At the risk of saying something to upset someone I am going to post what my experience is.
I own a GSD cross who looks exactly like a GSD. She's a old girl 11 years old to be exact and is a rescue dog.(is not important in the first part of the story but is towards the end).

I grew up with a staff and she was a fantastic dog. A ex breeding dog and a great family dog given the life she had.
I finally got my own house and decided to get a staff of my own. I didnt want to line the pockets of back yard breeders I went to a lady who was "rehoming" her staff because she had tiny dogs and she felt she didnt have the space for the staff who funny enough was named Ellie like my childhood staff. I was assured she was dog friendly and if the owner didnt find her a home she would be put to sleep. I took her on only 16 months old, I had a foster JRT at the same time who was very dog friendly. They got on great...no problems.
Ellie had a obsession with my partner and one night as I sat down next to him on the sofa she got hold of my arm with her teeth almost broke the skin. I managed to get her off me without to much damage and we got her to training lessons.

5months after we got her she was in the garden playing with our jrt and my partner when she got hold of the jrt by the throat and I herd my partner shouting I knew it wasnt good. I ran to the garden where she had him by the neck and poor bob (the jrt) wasnt moving. We did everything to get her off him, hitting her with a brush, throwing treats over the other side of the garden, everything. I thought he was dead so I walked off to ring the dog warden and she dropped him and walked in behind me like nothing happened. I put her in the crate as bob was my priority and got him to a vet luckily the vet thought he played dead as he had stitches in the ear and to the neck but no major damage. Needless to say I gave her to a guy who was a dog training by trade and apparently she did great.

My issue was that hse was so powerful...she had shown no dog aggression before that day.

Last year I moved out to the country because I was sick of me and my dogs being chased and threatened by idiots with staffs, my poor old girl (gsd) many times had to run home with me to prevent dogs attacking her. At one point we walked past a take out and outside was a off lead staff, the owner saw us coming and picked the dog up above his head so that "if he dropped it would give us time to run" while it was snarling and baring its teeth at me, my poor old girl and my tiny shelties.

Needless to say I moved after 2 years of it I was so scared I didnt want to walk my dogs for fear they would get hurt.

With all the hundreds of breeds of dogs that exist, would it really be the end of the world if staff/bull types were phased out completely?? It's not as if there are no other breeds of dog to choose from.  I think it's getting beyond a joke now and as long as there are these breeds of dogs there will be idiots to exploit them.

but if you got rid of the staff/bull types the people exploiting them will just move on the the next breed. if all bull breeds suddenly disapeard people who use them as wepons or status symbols will move on to guarding types, make those breeds disapear and they will move on to any large breeds, make large breeds dissapear and they will move on the the biggerest medium dog breeds as so on untill we see thses people walkng with packs of chuhuahs attacking other animals and people. Yes i think that the more powerfull breeds are not for everyone but removing the breed will not solve the problem just move it to another type of breed.

Sadly i beleave the only sure way to prevent dog attacks 100% would be to phase out dogs compleatly (in not saying that should happen, just that i dont think it is possible to compleatly prevent it 100%), people who want dogs as wepons and status symbols will not comply with any lincences, legerstration or requirments, the fact that we still have pitbulls and dog fighting here is proof of that. Maby improving legerstartion we allready have and making tougher punishments for people with dogs found to be dangerous may help but i dout it would ever solve it.

but if you got rid of the staff/bull types the people exploiting them will just move on the the next breed. if all bull breeds suddenly disapeard people who use them as wepons or status symbols will move on to guarding types,

But I believe there is something about the bull breeds extreme dog on dog agression which is not found in other breeds - GSD, BSD, Mastiffs etc will guard but they won't behave like Bull breeds do when near another dog.

I think it would be a crying shame if Staffys and other Bull breds were banned or ceased to exist as a breed -but I DO think this aspect of their temperament MUST be changed if they are to survive.

This whole notion of the 'Gladiator dog ' is just wrong - breeders need to acknowledge this and breed away from this type of temperament

Yvonne

Out of interest, (I know your story is a common one bluemerlemum) all of you who have been intimidated by these dogs or had your dogs attacked or chased by these type of owners dogs, do you complain to your local council/police? If your frightened or worried to go to your local parks, dog walking spots etc do you voice your worries to your council? Because I don't think that most people who are scared do, I know the police are often less than useless but the complaints are logged, if the council get enough complaints they are obliged to do something.

