I quoted your line on bull breeds then I said...

The issue for me is danger to humans from the 'rogue' pitbulls

I actually agree with you re. pitbulls.

However, I think when you quote a line about "bull breeds" and then go on and condemn pitbulls some people are going to infer from that that the points you make about rogue pitbulls apply to bull breeds in general.

My comparison between bull breeds and sighthounds that you quoted was in the context of attacks on pet animals not people.   

Great we agree :-)

It seems that most people, even those who own/have owned pitbulls agree. The law already exists to eradicate them from the UK (over time, not mass culling!), so the question is how do we enforce it.

The problem is that you never will, as two legal breeds such as as a labrador and boxer could produce offspring that could be deemed pitbull type.

Here's a sighthound related human fatality - http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/2007/June2007/IW-greyhounds0607australianfatalattack.pdf

Its not an attack by a sighthound, its an attack by 14 sighthounds and wolfhounds

> Here's a sighthound related human fatality

Well done, so after extensive searching you found one fatality, in Australia, 4 years ago and by a pack of 14 crossbreed dogs - doesn't really compare with the (unfortunately) almost regular pitbull deaths does it :-)

> The problem is that you never will, as two legal breeds such as as a labrador and boxer could produce offspring that could be deemed pitbull type.

Personally I've looked at all these 'deed not breed' 'anti DDA' sites and looked at their list of photos and I manage to pick the pitbulls out first time every time, there may be the odd dog that is not a pitbull that is caught up by an inexperienced police officer - but I'd rather that than the alternative we have at the moment.

It wasn't extensive at all, i just clicked on this favourite and searched for greyhound :) http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/AllDogsBite.htm, I didn't, however realise, that more than a single dog wouldn't be acceptable in answering your question I have never heard of a single human killed by a sighthound

Pitbulls have been responsible for less than a quarter of UK dog related deaths in the past four years, not my definition of regular:

x 2 pit bull types.
x 1 Jack Russell
x 3 Rottweilers
x 1 Staffordshire Bull Terrier
x 2 German Shepherd Dogs.

A dog doesn't really have to be real pitbull to be seized under the DDA, it just has to have 60% of the characteristics of a pitbull, so the interpretation is relatively open. Many dogs features in the media that have been deemed pitbulls by the police do not look like proper ones to me. More info here - http://ddawatch.co.uk/DDA_Detail_and_practice.html.

For me there's two problems with BSL, firstly, the massive effect on innocent dogs based simply on their appearance and secondly, once you start where do you stop? In the USA, there are currently 75 breeds that are banned or have restrictions on their ownership, which includes the Borzoi. http://www.dogpolitics.com/my_weblog/2007/05/list_of_banned_.html

'........most breeds would be put off with a shout, or a kick in the ribs if it came to it...'   That is so very true Chamsong.   A very well written post and I agree with all your points.

My Golden Retriever was bitten by a Staffy one morning in the park when he was minding his own business and playing with a couple of other dogs.   The Staffy ran up to him and I could see immediately by the expression on his face that he meant 'business'.   He ran straight up to my dog and grabbed him in the neck.   I kicked him (I was wearing wellies) and hit him hard on the back with the extending lead and then I hit him in the face to try and release him and then he bit me too.   Eventually his owner ran up and took him away muttering that 'hes never done this before'.

On a different day, in a different park, with a different Staffy, a couple of thug-like looking youngsters - same thing.   I had a can of Pet Corrector there that time and sprayed it in his face and then he let go of my dog.   They yelled abuse at me - for using the spray yet it was less harmful to their dog than their dogs teeth in my boys neck.   I wondered why it was okay for their dog to bite my dog but not okay for me to put a stop to it!

I love dogs, Ive had dogs all of my life and had never had any fear of them.   I hate anyone who is cruel or unkind to animals and anyone who hurts them in any way but I must admit though that I absolutely hate that breed of dog.   I dont see why those of us with friendly dogs cannot walk peacefully with out dogs without fear.   These fighting dogs cannot be trusted not to suddenly turn on another dog or person for reasons known only to themselves.   There is something in their genes that is a part of their breeding and that will always take over.   My little lab loves swimming - any puddle and shes in there!   Its a 'lab thing' - fighting is a 'Staffy Thing'.

