Just back from a walk, not nice!! Walked through a public footpath with my 3 dogs off the lead, all staying very close to me as they always do. New land owners came charging over which spooked my young dog, he was pointing his finger at me and shouting. He said by law my dogs should be on a lead on his land. My dogs are under control I replied and as far as I was concerned I was doing nothing wrong. One of my bitches did a wee and he demanded I picked it up!! She did a wee I said, you can't pick a wee up! He looked at the ground and saw it wasnt a poo and then carried on shouting at me saying not to walk on his land anymore.  I reminded him it was a public footpath, there were no livestock there and we were just having a nice walk.  One of my others did a poo, I picked it up then was bombarded with more anti dog insults.  Is there anything I can do? According to some locals this 'new to the area' couple are abusive to anyone who walks on their land, they want to put anyone off going there again.  I will walk there again because I have every right to but will note down anything that is said and time and date it in future.  I live in a lovely area with nice walks all around us, you need to take this particular path to get to the hill which I walk alot. Any advice anyone?

The lead issue does depend on whether the land is 'only' a footpath (in which case dogs don't need to be on a lead) or whether it is Open Access land.  If Open Access, there are certain times of year (starting 1st March) and certain conditions which mean that dogs must be kept on a lead.  (Got to say that most landowners are lenient about this and don't mind dogs being off lead throughout the year, but the law does state they should be on a lead from 1st March.)

For more info about Open Access see:  http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/places/openaccess/default.aspx

If it is not Open Access and is 'only' a footpath, then the landowner, not you, is breaking the law - see this sentence:

[Landowners] are not allowed to harrass, intimidate (e.g. placing a fierce dog on public right of way) or prevent members of the public from using a public right of way.

Taken from here: 

http://www.environmentlaw.org.uk/rte.asp?id=207

If you were on a Public Right of Way the law requires the dog to be under close control ... not on a lead. You say livestock not present, but if there was then it might be reasonable for the landowner to put up a notice requiring dogs to be on lead.

Local Authorities are responsible for the maintenance of Public Rights of Way and dealing with issues, such as blockage and I should have thought obstructive landowners. It might be worth contacting them and seeing what they say. If you live within a National Park, then the National Park Authority is the one to contact. I'm not sure they'd do anything, but I think it's also worthwhile mentioning to the Police. Shouting at one day may turn to abuse/threats another.

25 years ago and I'd have been able to give you tons of advice, course of action, on this one, but the old grey matter has got clogged up with tons of other junk since I worked in that area :-( Sorry you've had a horrible walk.

Where in the country are you? I assume England as Scotland has the Right to Roam.

he just sounds like a bully. its not HIS land if you are on the public footpath. i would walk there but take my hub with!

>its not HIS land if you are on the public footpath.

Yes, it is his land, but the public have the right to walk on the designated footpath. It's a public right of way over private land.

i meant the footpath doesnt belong to him! he cant do anything to you unless you leave the path

Actually the footpath does belong to him. It's his land, just as if it would be your land if a footpath went through your garden, and it's his duty to maintain it.

According to law a dog must be under control when in public, and you have just said your young dog was spooked when not on a lead.  What if there had been livestock, you are not in control of your young dog.  The landowner was OT in his attitude but it is his land, the footpath is a very narrow strip, I think from memory they do not have to be more than 1 metre wide, and technically if your dog strays off that designated path it is trespass.  I don't see the problem with keeping your dog on a lead while crossing a footpath, it is not that much of a hardship.  Unless you had them off to let them run, well in that case they are not under control and are not staying on the designated path. 

you have just said your young dog was spooked when not on a lead.  What if there had been livestock, you are not in control of your young dog

The OP said the dog was spooked when the landowner ran over ... I'd probably be spooked too :-O

She also said there wasn't any livestock present, which means a dog on a Public Right of Way has to be under control not on a lead. Hopefully if there had been livestock present they would have been on a lead.

I'd be hard pushed to stick to a 1m narrow strip of a footpath running across an agricultural field :-) Let's face it, most FP signs point in a vague direction to a sign somewhere else in the far distance ... most of the time you end up weaving an interesting route in the vain hope you might see the other end of the FP :-D

> The OP said the dog was spooked when the landowner ran over ... I'd probably be spooked too :-o
>
> She also said there wasn't any livestock present, which means a dog on a Public Right of Way has to be under control not on a lead. Hopefully if there had been livestock present they would have been on a lead.
>
>

We have sheep, they can be virtually invisible under a hedge until something spooks them and they run out into the open.  I as a landowner would not be happy if someone was merrily walking their easily spooked dog off lead on a footpath over my land.  Recipe for disaster.  OP could have seen the landowner from some distance too, and from the posting heard him too, the dog should have been put on a lead there and then if it is nervy anyway or don't they care if the dog got so spooked it fled?