The main problem as well as the DDA not being acted on and enough dog wardens in the first place is that we tend to talk to each other but not put the problem at the door of local councils. It takes a minute to send an e-mail or letter to the authorities about your worries and if everyone did it, maybe the problem would lessen immensely too.

> but if you got rid of the staff/bull types the people exploiting them will just move on the the next breed. if all bull breeds suddenly disapeard people who use them as wepons or status symbols will move on to guarding types,

It's the combination of temperament, tenacity and bite power that makes these dogs so dangerous.

When I was a young teenager I used to fight with my brother all the time, as kids do, I taught my collie to attack him (I was 13!). She was very happy to play the savage growling monster and would go charging off barking at him when I told her to 'kill Ronnie'. She never actually did him any harm though. My point is that you can teach any dog to attack, and some dogs just have undesirable temperaments but no dog is as dangerous to their own kind and to people as a pit bull.

> The main problem as well as the DDA not being acted on and enough dog wardens in the first place is that we tend to talk to each other but not put the problem at the door of local councils. It takes a minute to send an e-mail or letter to the authorities about your worries and if everyone did it, maybe the problem would lessen immensely too.

I agree with complaining, but it does need a change of attitude in the police and local authorities too. The law exists to change this situation, it just needs to be enforced.

Out of interest, (I know your story is a common one bluemerlemum) all of you who have been intimidated by these dogs or had your dogs attacked or chased by these type of owners dogs, do you complain to your local council/police? If your frightened or worried to go to your local parks, dog walking spots etc do you voice your worries to your council? Because I don't think that most people who are scared do, I know the police are often less than useless but the complaints are logged, if the council get enough complaints they are obliged to do something.


I have complained in a variety of ways but not much response, so far. There is an additional problem here in that some inner city councils have a  rather hardcore anti-dog brigade and they would love nothing better than a good hook on which to ban all dogs from free running in parks, or ban dogs full stop. You'll appreciate a complete ban would also be cheaper for many councils to implement and possibly to police. Another potential area of contention is a push in some areas to turn parts of the park into school playing fields, some cultures dislike dogs intensely and this is yet another layer to consider. So there is a fine balance that has to be struck in terms of complaining, in the inner cities at least, though I agree we should all try to make our voices heard and we should try to push for better enforcement of legislation that seeks to protect the decent dog owner.

Please believe me I hate the thought of breeds being phased out but I'm not a staffy hater, I've kept them myself and I'm not one of those people who picks up their dog everytime they see another dog or anything like that.  We keep working terriers, working spaniels and GSD's and they are all more than capable of fighting with each other and we've had some nasty ones.

We had a bull x patterdale last year and the difference between her bite power and the average working bred terrier was phenomenal.  We had her PTS as we'd become frightened of the damage she had done and then she locked onto one of our sweetest spaniel bitches and it took 3 of us to unclamp her jaws, it was unreal.  I've felt the bite power of all these breeds and been a guinea pig for Police GSD's in training using an arm shield, I know what it's like to be bitten and I really know what it's like separating different breeds of dogs in a fight and there is nothing compared to to finally removing your own staffy from your mum's welsh terrier's leg to find she'd broken both leg bones in two :-(

A friend of mine had what he thought what a lovely kind Staff dog that he kept as a pet along with a few working type terrier breeds that he worked.  He had to come rushing home one day to his distraught teenage daughter who had witnessed and tried to stop a huge fight, the staff had killed three of his terriers (and one was a really big strong dog) and she'd tried to stop him :(  The dog was PTS.

Nothing compares to the bite power and sheer determination not to let go of these breeds.  These are fighting breeds remember not guarding breeds they are a different ball game... all dogs have teeth and are capable of damage to one degree or other but nothing compares to the sheer power, hold and rip of bull fighting breeds.  Sorry but as much as I love many, many of them that I've met, nothing can change my mind and I certainly would never ever own one other dogs, had too many incidents now.

The show Staffie arguement is a bit pointless as it's not really show folk that are the problem is it?  It's the thousands and thousands of back yard breeders churning them out who've probably never even heard of a dog show.

I agree that the problem is largely backyard breeders, but I do think there are show folk that need to wake up and smell the coffee too. After all, pups do go to non show homes and I have certainly witnessed a fair few dog-aggressive staffs in the show world, as well as many well managed and socialized staffs.

