What a horrific story, these two dogs came into the house and while the woman and children were hiding in another room (quite rightly), the dogs bashed the borzoi pups cage and somehow managed to get in to it and tore the dog apart :-(  A pit bull and a staff cross apparently (of course).

I'm devastated about this, not just because it's my breed and a youngster that was in a cage so wouldn't have a chance to run away or defend himself. When will the DDA actually be enforced. I don't think there is a problem with it, just that it isn't enforced until there is an incident. There shouldn't be any pit bulls, irish staffs or their crosses in this country any more, yet I see them every day in town.

Read this the other day, I'm with you, what will it take? I'm sick to death, really sick to death of reading about and hearing about another dog attacked or killed usually by a Staff type dog, absolutely sick of it! I hate to tar a breed, but isn't it time to really clamp down on who can own a dog on the DDA now.

Sadly the breeder is a friend of mine on FB, posted this a week ago.

What really annoys me is that the Police just weren't interested even though these dogs were originally going for children and then pulled the Borzoi out of it's cage and injured it so horifically it died some time later through its injuries.

I agree Carrington, and worse of course when it's a person killed or bitten. We have to accept that dogs will do what they have been bred for generations to do. My hounds can't help chasing something that moves, my collies round up the hounds. A dog bred to fight, bred to keep attacking no matter what personal pain it is in......

Who is the breeder Diane? Sorry I didn't realise it was an old story, my niece read it in the metro today and text me about it.

I read it in the Metro today too. Said that officers have seized the dogs and were injured themselves in doing so.
We all know that th papers do get things wrong

There shouldn't be any pit bulls, irish staffs or their crosses in this country any more, yet I see them every day in tow

I so agree. Something needs to be done.

Very glad I live in a rural area and not London -but even here on our quiet country lane we see some decidedly dodgy looking dogs being walked that quite possibly would fall under the DDA due to being "of the type".

How awful. :-(

I also live in the country, but we also see these type of dogs, I think that Staffys are getting worse even the ones who are brought up properly IE training classes, socialized with other dogs. I have heard of a puppy party when a 12 week old staffy has attacked and bitten another puppy.

These dogs are bred to kill I hate to say it, but we are seeing more and more of this.

Even with muzzles on they could still do damage.

I have read on hear that some members are frightened to walk their dogs on their own. That shows the state of this country when people are frightened of other peoples dogs.
The day will come when we law abiding people with have to carry some kind of weapon to defend ourselves and our dogs from these dogs. I already carry a walking stick, and I bet others are carry something with them as well. 

> I have read on hear that some members are frightened to walk their dogs on their own. That shows the state of this country when people are frightened of other peoples dogs.
>

It has a knock on effect for multiple dog owners like me too.

In the past i could walk all the girls in them country park, meet up with lots of people happily walking theirs,a dn often would have  a dozen or so dogs mooching about playing etc, oldies occasionally telling off young ones, or bitches telling Young males to mind their manners, but no-one was worried and the dogs all learnt to get on and it was nice and relaxed.

Now I have more or less stopped taking the girls to the country park regularly and do more and more road walking as it just isn't worth the hassle, so many people are now afraid their dogs will get attacked and pull their dogs away from any contact with others, which of course means there are more and more canines that are socially inept. 

The cause attacks by fighting type dogs, some owned by thug types, but others often owned by naive families who don't realise the gladiatorial propensities of their badly bred (deliberately for the wrong characteristics) dogs.

As an owner of bull breeds I have to say yes this is absoloutely tragic and the culprits should be dealt with accordingly, but you cannot tar all theses breeds with the same brush.
I have bull terriers, a dog also originally bred to kill, i also live in a small village and people cross the other side of the road when out walking. Why? because of the bad press that the bull breeds get. My st bernard x was attacked by a border collie that went for her throat, my dog was on a lead the collie was not. In the local town a guy was walking his greyhound and it was killed by a lab x also on a lead.
My point is my bull terriers are pussy cats, my male in particular is very lively and loves to play but is very submissive.
My dogs have been to training classes and they have been off lead with staffs at the class, but it was a weimeraner and a golden retreiver that caused a ruck.
The reason these terrible terrible news stories make print is because it has bull breeds or crosses involved. Other dogs get killed and people get bitten by all sorts of breeds but they never make the news.