We all love our dogs but in my ideal world fighting breeds would not exist.  

My little lab loves swimming - any puddle and shes in there!   Its a 'lab thing' - fighting is a 'Staffy Thing'.

i agree to a certain extent but my dogs were rushed at the other day by a snarling lab that looked like kujo! the owner vaguely called its name and then put her head back in her car and put her wellies on leaving me with her dog standing and growling and rushing at mine. luckily it didnt attack and i was able to walk off (mine were on lead) but if it had attacked i couldnt have done a thing about it.
yesterday a car pulled up at the park 3 staffs ran out and ran up and down fighting each other for 10 mins whilst owners sat in the car. eventually the 2 white ones attacked the black one and the owner got out of the car and shouted and then took them all away thank god. its really scary

Pet corrector is a brilliant idea for an emergency like that.

I posted a few weeks ago asking if anyone would agree to E Collars used on aggressive dogs like these, if it would stop them attacking our dogs.

Interesting that no one has answered my question. I know there are only one or two members who agree with E collars, but in this situation no one has disagreed or agreed, yet normally the mention of E collars and there are lots of very strong opinions against.

> Its a 'lab thing' - fighting is a 'Staffy Thing'.
>
> We all love our dogs but in my ideal world fighting breeds would not exist.  

On another slant the most aggresive dogs in our area are 3 goldies.  They are walked off lead and the owner generally manages to grab them if she sees another dog in time (very quite country lanes).  However not long ago she did not grab them and they went full on attack mode at 3 of my young dogs who are always in public on leads.   I managed to punch two of the goldies hard on the nose, and I mean hard, and the owner grabbed the 3rd but did not even apologise.   I only got mine away by ducking into a field and fortunately apart from one puncture onthe neck there was no other damage, mentally or physically.  If it had been an older person who could not react they would have killed another dog.  The same day on a local beach a greyhound was attacked from behind (it was on a lead) by two off lead black labs who each got a haunch and tore the poor grey almost in half.  The vet was not able to save it.  As usual the police did not want to know. 

> I posted a few weeks ago asking if anyone would agree to E Collars used on aggressive dogs like these, if it would stop them attacking our dogs.
>

My reply would be no, no and no again - I don't agree that an ecollar should be used in any circumstance whatsoever - and with most people not having the split second timing one would need to use it at the right time there is every possibility that the collar would aggravate the problem.

But this is going off topic a bit and I don't want to see the thread closed so you might be better off starting a new thread if you want to debate the idea - although I think most people on here who are against the use of these collars have put their views over so many times in the past that there might not be very many takers for a debate :-)

regarding e-collars and dog on dog attacks in public places.
No I do not believe this would work as the type of idiot who lets their known to be aggressive dog loose in public would be far too irresponsible to be allowed such a piece of kit as they would only use it to torture their dog and make it worse.
only exception would be if you could put it on the owner of said aggressive dog and zap owner every time their dog is out of control-they might then take the situation more seriously.

I have to agree. I don't think such a powerful dog already pumped up with adrenaline would even feel the e-collar anyway to be honest. Having heard about my friend's greyhound (and greyhounds are real wimps!!) tear through barbed wire on a deer chase without so much as a squeak until he was actually attached to it by his coat?!! It was only once he had calmed down a bit that he realised it hurt quite a bit and his leg and chest were shredded!!! Poor baby :o(
So now imagine a big powerful dog bred to tolerate pain and I think it could actually intensify a bite were it to be used. I also agree that people's timing is of absolute importance and you're better off putting it on irresponsible owners...!

> you're better off putting it on irresponsible owners...!

well said :-)

your better off putting it on the irresponsible owners....!

I agree with that too.

So what is the answer complusory muzzleing of aggressive dogs? and do we do that by breed or wait untill its hurt someone. if we wait who is going to order the muzzleing when we can't get the police interested?

Its  a tough one this it goes round in circles. It that long since the last post on it I'v forgot where we were up too!