Bite force is dictated by size of head, width and length of jaw. So plenty of non-bull breeds will bite with greater force than some bullbreeds. There's a nice summary of findings here http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201005/dog-bite-force-myths-misinterpretations-and-realities and a video of some dogs being tested here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-9UNEDbXAc

And I can totally understand Staffy owner's backs getting up at the suggestion they shouldn't own their Staffy's.  The trouble is they are not the problem is the millions of idiots who are effectively owning a loaded gun with one of these types of dogs... How on earth can you ever continue to let the good owners carry on owning them but eliminate them from the rest of the population from being allowed them?

I accept some of the statements in above link but I'm speaking from my own experience and you can't get away from the fact that fighting breeds are physically and maybe more importantly, phychologically a very different beast.

no one has answered my suggestion of complusy muzzleing for Bull breeds in public, any one any thoughts on it?

I don't like the idea at all. What happens if one of the "safe" non-bull breeds aatacks a defenceless muzzled bull-breed? I saw a labrador savage an SBT last year at dog training. Was easily stopped as they were both on leads but would be very different if the lab was off lead in a park. Muzzles can also be quickly removed and put back on for the nefarious who would want to use their dogs for intimidation, violence etc.

Bite force is dictated by size of head, width and length of jaw. So plenty of non-bull breeds will bite with greater force than some bullbreeds. There's a nice summary of findings here http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201005/dog-bite-force-myths-misinterpretations-and-realities  and a video of some dogs being tested here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-9UNEDbXAc

Yes, that is true, but the motivation to hang on, once latched on, is not so much to the fore in most breeds we encounter day to day. That, allied to a considerable bite force, and a strong motivation to treat other dogs as prey, makes for one heck of a mixture.

Yes thats true, there is no prefect solution to it. Maybe the best solution is the one with least risk.

don't like the idea at all. What happens if one of the "safe" non-bull breeds aatacks a defenceless muzzled bull-breed? I saw a labrador savage an SBT last year at dog training. Was easily stopped as they were both on leads but would be very different if the lab was off lead in a park. Muzzles can also be quickly removed and put back on for the nefarious who would want to use their dogs for intimidation, violence etc.

Have to say, as someone who has been considering muzzling as a sort of desperate interim measure, until legislation is properly sorted and applied, the point you make is spot on and yes, one might also run the risk of making the muzzled dog more aggressive. It also struck me that someone was bound to invent a 'cosmetic' muzzle that looks secure but easily flicks off. Nonetheless, dangerous dogs as in currently banned, under DDA, are meant to be muzzled, and I have seen pitbulls/pit types that are, so.....

It really wouldn't be that hard to create another breed with the same characteristics as a PB, it's been done once, it can be done again under a different name, how long does it take for a dog to be bred true to type ? 10 years ?, don't underestimate how determined some people are to create the type of dog they want.

I wouldn't actually mind a law for muzzling, but I would want to see one for all breeds if it was going to come in.

Some more thoughts. People tend to have negative reaction to muzzled dogs as they assume they are aggressive which could compromise socialisation. It could also prevent proper interactions with other dogs again compromising socialisation. Not particuarly great for the dog, owner or even the public should that dog get loose one day. Not to mention compromising breathing, ability to drink and accept treats etc. My dogs would end up in something ridiculous looking like this http://www.dogue-de-bordeaux-breed-store.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=177 Also what happens if the muzzle needs to be removed in public if the dog is choking for example? This once happened to an APBT on the Exemption List and was spotted by the police and subseqently PTS. I would guess any APBT and types that are muzzled are probably on th list.

Yes, as ever, the decent owners would have to suffer for the misdeeds of the dodgy brigade. The one thing that really could be implemented though would be to insist that all dogs are kept on lead in a public place- aside from parks, at all times. I do believe that a lot of the status type owners would find it too troublesome to have the dog leashed and it might be a small deterrence, but worth doing anyway.

> Bite force is dictated by size of head, width and length of jaw. So plenty of non-bull breeds will bite with greater force than some bullbreeds.

But it's not just bite force Snoringbear, it's the combination. How many videos do you see of pit bulls hanging onto tyres, or sticks while being swung around, most breeds would fall or let go. Also it's the tenacity of the breed, in dog fights the pit bull would need to keep on fighting no matter how badly hurt it was, there would be no mercy shown for a dog than ran away when in pain. Dogs would continue to bite or hold the other dog even when mortally wounded. The prized dogs, the champions, the ones who would be bred from where the ones that never ever gave up no matter what. Now think for a minute, we know every dog has the ability to snap, imagine a 'bad' pitbull attacking you, it's not going to stop for anything - that's what is dangerous about them.