I am very sorry for the borzoi and the owners and breeders it was would have been horrific, but I get annoyed at the band wagon of ban ban ban bull breeds.

we should be looking at deed not breed.

Absolutely agree Brainless, it's a vicious circle.

The thing is that any dog of any breed can attack another dog or a person, but most breeds would be put off with a shout, or a kick in the ribs if it came to it. Dogs originally bred for fighting were bred to keep on going no matter what and these characteristics carry down through the generations. You can get a bad dog in any breed, a fluke bad apple, a 'bad' dog of a fighting breed is a terrifying thing. I don't even think that it's necessarily all down to the wrong people breeding them, look at show collies - most have several generations of dogs that have never seen a sheep, yet they still round things up.

In my opinion there is no place in our society for these dogs.

Not so long I would of agreed with you. But it is true these bull breeds are getting worse, we see it all the time on threads, 'my dog has been attacked by a Staffy'.

I agree with deed not breed to a certain extent but I think the breed such be taken into account.

I have been thinking for a while now that maybe staffs such be muzzled in a public place. In some European countries all dogs are muzzled and no one thinks anything of it. Don't think I want that to happen, but would be interested to see what others think.

> we should be looking at deed not breed.

I disagree. The problem with deed not breed is that a tragedy has to happen before something is done. It's like saying you don't have to wear your seat belt until you've had one accident because chances are you're a careful driver and won't need it.

In the most comprehensive study ever of serious dog attacks on people, including deaths it is obvious that while any breed can bite some breeds because of their breed characteristics are inherently more dangerous.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

> The thing is that any dog of any breed can attack another dog or a person, but most breeds would be put off with a shout, or a kick in the ribs if it came to it. Dogs originally bred for fighting were bred to keep on going no matter what and these characteristics carry down through the generations. You can get a bad dog in any breed, a fluke bad apple, a 'bad' dog of a fighting breed is a terrifying thing. I don't even think that it's necessarily all down to the wrong people breeding them, look at show collies - most have several generations of dogs that have never seen a sheep, yet they still round things up.
>
> In my opinion there is no place in our society for these dogs.

I couldn't agree more & feel very strongly about this. 
Due to a completely unprovoked attack by a staffy on one of my dogs, my poor dog nearly ended up being killed by it.  The attack was completely out of the blue, which even though i know a fair bit about their body language took us by surprise.  This will always stay in my memory & i believe that staffy shortened my dogs life.
If i ever see a staffy when out with mine i always turn & walk away....i just never want to witness another attack & would rather play safe than sorry.

I can't imagine what that family is going through, especially the little girls--they will hear their puppy screaming forever. The owners of the attacking dogs should be jailed for years.

I disagree. The problem with deed not breed is that a tragedy has to happen before something is done. It's like saying you don't have to wear your seat belt until you've had one accident because chances are you're a careful driver and won't need it.

It is SO refreshing to see somebody share my view on this. I am fed up with the mantra "Deed not breed". If a Labrador attacks somebody the simple fact is, chances are the injuries will be less serious than if  a Pit Bull type does it. Quite apart from the fact it's far less likely to do so in the first place...... It's not like we are talking about pedigree dogs bred by responsible owners -we are talking about the illegal dogs and their crosses that are bred ONLY for the wrong reasons.

In the most comprehensive study ever of serious dog attacks on people, including deaths it is obvious that while any breed can bite some breeds because of their breed characteristics are inherently more dangerous.

Very true.

I actually don't believe we should become complacent on dog on dog attacks either, none of us want our dog attacked or ripped to pieces by under socialised breeds all seemingly from the same type of dog group, why should it even be thought acceptable, the law needs to change, my dog and family dogs are part of the family why should their lives be any less valued? There is a world of difference between the odd dog fight to what is frequently happening now.