Most regular footpaths are worn and clear.  Those that are not you should and would know either by map, or local knowledge where the next gate / stile is and follow the most direct route not weave all over the field.  And if the field has been sown with a crop, or is set for hay, then an area of headland of 1 metre is to be left for crossing by the public.

Under control off lead is debatable in a court of law. 

> you should and would know either by map, or local knowledge where the next gate / stile is and follow the most direct route not weave all over the field

Most farmers I know would rather you walked round the edge of the field, then directly across the middle :-)

> Let's face it, most FP signs point in a vague direction to a sign somewhere else in the far distance

Very true, there is a bridle way going through my garden/land, the landlord told me about it when we moved in and there is a bridle way sign pointing down the long track towards my house, but for the life of me I don't know which bit of my patch it runs through after you get to the house and the landlord wasn't 100% either.

> Most farmers I know would rather you walked round the edge of the field, then directly across the middle

Odd farmers where you are then, as a farmer from generations of a farming family, I would rather someone take the shortest route, which in historical accuracy of footpaths is a direct line from A to B than have someone walk around the edge of a 20 - 30 - 60 acre field.   As would all the farmers I have ever known.  The exception being if ploughed / drilled / crop / hay are present then the headland is the legal alternative.   And yes again some do not follow a straight line due to topography but it still is as short a route as possible.  When footpaths were the foot highways of the UK people did not want to walk any further than necessary so why walk around the headlands when you could save miles in a straight line.

You accept that footpaths are there, people will use them.  It is when they see it is their right to use the land it crosses as a playing field, toilet for the dog and children, somewhere to dump litter, leave dog toys and tennis balls lying around (and golf balls) - all of which cattle love to eat, fly kites on - yes cattle love to eat kite tails too, and so on it shows a lack of manners and consideration for the landowner.

> I don't know which bit of my patch it runs through after you get to the house and the landlord wasn't 100% either.

It will be on the OS map for those coordinates.

Ooh dear, we seem to have got into a farming debate ... sorry BarkingMad16. Hold my hands up for apparently kicking that one off, that wasn't my intention, honest :-D However, there be more than just the one person who knows owt about farming on this 'ere forum :-)

Anyway, I hope you are feeling less stressed than you were and you get the help you seeking :-D

Thanks, I'll have to check my map later and find out

harkback - my dogs walk with me, they do not run off.  My young bitch jumped as he went towards me raising his voice and his hand, then she ran around the back of me, hardly out of control!!. My dogs are always under control, I have trained them all to a very high standard and being pastoral breeds they stay close to me and hardly leave the path. My definition of control is instant response to commands and staying close to me being of no nuisance to anyone or anything!! I have 3 dogs, I like them to have some freedom from leads, nothing wrong with that.

Lets just clarify the situation... my young dog was spooked, 1st time she has ever had someone be intimidating to her and her reaction was new to me and her! She was scared of 'him' as I was, not an everyday occurance. She is not a nervy dog, she is a normal dog. She isnt used to being bullied!  The field is square and flat, no sheep, he doesnt keep sheep, he keeps horses, easy to spot!! If I ever walk through livestock I always put them on a lead, I am a responsible dog owner.

Just to add - There were no horses in the fields!!!!

Where in the country are you? I assume England as Scotland has the Right to Roam.


Cheltenham, England

> Let's face it, most FP signs point in a vague direction to a sign somewhere else in the far distance ... most of the time you end up weaving an interesting route in the vain hope you might see the other end of the FP

LOL yes that's exactly how it is here, despite there being yellow markers at every stile, and me carrying a map with the rights of way marked on it. I carry a small pair of binoculars for bird/wildlife watching and many's the time I've had to use them to look for the next stile/gate & work out exactly which direction I should be going in!