> what happens if the muzzle needs to be removed in public if the dog is choking for example?

In 40 years of owning dogs I can't think of a single case of one choking. Sure they've picked up some undesirable things that I've had to fish out their mouths, but if the dog is muzzled this isn't going to happen is it :-)

> Not to mention compromising breathing, ability to drink and accept treats etc. My dogs would end up in something ridiculous looking like this [url=undefined]http://www.dogue-de-bordeaux-breed-store.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=177[/url]

One of my dogs wears a muzzle while off lead and while racing, he's perfectly happy in it, he can pant, drink and accept treats.

Yes, it is not so unusual to see sighthounds with high prey drive wearing a muzzle, there's one in my park. I guess it's more of an accepted practice with these kind of breeds, given racing greyhounds have to wear them anyway.

By the way, slightly off-topic but racing greyhound/whippet muzzles fit quite a few other breeds too - a nicer looking alternative to the "surgical pink" basket ones LOL

Mine has a very strong lightweight black nylon one with metal rivets, has lasted very well and doesn't present such a 'dangerous dog' image - which is good, because he only wears it as he is unpredictable around some other dogs when off-lead.

First, I want to say how awful it is that a wonderful borzoi puppy could be torn apart in its own home like that. No puppy deserves to be harmed, let alone killed, by a dog that doesn't even belong inside the home.

However, I just wanted to clear up a couple of misconceptions about American Pit Bull Terriers. These dogs are not for everyone and they certainly do have handling issues. They can be raised to accept the dogs in their own home even if they won't necessarily accept dogs from outside their own family. I know a family that has several APBTs, a large mixed breed, and a pet quality Yorkie. The smallest APBT, the mixed breed, and the Yorkie all run together on the farm all day long with hardly a quarrel--and most of the quarrels that get started get started by the Yorkie. The APBT, Cowboy, has never harmed either of the other dogs and the APBTs all get along really well. These dogs are not many generations from fighting stock, but they are purebred, they are show dogs, and they are working farm dogs. Along with the farmer's border collie, they used to herd the cows and the pigs before the farmer lost most of his stock during Hurricane Katrina. They still keep the small herd of cattle from breaking through the fences into the yard and keep the various animal pests and predators under control.

American Pit Bull Terriers have been recognized by the United Kennel Club (State of Michigan, USA) since 1898, when UKC founder Chauncey Bennett assigned registration number 1 to his own dog, Bennett's Ring. They are loyal family companions, excellent stock dogs, and are terrific in performance events. Some of the best obedience dogs I've ever had pleasure to meet were APBTs. I train my Toy Fox Terriers for weight pull with the dog mentioned above and Cowboy pretty much ignores them. The only time he doesn't is when they stand and bark at him; then he has an expression that telegraphs, "Are you kidding?" Some of the APBTs we train with are "hot;" that is, they have strong prey drive, but they don't seek out dogs to kill them, like the dog in the opening post did. That dog seems to have been an extremely predatory dog, most likely nearly feral and looking for something to kill and probably eat. It could have been any breed of that size and the damage would have been the same. APBTs don't have locking jaws and they don't have more crushing pressure in their jaws than other dogs of their size. What they do have is the terrier drive and focus. My Toy Fox Terriers, none of which weigh more than 7.5 pound (3.40 kg) will hold onto a toy while they are being lifted off their feet. They love all toys and if a toy is bigger than they are they will shake it and drag it at breakneck speed as if it were a bunny they were hunting. I have one 5 pound (2.27 kg) male that will pull all the fuzz off a regular-sized tennis ball and bite it in half in just a half an hour if he's allowed. They also have high prey drive and would kill all of my chickens if I let them try. They are terriers and I make no excuses for them. Not every person is suited to own a terrier of any size--just as I am not suited to own a Mastiff. But the only terrier I've ever been attacked by was an Airedale terrier, who attacked my Labrador when I was walking him on leash in the road in front of the Airedale owners' property. It took three grown men and a crowbar to get the Airedale's jaws from around my Lab's head--one of the Airedale's teeth had actually begun to penetrate Jeff's skull.