All dogs on the DDA list should have a high insurance premium, never mind the return of the dog license we need insurance for the victims of such attacks therefore if they injure or kill a dog or God forbid a human they are insured, can be prosecuted and the victim can get compensation, many of these dogs are literally walking weapons, look at Thompson1's thread the dogs owners had no money, so will get away with not paying any vets bills or prosecution.

Owners of these dogs should pay a high insurance or have their dogs destroyed, I know that sounds harsh, my dog hasn't been attacked, but I'm sick of hearing about other peoples dogs being killed and hurt. It's unacceptable!

One of my nieces got a lovely blue Staff last year, she's gorgeous and will be very well socialised with our family dogs, but I know she wouldn't mind paying a high premium to have the breed she wanted, I know it tarnishes the good owners and loving friendly dogs out there, I know this, but what else do we do? The DDA is not policed enough, people are not being prosecuted enough, whereas victim dog owners are more likely to prosecute if a dog has insurance.

These dog on dog attacks can't keep going on, they really can't.

> If a Labrador attacks somebody the simple fact is, chances are the injuries will be less serious than if a Pit Bull type does it.

That's the crux of the matter. The Clifton study shows that of the 1182 people pit bulls (and pb x) seriously attacked, 110 of them died, so around 10% of people seriously attacked by a pit bull died! Labs and lab crosses attacked 39 people in the same period of time, 2 of them died however one was a 2 year old child and the lab had rabies and the other was 1 of a pack of 23 dogs that attacked a woman, no way of telling if the lab even bit her.

thats a truly sad story, but it boils my blood that people buy into the myth of the "devil dog" breeds.

people on this forum should know better frankly!

thankfully, soon an alternative to the tabloid induced DDA is on the cards. Lord Redesdale's Dog Control Bill will repeal the DDA, quite rightly too, and instead take each dog's actions on merit. ALSO, it will make owners responsible for their dog's actions, including aggression toward other dogs and animals.

> and instead take each dog's actions on merit

It is reassuring to know that once a dog has killed a child, dog whatever it will be dealt with. Wouldn't it be better though to reduce that risk dramatically by actually enforcing the original DDA? Must people die before we decide a dog is dangerous, isn't that closing the stable door after the horse has bolted?

If all pitbull types were neutered, insured and muzzled (as they should be according to the existing law) there would be far fewer incidents of this type and eventually we wouldn't have any pitbull types in this country.

they wont need to kill a child under the new legislation. "behaving aggressively" will be enough to impose sanctions on the owner.

The problem with that is how do you define 'behaving aggressively' is it a bull breed running toward someone snarling or a friendly Labrador jumping up, either one could cause injury.

The problem with these laws is innocent dog's being killed by the so called law, which has happened before.
The new law wants it extended to private property so that means if your dog bites someone who comes into your garden uninvited the dog will be killed by the law.

If that dog was say a Border collie who nipped someone's heels; OK it might be unpleasant but no one with any sense would complain about it, on the other hand it was a bull breed that ripped out a big muscle and lamed someone for life, would be serious and needs action taken. So the breed must be considered. The BC has bit but thats its herding instinct or it has a bite inhibition so no harm is done but it could still be considered to some uneducated judge to be "behaving aggressively"
Does it deserve to be killed? no of course not.
Neither does the bull breed, but maybe such be for everyone safety, and the person who is badly injured may think differently.

This new legislation might turn out worse than the one we have now.

But there will still have to be an incident of some sort for a report to the police. That's not good enough.

The last couple of children to be killed it has been family members dogs hasn't it, if the DDA was enforced properly those dogs wouldn't exist and those children would still be alive today. Ellie Lawrenson's grandmother is unlikely to report her own sons dog - until it killed her granddaughter that is, much too late then.

On a pro pit bull site it has this little gem, designed to make you realise that there is nothing wrong with the breed.

2.) Approximately 50 children in the US are killed every year by their cribs - 25 times the number of children killed by Pit Bulls.

so, pit bulls only kill 2 kids a year, well that's ok then!

Also of course the figures are debatable, a quick google shows this...

