of the field along the hedge.
The cattle spotted me and my dogs and a couple started charging towards me and stopping, snorting, stamping feet etc. I was walking as quickly as possible, avoiding looking at them and trying to get to the otherside of the field as quickly as possible. These two cows then started for me, it was obvious they wanted me away from their calves- so i made a split second decision to let my dogs off their leads. I then had to throw myself over a barbed wire fence and thick hedge (which i ended up in the midde of) luckily, my dogs managed to scramble through the hedge to get away from them.

I did everything i could to avoid the herd, responsibility works both ways, the farmer should never have put his cattle in the field with a footpath through the middle- or at the very least he should have put warnings up that there were calves in the field as i would have avoided it if i had known.

> the farmer should never have put his cattle in the field with a footpath through the middle- or at the very least he should have put warnings up that there were calves in the field as i would have avoided it if i had known.

I don't think anyone can reasonably expect farmers  not to put livestock on the land they own. It is difficult when one starts off across a path and then spots the livestock but if this happens I usually turn around and walk back the way I came - have done that many a time if there are cows in the field and always try to avoid fields that may have cows with their calves in them.

It can seem annoying for us walkers but we do have to remember that we  spend a few minutes crossing the land whereas the farmer will spend his whole life looking after that land and the livestock in it. We do it for pleasure on the most part - the farmer uses that land for his living.

After last year's tragedies concerning dog walkers in fields with cows/calves I think everyone should remember it as an absolute rule - do not EVER take a dog into such a field.  Does not matter if there is a right of way, the cows have the right to protect their calves and see dogs as a threat.  From memory at least 2 dog walkers died last year and more were injured, including one high profile political gentleman.

turning around would have meant a 4 mile detour! It is usually the farmers dairy herd in this field with which i have never had a problem, his dairy herd that day were in the adjacent field.

I do agree it is unreasonable really to expect the farmer to change his grazing fields for the sake of walkers, but i think that there should be warnings up (as i have seen used by other farmers, with directions of what to do in case of problems encountered) I believe this is required if a bull is grazing in a field with footpath through.

At  the risk of sounding like I am a walking law resource, it is illegal for farmers to put bulls over the age of 8 months in fields with footpaths running through them. 

No laws about cows or other animals as far as I know.

>it is illegal for farmers to put bulls over the age of 8 months in fields with footpaths running through them. 

Not quite right; bulls up to 10 months of age are unregulated. Bulls of certain dairy breeds over 10 months aren't allowed in such fields at all; bulls of other breeds are allowed as long as there are cows or heifers with them. See #23.

Quite right, in Derbyshire it's common place to see bulls out in the fields with heifers. Sorry, don't know what breed they are. On the point of taking dogs into fields with cows & calves, I am pretty sure that the gentleman who got killed last year didn't even have a dog with him. I have been bought up in the country, I walk around farmers fields (on the footpath's) everyday, I am pretty confident around livestock, but don't take risks if the cows have young & sometimes will decide to change my route because of them.

I don't like walking through fields of cows and will avoid it at all costs (probably wouldn't do a 4mile detour though!) as I've found they tend to follow and stare at dogs, whether they've got calves calves or not. My old farmer neighbour, Emyr, always told me that if cows come at you and you've dogs, just let the dogs go and get out as quick as you can because the dogs will get themselves out and the cows will go for the dogs giving you time to escape.

Why is it that certain dairy breed bulls are banned from paths but others arent? are they known to be more dangerous?

Yes, qwerty - they are!

> Yes, qwerty - they are!

By and large, the beef breed bulls are usually placid and amenable, but some dairy breed bulls are the complete opposite and need careful management.

I have walked on public footpaths locally through fields where there have been cows & calves (dog on lead) and then to my shock seen there's a bull in the field too all ok though.

But it's steers and heifers we get the most problems with... they are young and flighty and not used to dogs, and sometimes think it's great fun to chase the wolfy-looking thing in their field....