The two biggest problems that face the APBT in this country is that 1) people identify most unknown medium-sized dogs with a short coat and a blocky head as an APBT and that 2) they are the favored dogs of gangs even over here. Number one is a problem because dogs as disparate as a Dogo Argentino, a Labrador mix, and a Cane Corso have been identified as an APBT. My own mixed breed, Jack, has been called a "pit mix" by people who see him, even though he's taller than an APBT ever would be, and shaped more like a retriever than anything else. He's mostly black but he's got brindle markings in his tan points so *obviously* he's a pit mix.  Number two is a big problem because people perpetuate myths to make them sound scarier, you know, like the locking jaws thing. The thing is, when the Rottweiler first became semi-popular in this country, the same myths circulated about them, too.  It's fear of the myth that turns into fear of the dog.

Anyway, I won't bother you folks any longer and I'm not here to simply write an apologia for the APBT. We have issues over here, just as you do over there. People who need dogs to make them feel tough and superior over other people will always find a breed to abuse. Sadly, even if all bully breeds were banned from the face of the planet and were all eradicated in a single day, the same fools would go back to abusing GSDs or Dobermans or just pick another loyal terrier breed to twist. I'm open to any courteous discussion or questions that you might want to pose.

> They can be raised to accept the dogs in their own home even if they won't necessarily accept dogs from outside their own family

That does nothing to reassure me, even the very best handler will eventually drop a lead by accident. Someone may leave a door open. Dogs will sometimes 'get loose'. So therefore even the very best owner of a well bred pit bull can't guarantee the safety of a dog it may inadvertently come across?

I just don't think there is place in our society for such a dog. The law (in theory) agrees with me, it just needs to be enforced.

If they were completely uncontrollable, they wouldn't be able to be shown and they certainly would not excel in obedience, where (in the US) the "long down" is a group exercise in the UKC (the AKC does not recognize them as a breed, although the American Staffordshire Terrier is pretty much an APBT in dress clothes). I have never known a well-bred and socialized APBT to attack a person without being attacked first, just as I've never seen them pick fights in public--although they will not hesitate to fight back if jumped on first. They are, like most terriers, territorial and given to some degree of same-sex aggression. I would not say they are angels, but they are not the demons they are made out to be, either.

> They are loyal family companions, excellent stock dogs, and are terrific in performance events. Some of the best obedience dogs I've ever had pleasure to meet were APBTs.

I would assume that they do best in a home where they have a 'job' to do then?

> People who need dogs to make them feel tough and superior over other people will always find a breed to abuse. Sadly, even if all bully breeds were banned from the face of the planet and were all eradicated in a single day, the same fools would go back to abusing GSDs or Dobermans or just pick another loyal terrier breed to twist.

I agree :( Sadly, the irresponsible idiots will always find a way to be irresponsible idiots :(

I would assume that they do best in a home where they have a 'job' to do then?

That is 100% the case. Cowboy and the other dogs at the farm, as I said, had been used as stock dogs. Every one of his APBTs has one or more weight pull titles, with the exception of Cowboy (who has just started training). All are UKC champions. A couple have been therapy dogs and visited local nursing homes. Most of his dogs are older and are retired/retiring now, but he's never had an incident in the decades that he's owned his dogs, not even when the meter readers have appeared on his property unannounced.

I will say that APBTs should never be left unattended with small children--even though they typically love children, they are strong dogs and do have a strong prey instinct (infants are usually attacked by such dogs because of the prey-like noises they make) so it's best not to take a chance. However, I would never leave a TFT alone with a small child, nor would I leave my larger mixed breed or rough collie with a small child. NO dog is "safe" to leave with a small child; too many things can happen before you can intervene.

But it's not just bite force Snoringbear, it's the combination. How many videos do you see of pit bulls hanging onto tyres, or sticks while being swung around, most breeds would fall or let go. Also it's the tenacity of the breed, in dog fights the pit bull would need to keep on fighting no matter how badly hurt it was, there would be no mercy shown for a dog than ran away when in pain. Dogs would continue to bite or hold the other dog even when mortally wounded. The prized dogs, the champions, the ones who would be bred from where the ones that never ever gave up no matter what. Now think for a minute, we know every dog has the ability to snap, imagine a 'bad' pitbull attacking you, it's not going to stop for anything - that's what is dangerous about them.