Mom's Pit Bull Kills Daughter | NBC Philadelphia
22 Feb 2010

Toddler killed by San Bernardino family's pit bull | Inland News ...
28 May 2010

Pitbull Kills 2-Year-Old Boy in California - CBS News
22 Jul 2010

Pit Bull Kills Newborn Boy in Fla. - Crimesider - CBS News
26 Oct 2010

2-year-old Rusk County boy killed in pit bull attack - Longview ...
11 Nov 2010

I'm sure there will be more, this was only a very quick look, to be honest I find these stories far too depressing to spend much time reading them.

Hmmm I normaly steer clear of this sort of debate not because I own a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and have done since mid 70's and adore the breed. But I steer clear because I simply do not know the answer, my dogs have always been people friendly and under control (on lead normaly) and off lead where I can see.

I agree with a previous poster I do not walk through country parks etc on weekends/school/bank holidays; because you have no idea who is out and about, and having a Staff if anything kicks off in a  social dog group my Staff will be to blame hence we do not mix now.
Sal is approaching 9 and we used to mix happily but not now.
I see young men with Staffs and more often than not the Staff is a X with something Bullmastiff/Boxer/Bulldog/SharPei (Lord help me) and also out and about now with American Bulldogs and Akitias........and I avoid them like the plague.

And all sorts of people regardless of their breed appear to be totaly ignorant of the fact their dog is miles ahead behind to the side of them. 

There is a small yet growing number of people in our society who breed/own dogs as a weapon and use them in defence or attack mode. I read an advert the the day for EnglishBull Terrier x American Bulldog pups 9 weeks old and the ad actually said "showing excellent guarding skills" For Lord sake..............they are babies. People do not always realise what the dogs they own are capable of. They think they are in control when in actually fact they have raised a "bomb ready to explode" at any time. And of course the dog is to blame.
I do not know the answer but I do know that not all bullbreeds are dangerous. If I thought for one moment I could dissuade the people who do not deserve their dogs from owning my beloved breed I would do so. But I can't and to be honest I can only see it getting worse.......it appears to me the average run of the mill Staff is not "tough" enough for certain groups of people and they mix them........making them bigger etc etc.................so in effect they now have Crossbreeds..........and we have the new breed in the media "Stafford type!"  

I own a breed apart (IMO) a Staffordshire Bull Terrier of good breeding and a joy to own, she is a PAT registered and active dog. Who I adore but oh how I wish my breed were known for their good points of which there are many.    

>>>I think that Staffys are getting worse even the ones who are brought up properly IE training classes, socialized with other dogs<<<

maybe the unsocialised, untrained ones with idiot owners are getting worse but please dont tar all with the same brush
Some of us own well adjusted dogs and some of us are responsible owners!

That's a really good post Kazz.. and I'm much in agreement with you.
I too, responsibly own two SBT's, and like you and many many others here, don't know the answer :(

>>thats a truly sad story, but it boils my blood that people buy into the myth of the "devil dog" breeds.

people on this forum should know better frankly!<<<

Well said Stick

I like many others here don't know the answer, but the problem is getting worse. The ones who are responsible have nothing to worry about.
I notice one person says she keeps her SBT on the lead, which is responsible, I have seen some that are on lead and their owner's struggling to hold on to them as another dog goes past.

I feel sorry for the people with nice Staffys, please don't take it personally, but this is a growing problem that such not be ignored.

people on this forum should know better frankly!<<<

Well said Stick

Let's put it like this then: How many people in the UK have been killed by MY breeds, as opposed to by Pit Bulls? A big fat zero.

Responsible sbt owners are just as frustrated at the thought of idiots owning their breed as other breed owners encountering such dogs Jocelyn :o(

I'm coming at this from both sides...
As an ex Farmer's boy APBT owner (he was PTS aged 17yrs old, 2yrs ago)....
And as a responsible dog owner of large breeds now.

When I was a VN (many many years ago) my bosses patched up the injured dogs, and I was called to set theatre up for an incoming bitch who had been attacked by a male APBT and was 2 days before her due date. We delivered her pups, patched her up and Rocky was given to me at 8wks old as a thankyou by the owners. We were members of the local dog training group and he excelled in Flyball, advanced obedience and agilty. He also mentored youngsters. Not once did he ever show any aggression towards other dogs,cats, sheep, horses or small furries.