MsTemeraire - we have Dexters and our previous bull was very placid. Our current bull is young and rather bouncy :)

I think I'm about to give some of our local dog walkers a bit of a surprise. We have a footpath across one of our fields which has gone a bit wild, with gorse etc. so we haven't had any stock in that area since we moved here 5 years ago.  We are just about to sort out the fencing round it then we can put our heifers and steers in that area and they can start the clearing process for us. Some of the steers have very impressive horns. I think I will put up notices on either end of the path that crosses the field, and inform walkers that they are there :)

> MsTemeraire - we have Dexters and our previous bull was very placid.

There is a small herd of Dexters around here - no pun intended lol - was only a couple of days ago speaking to their owner about them. I think they're gorgeous! I rememer passing their field a couple of years ago and seeing a newborn calf only an hour or so old, no bigger than my dog.  I hadn't known about the long-legged ones before, they only have one in their herd though, a red. Don't think they have theor own bull but of course whichever they use would be long-legged for the rest of the herd.

They also have a herd of Red Rubies and do have warnings on the gate when the bull is in residence! (He is not in any fields with access though).

My Dexter cows and heifers are all black and non-shorts (or long legged!) but my bull is red - again a non-short. We had our first ever red calf late last year which was a lovely surprise - after 57 black ones :)

My partner wants Red Rubies - I think they are a bit more placid than Dexters!

I would imagine people have to be careful about the wording of "warnings" - wouldn't want to imply that they thought their animals were dangerous!

> I would imagine people have to be careful about the wording of "warnings" - wouldn't want to imply that they thought their animals were dangerous!

To keep it on topic, this is a semi-rural area in every sense of the word - abutting the Dexters & Rubies fields are several housing estates, plus also there are some public footpaths crossing the land. The Dexters are the only ones allowed in the accessed fields - personal experience, I crossed the small paddock containing the Dexter and her newborn calf, dog on lead and being very cautious but she had no problem with that.

Next field though is the much larger enclosure where the Ruby bull is in residence almost all year round, with company. There is a "Bull In Field" sign on the gate - I would think to cover themselves if any local kids decided to walk through, not because he is inherently dangerous. They have other land away from roads & footpaths where he could be kept if that were so.

> I am pretty sure that the gentleman who got killed last year didn't even have a dog with him. I have been bought up in the country, I walk around farmers fields (on the footpath's) everyday, I am pretty confident around livestock, but don't take risks if the cows have young & sometimes will decide to change my route because of them.

Haven't had time to Google the exact details, but from Memory there were at least 2 deaths and 3 or more nationally reported injuries last year, all involving dog walkers and cows with calves at foot.  A lady in Derbyshire I think (she may have been a vet), a couple, all with dogs.  Then there was
David Blunkett with his guide dog (injured not killed) plus a couple of others.  Lots of radio and newspaper discussion about how some breeds, mostly dairy, are more likely to attack than others, and about how it is safest to let your dog go to fend for itself as it will probably outrun the cows, but to stay clear of these fields when walking with dogs, and to be aware of potential problems when walking even without dogs.

>> Haven't had time to Google the exact details, but from Memory there were at least 2 deaths and 3 or more nationally reported injuries last year, all involving dog walkers and cows with calves at foot.  A lady in Derbyshire I think (she may have been a vet), a couple, all with dogs.  Then there was
> David Blunkett with his guide dog (injured not killed) plus a couple of others.

I think the pervious poster was talking about this incident  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-11761237

The walkers didn't have a dog with them.

My hubby's been slightly menaced a few times when walking with our Yankee, just plain cows without calves. Luckily he hasn't had to run for it yet, but I do worry about it. Would it help if all fields had warning signs if there were cows in (sometimes it's a big field and you might not see a herd over the brow of the hill) or would that just be too awkward for the farmer to keep changing things depending on which field he'd put the cows in that day??

I have had a run in my a local very wealthy landowner.

It was ta about 7am one Saturday morning and was walking the dogs down the bridle path which goes through about 4 of his fields.

The end field usually has livestock in in (sheep and cattle) and so there is an alternative route which although is not a designated footpath has been used by the village for years ( I have used it myself for 13 years plus)

He had a right rant at me saying my dogs were out of control and I knew nothing about the countryside ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So I let him have his say and put him right on a few facts !! Before hand called the girls back to me and had them all sitting in a line listening very closely to the conversation !