In no way do I condone dogfighting but I'll make this point. The game-bred champions that you mention would have been bred never to attack a human. That is absolutely essential as the dogs are separated repeatedly during the fight, washed and dried by a stranger prior to the fight and anything that redirected or bit a human would be killed. A champion needs to win 5 fights, a grand champion 10. The dogs which have the deep gameness to do this would never be paraded in public and would live in yards behind closed doors. You will never meet one. That level of gameness is lost quickly, it's completely unnatural as it prevents a reproduction. The Cordoba Fighting Dog is a good example. You're also making an assumption that because some of these dogs were\are bred for fighting that every member of the breed has an equal level of gameness and aggression. That's pretty much the same as saying that every dog breed from show champions will be a champion themselves, or every labrador will be an incredible retriever etc. You might find this article an interesting read http://www.pitbullguru.com/InheritedDogAggression.pdf The dogs hanging off branches, tyres etc proves nothing more than they like hanging off them. I'm not aware of any breed that doesn't like tugging games. It certainly is not a reflection of a dog being game, that can only be guaged by game-testing the dog. The dogs that we have problems with here in the UK are poorly bred and poorly owned, they just happen to be a certain type. It's a people problem not a dog problem.

> I said at the beginning that SBT are getting worse it must be breeding.
>
>

I have generally found that the well bred Staffs I meet at shows and know are actually far less reactive and generally pretty good.  OK when there are a lot of them at a show the occasional dog eye balls another and it tends to set others off.

I find the same happens with any group of dogs if something kicks off they all bark or whatever.  If one of the pups squeaks as Mum gets in and out of the whelping box the dogs in the other room all react.

Some breeds are dog dominant but nto inclined to scrap or fight and only react if directly challenged (thinking the Malamute mentioned earlier).  My won breed are pretty good, but most will nto be bullied, but on the other hand their idea of a scrap tends to be noisy and bloodless bluff.

When dog fighting was banned in the UK the Staff fanciers drafted the standard and bred away from these characteristics, and succeeded pretty well until idiots wanted to turn the clock back and breed fighting/macho dogs again, and are trying to get them to be Pitbull types either by crossing with other bigger breeds and selecting for the negative traits.

After all the American Stafford and Pittbull come from the old Staffy stock before the adoption of a standard for a more suitable temperament.

KC standard:

Characteristics
Traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity. Highly intelligent and affectionate especially with children.

Temperament
Bold, fearless and totally reliable.

Size
Desirable height at withers 36-41 cms (14 to 16 ins), these heights being related to the weights. Weight: dogs: 13-17 kgs (28-38 lbs); bitches 11-15.4 kgs.

It is very unfair on those who own STANDARD Staffords to have their breed reputation ruined by the dogs that clearly are not standard Stafford's or often not even purebed.

The KC Standard also reduced the SBT height whilst maintaining the weight making them less efficient than their ancestors. The KC ones no longer have the physical structure they once had. Bull Terriers are the same. Both too short in leg and too wide in body.

In 40 years of owning dogs I can't think of a single case of one choking. Sure they've picked up some undesirable things that I've had to fish out their mouths, but if the dog is muzzled this isn't going to happen is it 

Here's a link to an incident about a choking muzzled APBT, as reported in Our Dogs http://www.angelfire.com/biz6/dogholocaust/ourdogs21.html

As well as my original post on the first page I have read this thread with interest. I only have one thing to say and that is...As somebody who has met and worked with (or should I say helped patch up) current fighting APBT many years ago as a VN my boy was a line bred Farmer's boy APBT who's sire, grandsire, 3 older full brothers and later, 2 littermates were champions. My boy and I worked and trained our butts off in flyball, advanced obedience and agilty and even the top competing people who met him were amazed at how happy, sociable, and trainable he was. APBT are much more trainable than 99% of people think, which makes them easy to train for either good...or bad behaviour. Anyway, that's my experience, for the little it's worth. He did well my best friend.....17 yrs old and never so much as a snarl at any of the other dogs, cats, or countless small furries that came home with us. THERE IS NOT A PERSON IN THE WORLD OR AN ARTICLE THAT CAN BE WRITTEN THAT WILL CHANGE MY MIND THAT THESE DOGS CAN BE THE BEST COMPANION IN THE WORLD (PROVIDING YOU DEDICATE YOUR LIFE TO CONSTANT TRAINING AND OCCUPYING THEM AND GIVE THEM A PURPOSE.

> Here's a link to an incident about a choking muzzled APBT

Yep, thats a link to a story about a dog that was allegedly choking, or a link to a story about someone who had an unmuzzled pitbull and tried to tell the police that they'd just removed it's muzzle there and then because it was choking :-)   Dogs do choke, I'm not arguing that, but it's rare and I would say extremely rare if the dog is muzzled as it shouldn't be able to pick anything up to choke on. It's definitely not an excuse not to muzzle.