To the OP - do you have a local ramblers association? It might be interesting to speak with them as you are probably not the only dog walker who's had run-ins with this chap. Who knows, he might have been a bit off with dogless walkers & ramblers as well. They would be handy to have on your side!

to MsTemeraire:
Went to the local pub for tea earlier, seems someone else has been treated the same, they also have a dog but this one stays on the lead, so its a dog thing with him. Also a friend of mine lives next to the field in question, they took my friends fence down without asking and replaced it with a lower one, now her retriever can jump it and until its made bigger (land owner says they can't change it) the dog cant go in its own garden.
Think it may be a call to the police if I have anymore trouble, I'm taking a dictaphone with me when I next walk there so I record it if he is abusive to me.
I have been reading up on the rights of way on public footpaths, I have done nothing wrong, seems I'm dealing with a bully.

Get in touch with your local parish counsellors and also local PCSO's about this. Someone needs to deal with this man, however if he is threatening and abusing you in a public place and you feel scared by his behaviour then call the Police.

I intend to keep walking there (with my husband next time!) I have 3 very docile dogs but you would like to think that most people wouldn't harrass a woman with 2 GSD's and a Rotty! He obviously feels he has the right to do this?  (little does he know that my dogs wouldn't harm a fly tho!)

> they took my friends fence down without asking and replaced it with a lower one

He can't do that, unless he owns the land and the fencing? But even so... You need to get as many people in your area together on this one, he sounds a right trouble maker and you will all need to stick together in order to deal with this man.
As for footpaths, we have lots running through our land, many people take detours off the actual path and walk through the fields, cattle or not, it makes no odds to us providing the cattle aren't harassed. This guys behaviour is not acceptable and as a public footpath you have every right to walk your dogs down there!!

I might be completely wrong here,but a friend who regularly walks in the derbyshire dales always told me if its a public footpath,you have as much right to walk it ,as if it was a pavement on a street,no matter whose land its on(me being a bit of a wuss,and reluctant to cross a farmers field)Its one of my biggest fears,being shouted at for being where I shouldnt be!

He can't do that, unless he owns the land and the fencing?

My friend definately owns the fence, without question.  She is wary of him and her husband tried to talk to him and he just turned his back on him and walked off!

Public Footpaths are always a hot topic for walkers and farmers alike and sometimes they find themselves on opposite sides of the debate.

Do speak with your local Parish Council as they generally have good contacts for reasoned debate with landowners.  We have a farmer on our PC who can be very useful to us.  The PC generally have background information which can be of help to both sides.  Your local council will have a 'Rights of Way Enforcement and Access Officer' who will be able to clarify your rights and contact the landowner to clarify issues for him too.

In the meantime do have a look to see what Dog Control Orders are in place for your area.  They will not apply to private land but it's helpful to see what sort of council you might be dealing with :)

You and your dog are both supposed to stick to the path and if the landowner thinks you are allowing your dog to roam he is entitled to ask that the dog/s be put on a lead.  He can get signs to that effect erected by the Local Authority if he wishes.

This field has a trodden path which I always stick too, as you enter the field over the style you can see the next style so its almost a straight line.

We recently had a terrible experience with a local land owner he was openly abusive and aggressive to us. He was even waving and pointing a long heavy metal pole at me.He followed us for about 10 mins hurling insane abuse at us. I reported him to the council of the area we were walking and was contacted by the local police. We were not the first to report him. I am not easily intimidated but he got me worried, I had to be really careful how I reacted because I did not want my dogs to react any more than they were already, they were ready to defend me for sure... AND mine were on leads too... In all my years of walking , rambling, distance walking this is the first time I have ever met any one like this. We often come across styles which are obviously sabotaged and food paths with what can only be described at threatening signs, but never have I actually had any confrontation before this episode.

Goodness me Bilbobaggins, thats awful, what a horrible experience.

Guys, you should stand up for your walking rights and your access to these places.  Councils are already reducing the number of places accessible to dog walkers, so let's all not allow it to get worse.

>a friend who regularly walks in the derbyshire dales always told me if its a public footpath,you have as much right to walk it ,as if it was a pavement on a street

This is right:  A road, a pavement, a highway, a motorway and a footpath are all *rights of way*.  That means you have the right to use that 'way' by law, and to use it without harassment too!

> He can't do that, unless he owns the land and the fencing?
>
> My friend definately owns the fence, without question.  She is wary of him and her husband tried to talk to him and he just turned his back on him and walked off!

Call the police, that's criminal offence and will be reimburse/replace.  it comes under vandalism for one thing.  It doesn't matter that he put something else up, he didn't have permission so has to replace like for like.

Think he's intimidating people just to keep them off his land.  Isn't there some sort of law that will remove the public right of way after so long/  Might be wrong.  i know you can make a right of way after a year if allowed to use daily.  My aunt had this and just stopped it in time.  He neighbours were using her driveway to bring bins out, they even put a gate in.  Turned out they were extending and would have lost their back access.  People Honestly!!!!!