However I do agree that the time has come where I feel there is now no place for these types in todays society as constant inbreeding and breeding for the wrong attributes has completely wiped out the original dog and its characteristics leaving a dangerous and unpredictable dog in its wake, bred by morons and owned by the similar or even worse, the naive. I can't envision anybody who actually seeks out these "types" putting any work or training into their dogs which in my eyes only leads to one outcome.

I think that Staffys are getting worse even the ones who are brought up properly IE training classes, socialized with other dogs. I have heard of a puppy party when a 12 week old staffy has attacked and bitten another puppy.

I am sorry but this is not true.  My Stafford is 9 next birthday, well bred, brought up properly socialized with other dogs, and I take offence at the fact you tar all owners of Staffords with one brush. I do not generalise I take people and dogs as I find them I do not avoid Boxers just becaue my Sal was attacked by one. I do not use my car to run over all bike riders because I was knocked off my feet by one.You cannot generalise in this way if sensible dog owners like yourself do this what chance do the general public have of understanding.
And a 12 week old puppy attacking a puppy at a puppy class (maybe the story has a grain of truth in it, maybe an urban rumour gone astray and gained legs).............. but above all if a pup was bitten by another pup then it is a badly run pupy class I would say. 

> If that dog was say a Border collie who nipped someone's heels; OK it might be unpleasant but no one with any sense would complain about it

But they do.....
I've posted before about my dog whose chase instinct was provoked by two teenagers cycling very fast and close behind us on the pavement, when he lunged & nipped at one and tore a hole in the hem of its jeans.

Now while you & I understand it was herding kicking in, the kids' parents didn't and neither did the police when I had to give a statement under caution, sec 3 DDA "dangerously out of control in a public place". It was dropped... but not because my dog wasn't "behaving dangerously" [in their eyes]... but purely because the kids shouldn't have been cycling on the pavement, and no other witnesses came forward.

I went away to do a little bit more googling, wondering if I was being unfair to pit bulls, you can't argue with the facts, the actual numbers of people killed by these dogs but maybe most dogs in the US are pit bulls therefore of course most people killed by a dog would be killed by a PB. But no the most popular dog in the US is the Lab.

In this country the average person is not allowed to carry a gun around with them, or a machete. I might like to carry a gun and of course I would never shoot anyone with it, but I'm not allowed to - why? Because I might lose my temper, do something completely out of character, be so provoked that I might shoot someone so for public safety I'm not allowed to carry a gun around. I could apply for a licence to own a gun, I would have to have a proper gun cabinet for it, and agree to use it and transport it in certian ways and I would have a background check ran on me and a character assessment.

Maybe it's about time we started viewing some breeds in the same way as other weapons like a gun? A car, like a pit bull, can in the wrong hands be a dangerous weapon so we have to pass a test before we can drive one....

You only have the google 'facts' on what the media CHOOSES to report.
The chihuaha attacking a baby wouldnt prove to be as good a story or probably sell as many newspapers

i have no dought they are, it is dangerous for us all.

But some reponsiable really nice people are buying these breeds as pets (not as status dogs) and then finding out what they have got when the dog has attacked someones elses dog.
It is not just idiots who are owning these breeds.

Look at some of the threads and you will see that.

Sad to see so much Bullbreed bashing, yes something needs to be done, but surely it's a people problem.
I've long held the belief that prospective dog owners should go through some sort of training and test, you can't drive a car without taking lesson's, why not the same for dogs.
I can see where people are coming from with the banning of certain breeds, but it really won't make a blind bit of difference, the sort of people who like to have an aggressive dog will just get into another breed, there's already an increasing problem with Cane Corso's, a rare breed in this country not that long ago. These people will find another type, and if they can't, they'll just cross breed until they come up with something as unhinged as they are.

Their dogs can only attack if their dogs are off lead- if they are responsible then their dogs wouldnt be off lead in the company of others

Jocelyn I am frustrated by the fact complete morons are ruining my breed. I wish to hell they would leave my breed alone but the thing is they could then latch onto yours. The difference between the average Staff and the ones brought up as weapons is as great as distance between Earth and Pluto. I am frustrated and annoyed by the stories in the media, and upset for the people and animals attacked.