I mentioned that the alternative route had been used for years because of the fact of the livestock and especially when they had cattle in the fields as they were always very skitty and didn't feel safe walking through the main pathway on my own or even with my daughter who at the time was about 5 and with me that day looking very confused why some mad old coot was shouting at us !!

Anyway I said I was quite happy to have a reasonable chat with him when he decides to talk to me in a calm and reasonable way ! !

Anyway two years later and I know many more people being abused I think they got the hint as there is now a proper gate and a bridge that has been erected through the other route so everybody is now happy !

He is renouned for being an arguementative person and at the time we were renting a house next door to his daughter and she apologised for his behaviour and said to ignore him !!

Yes you do but I imagine that some footpaths (and footpath users) are more of a problem to the landowners than others.

And then..... just try dealing with people who think its their right to walk up your private driveway to your properties rather than clamber over the styles with their dogs....but who point out that it shouldn't matter....! Well yes actually it does/might matter because how would they like it if you went to their house and walked up and down their drive..!

And then just imagine if you are trying to create a toxic free environment for your vaccine damaged dog.... who's now a nervous wreck (who received the same vaccine that killed two of your totally healthy puppies).....don't want the dogs absorbing any more toxins through their pads than neccessary.... but maybe nearby landowners.....have rented space to toxic producing businesses...who don't have any gullies or methods of containing diesel....oil...anti-freeze.... and have visitors..... who fire shotguns and let off fireworks and bangers...and test drive their cars down a tiny country lane....at speeds way over the speed limit....but you get the blame from walkers for all of this as well...because this is near your private driveway too....!

Nightmare or what...?? You could still probably keep this all quite peaceful and tranquil and under control... if it wasn't for the bloomin' public footpath over private land..... which then allows all sorts of people with a grievance to come snooping round your properties...under the pretence that they have a right to be there..! Even at midnight...! And assume and make accusations about all sorts of things....probably even murder... what with all the bones and body parts there might be lieing about the place :)

A polite good morning from either party eases the situation no end.....but then when people look at YOU as if YOU shouldn't be there....it escalates the tensions and leads to all sorts of bad feeling all round...people dogs and kids alike....

Even with clearly marked pointers... some would rather take a shortcut....than follow a road less travelled.....

In response to Karen, yes, that is the poor gentleman who I was refering too. Very tragic, what a terrible thing for his wife to witness too.

> And then..... just try dealing with people who think its their right to walk up your private driveway to your properties rather than clamber over the styles with their dogs....but who point out that it shouldn't matter....! Well yes actually it does/might matter because how would they like it if you went to their house and walked up and down their drive..!
>

We get that, clearly our drive way is private access only and there are NO footpaths through the farm itself, but some people will still try and argue over this with you :-(...I am polite to them, but tell them in no uncertain terms that there is no access for them and they need to take a footpath or bridleway at the top of the driveway, they may not like it, but technically they are trespassing.

I have found that simply saying "no" can cause lots of problems with the "we have the right" walkers.  A few years ago I was confronted in our car park by a bunch of them, equiped with cagoules, walking boots, maps in plastic packets etc.  This was not out in the depths of the country but on a small industrial estate in between Newcastle and Sunderland, so fairly urban!  our place had a longish lane coming in and round the buildings, ending in a car park at the back with no way out apart from turning round.  We were seperated from a neighbouring allotment/smallholding by a steep embankment and a wire fence, then on the other side of that was a path alongside a railway line, so quite a lot going on in a small area on a map :)

I thought I would save them from tramping right round the buildings to discover they had to come back and went over, smiling, and politely told the leader that "you can't get...."  I got no further, as he launched into a "we have the right to use this track" sort of speech, jabbing his finger at the map.  I tried a few times, till I twigged that the "can't" word kept setting him off, so at last managed to explain there was no way out, he was confusing the paths on the map.  No word of thanks, just a bit of foot stamping and map shuffling then they trailed off up the lane.

I'd have let waste his time for being such a poface.