>Isn't there some sort of law that will remove the public right of way after so long/

My understanding is that after 20 years of non use you can ask for the ROW to be removed but there are no guarantees.  Rights of Way are fiercely guarded and defended from landowners wishing to remove them and there have been some very high profile cases.  We have footpaths in our Parish that were dead-ended when the M5 was built and it's extremely difficult to do anything about them, even when they aren't used.

I'd be surprised if ROW can be given after allowed use of 12 months.  In my experience there would be other issues surrounding a case like this and even then I'm sure it's also a 20 year rule

> hardly leave the path.

But they DO - you have just said it.  You must realise that ewes with lambs, and other livestock with young may view an off lead dog as a threat, where as they seem to accept a dog on a lead WALKING alongside a person.  Even at a distance a dog running small circles around a person walking can to another animal look like a threat.  To their eyes that dog is herding the person. 

> I like them to have some freedom from leads, nothing wrong with that.

Go to a dog park, or rent a field with some friends and have your own space to let the dogs run free, or join a club that provides such facilities.  I did when I spent 5 yrs abroad, every day took 4 large breed dogs to a park early morning before work for a run and play.  If you have dogs and want them to have freedom then take some responsibility. 

Same here but he is right you say they are under your control but he cant see that. I walked our two hundred's of times up the same path and one day I got an irate farmer shouting, so I checkd and "under control" accourding to Hampshire County Council is on a lead. I dont walk there anymore.

> You must realise that ewes with lambs, and other livestock with young may view an off lead dog as a threat, where as they seem to accept a dog on a lead WALKING alongside a person.  Even at a distance a dog running small circles around a person walking can to another animal look like a threat.  To their eyes that dog is herding the person. 

The OP has said that if livestock are present then the dogs are on leads.

> Same here but he is right you say they are under your control but he cant see that.

But if the other dog owner the OP has met is to be believed, this man had a go at them also - and their dog was on a lead.  So this seems to me more like he has a problem with dogs and/or people walking on his land, rather than a problem with dogs being off-lead on his land.

I think regardless of the OP being right or wrong having the dogs off lead, the land owner had no right intimidating and shouting at her.

>Go to a dog park, or rent a field with some friends and have your own space to let the dogs run free, or join a club that provides such facilities.  I did when I spent 5 yrs abroad, every day took 4 large breed dogs to a park early morning before work for a run and play.  If you have dogs and want them to have freedom then take some responsibility.

This is so short-sighted and offensive!  I know of no dog parks near me, and even if there were one, I wouldn't want to walk through an area populated with other dogs. 

As for renting a field - why??  We have the right to walk on footpaths with our dogs - this is what they are there for, amongst other things! 

Sorry, but there were no livestock around and it was not a livestock issue in this instance.  It was merely about the OP being allowed to walk there with her dogs.  Luckily, we are in a better position than many countries 'abroad' in that we have *rights* to use these *rights* of way - without harassment too.

I walk a lot of footpaths and am carefull to have my dogs under control. However I would class off lead but close as under control, I never walk in fields with livestock and as most of out fields are planted always walk round the edges on the headlands. The headlands were I walk are at least 12ft wide and nice to walk. Not had a problem yet. I feel this man was just being offensive and had no right to get angry.  If there was no livestock in the field and your dogs were close by and not disturbing crops then he has a problem not you. I walk in an area that has been abused by horseriders in the past, I have seen them galloping across fields with footpaths not bridleways. The new owner of the fields I use has just padlocked all the gates and put in new stiles to the footpaths to try and stop this bad practice but I see that someone has broken down a style in the most popular riding spot, it crosses a nice flat grassy field and they use it like racehorse gallops, I have had one or two close shaves with horseriders going to fast on Footpaths, not nice. Bridleways are different and I try to avoid if possible so I for one am gratefull the land owner has done this.  Footpaths/rights of way are for our enjoyment and if treated with respect should be for everyone to use. I would like to see the right to roam come in in the UK as well as Scotland.
Aileen

> The OP has said that if livestock are present then the dogs are on leads.
>
>

As I said it is not always obvious livestock are present.  The OP could be half way across a field before they notice that their loose dog/s have scared the living daylights out of ewes with lambs, or a mare and foal into a fence.  Fright and flight - natural instinct.