I am also annoyed by people who pass my Staff on lead who is either lying at my feet or standing by as people pass us with a yapping Westie, CKCS, Lab etc etc all desperate to get to my dog I pass a lady with a bassett who has to wrap the lead roud a lamppost/tree anything to hold her dog back from other dogs. My dog is on her lead and I have the lead with my little finger and she would not react. Not all Staffs are dog aggresive and yes youngsters are exhuberant like all breeds but....I understand your concern. But do not know the answer and all I find myself doing is smacking my head against a brick wall.  

> You only have the google 'facts' on what the media CHOOSES to report.

That was just a quick google to see if the pro-pit site was correct in saying they 'only' kill 2 children a year. A 60 second google found 5 children killed by pit bulls last year alone, there may well be more it makes no difference how the media report it.

> The chihuaha attacking a baby wouldnt prove to be as good a story or probably sell as many newspapers

Nope it wouldn't be as good a story as the child probably wouldn't be dead.

> Their dogs can only attack if their dogs are off lead- if they are responsible then their dogs wouldnt be off lead in the company of others

So which is it Lel, are the dogs safe or not, the above statement would seem to suggest that they are not.

Responsible sbt owners are just as frustrated at the thought of idiots owning their breed as other breed owners encountering such dogs Jocelyn :o(

Well said.

Well I have to say I bumped into a very unlikely character at the bus stop the other day, who told me the dog I had with me was a Malinois (it was, and I just about fell over backwards!!!).... then proceeded to show me photos on his phone of his 'purebred' American Pit Bull Terrier. I had an interesting conversation with him as I tried to convince him it was probably just a staffy cross or at most an American Staff but he was adamant.

Then my sister, who has been a local dog walker for the last 6+ years and knows just about every dog in the town, told me she knows him, and he DOES have an APBT which is on the official register, i.e. tattooted, muzzled in public etc. Apparently it was an ex-fighting dog, and he took it on and has done an amazing job re-socialising it and bringing it round and it's now the nicest dog you could wish to meet. The guy himself is the kind that will talk (and talk!) to almost anyone in the street, and the polar opposite of what you'd think a status dog owner would be.

It was a lovely story, just thought it would be nice to air the other side of the coin for a change.

I do not want a child to be hurt let alone killed by any dog and my heart plummets to my stomach when I hear of a dog attack no one expects it to happen and when it does it is heartbreaking.

i think that anyone looking to own a dog capable of doing damage should go through an exstensive vetting process. as another poster said its a terriable thing to walk your dog with fear of another dog attacking it. i own an akita, another breed getting bad press but i really think so much of this stems from bad breeders and bad owners.

Their dogs can only attack if their dogs are off lead- if they are responsible then their dogs wouldnt be off lead in the company of others

So which is it Lel, are the dogs safe or not, the above statement would seem to suggest that they are not.

Can I jump in here and say as I believe a responsible Stafford owner I avoid letting my dogs off lead in the company of others, because whatever kicks off the in the dog group as I have said previously be it the "cocky" Springer or the mouthy Chihuahua then the Stafford will get the blame. I will not let my dog run loose with other dogs I would rather keep my dog safe and on the lead.
You see we cannot win on lead we own aggresive none friendly dogs off lead we own dogs we are not keeping on lead and therefore get tarred with the aggresive brush.......................See statements like yours above cause me to wonder how I can be classed as purely a dog owner not an "aggresive dog owner" we cannot win can we.?

> so much of this stems from bad breeders and bad owners.

OK, so if we agreed that bad breeders and owners were the problem, you'll never get 'bad' owners to do a course, register their dogs. People who have pit bulls are already breaking the law. An easy answer would be to enforce the DDA and in a few years time we wouldn't have any of these dogs for 'bad' owners to get their hands on.

Problem is that would only work with the responsible owners who would probably be socialising and training anyway. It won't work with the idiot yobs who just want a 'status' dog, and there's no way with the sheer numbers of Staffies and their various crosses that it could be regulated.