To use analogy how would the OP like it if every Joe public walking their dogs off lead along the pavement past the OP's house, and Joe P let their dogs run into the OP's garden, have a couple of circuits, leaving a few skid marks and in the process frightening the OP's cat, or even a dog that may be there, out of the garden into the road.  Or even if there are no animals in the garden just instead having a quick scoot around.  Or Joe P stands by the gateway throwing balls up and down the drive for their dogs to play fetch.  The average UK pavement is about the same legal requirement in terms of width as a public footpath but Joe P just wants his dogs to "run free" and the OP's garden happens to be handy.  It's is after all on a few feet from the pavement, and they have great recall.

I am not disputing the landowner in the original post was correct to have that response, but maybe he is just fed up to the back teeth of people taking advantage, and the Michael out of a public right of way and went beyond breaking point.

Unfortunately it is the attitude of "I have the right to regardless" that is going to bring a compulsory lead law into the UK sooner rather than later.

> I have had one or two close shaves with horseriders going to fast on Footpaths, not nice.

Horse riders aren't allowed to use footpaths (see # 10). They are allowed to use bridleways, and it can be difficult to tell the difference.

>As I said it is not always obvious livestock are present.  The OP could be half way across a field before they notice that their loose dog/s have scared the living daylights out of ewes with lambs, or a mare and foal into a fence.  Fright and flight - natural instinct.

But we're not talking about a dog on the other side of a field, on private property and off a footpath - we are talking about dogs literally on a public right of way and with their owner!

>To use analogy how would the OP like it if every Joe public walking their dogs off lead along the pavement past the OP's house, and Joe P let their dogs run into the OP's garden,

This is not a suitable analogy to what's happening - the dogs are not roaming around the landowner's property and are where they are entitled to be.

Sure, we can invent all kinds of heinous crimes which people can commit whilst walking on footpaths and then debate the rights and wrongs of those, but we would be doing nothing other than wasting our time because none of these issues are what the OP is describing here.

I agree - even if the landowner thought the dogs were not sufficiently under control, he should have politely asked that she put them on the lead and I daresay she would have done so. There was no need to be so rude and agressive!

i would just like to say be careful, i remember reading of the dog that the farmer shot and killed on a lead but it was an extention lead and the owner was out of sight

harkback - PLEASE read my posts, you are assuming all sorts of situations, this is what happened!!

No livestock in the FLAT field, post and rail fencing so no horses could 'hide' under it! LOL.
No sheep are kept in those fields..EVER!
He owns horses - the field was EMPTY
My dog is not NERVY.
I would NEVER walk my dogs off lead in a field with livestock or on a public highway!

You have directly blamed me for having the attitude of 'having the right regardless' which is offensive to me. I ABIDE BY THE LAW, not make it.

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't put this on here now, but do thank everyone who has read my post accuratley and offered support. hardback, you are the reason why sometimes its better not to post things.......talk about go off on a tangunt (sp)

I agree - even if the landowner thought the dogs were not sufficiently under control, he should have politely asked that she put them on the lead and I daresay she would have done so. There was no need to be so rude and agressive!

As I did out of courtesy only last week when walking through a park where children were playing, a father asked me to put mine on a lead as his daughter was scared of big dogs, I did ofcourse. He patted them all and said 'thank you'

> a father asked me to put mine on a lead as his daughter was scared of big dogs, I did ofcourse. He patted them all and said 'thank you'

How refreshing to hear of real-life manners :) They do exist out there!

Manners take mere moments, but don't they make such a HUGE difference to everything :)

It may be wise to make sure your dogs are on-lead next time you go through the horrible mans field, at least that way you can clearly be seen to have your dogs under control (I'm not trying to suggust you don't have them under controll) and therfore he has no grounds to get at you.

UPDATE!!

Just walked past the footpath (not on it), the owners wife was outside (she was present yesterday) She asked if she could speak to me.  She apologised for her husbands behaviour and that they had received some complaints about him over the last few weeks.  After we talked she asked me if I would keep my dogs on a lead to limit the amount of dog poo that may get accidently missed by me if they were off the lead.  I agreed as I thought it was a reasonable request for someone who has more than one dog and to keep the peace.

Thanks to everyone who offered sound advise and support. harkbad, maybe you should re-read posts in future before replying to be sure of the facts before commenting.

Horse riders aren't allowed to use footpaths (see # 10). They are allowed to use bridleways, and it can be difficult to tell the difference.

The signs for a footpath are yellow arrows and for Bridleways are blue arrows (that is how it is around here not necessarily everywhere)