It's not an excuse not to muzzle, I think my other reasons were more valid. I have no problem with muzzling dogs out of necessity if they are genuine aggressive biters, but I do with muzzling  entire breeds just because of their appearance and history.

In my opinion, the new dog legislation risks making criminals of us all and I cannot understand  why the KC is supporting it . That we could be prosecuted if our dog/ s behave aggressively towards people on our property, regardless of whether the person/s are there legitimately is outrageous. Most dogs will bark at strangers, a few may nip ( I have BCs ) .This perfectly normal behaviour by the dog ,towards a perceived intruder on the dog's territory, will apparently result in the dog being destroyed and the owner receiving a criminal record. This is clearly nuts ! And the interpretation of the law will be entirely subjective. What may be acceptable behaviour to some  ( e.g. retriever jumping up to say hello ) could also be dangerous aggression to others !!!

I'm sorry to offend all those passionate about their bull terrier breeds and mastiffs but clearly these dogs are ending up in the wrong hands . These breeds were bred to fight and to guard fearlessly. I would not be happy to have any large guarding breed around children . The legisation currently being considered will result in traditional family friendly breeds being tarred with the same brush as those whose savage attacks on children ( and adults) are all too often in the media.

Who's up for a campaign opposing the new legislation ?

There's provision in the propsed new law to provide defense gainst provocation, trespass and instances where the individual is commiting an offense that could lead to imprisonment etc. Attacks on private property are already covered by the Dogs Act 1871, although its civil not criminal legislation.

I'm not offended by your comment because I agree completely with it - they are ending up in the woring hands. The most likely reason being the fact that certain breeds are banned under the DDA and the way the media hype them as dangerous. This makes them far more attractive to cretins. It also creates the belief that as there are dangerous breeds, there are safe breeds. SBT were long considered as family friendly and are still one of 2 breeds recommended for children by the KC.

who up for campaigning aganist the new legisation?

I am most definatly against the extending to private property, I would be up for campaigning against that. It is very unfair.

>I'm sorry to offend all those passionate about their bull terrier breeds and mastiffs but clearly these dogs are ending up in the wrong hands . These breeds were bred to fight and to guard fearlessly.

The English Mastiff is a guarding breed but is not "fierce", it should guard by putting itself between owner & threat, at most it should hold, not launch a savage attack. The loyalty of this breed combined with thier exceptional patience makes them great around children. Thier patience, tollerance and lack of prey/fight drive makes them great around other animals.

>Who's up for a campaign opposing the new legislation ?

The new legislation would make no differene to me, my dog does not nip or jump up, he is always under control when meeting other dogs, he does not bark at strangers etc.  Because he is so big and because the way the DDA is already (a dog only has to frighten someone to be a problem - easily done by even the best behaved giant breed) my dog has had to be much better behaved in public than he would if he was smaller. I would welcome changes to the law that meant I could get something done about the I'll mannered dogs that get away with having a go at my patient, calm, tolerant, friendly dog.

The new legislation is already in place in Scotland and I did write ( along with many others ) to the relevant MSP pointing out the unfairness of the private property section, my dogs are very people friendly, I'm not worried about that, I seriously doubt they'd do anything even if I was under threat, but if my neighbours dog got into my garden ( chasing my hens again ! ) and got into trouble with my dogs, I could be liable, I just don't think that' s fair, that my neighbours dog can enter my property ( despite 6ft high stone walls, she gets through a hole that the stream runs through ) due to their inability to contain her, and I'm the one who potentially has to pay.

I've been racking my brains trying to remember what Coppinger said about Staffie and APBT litters that he bred and observed, my aging brain cells finally found the information and it was that he had noticed, that even as very young puppies, they tended not to give any submissive behaviours to each other, he hypothesized that because they didn't experience these behaviours as puppies that they went on to not be able to recognise them as adults.

> THERE IS NOT A PERSON IN THE WORLD OR AN ARTICLE THAT CAN BE WRITTEN THAT WILL CHANGE MY MIND THAT THESE DOGS CAN BE THE BEST COMPANION IN THE WORLD (PROVIDING YOU DEDICATE YOUR LIFE TO CONSTANT TRAINING AND OCCUPYING THEM AND GIVE THEM A PURPOSE.

Well said, and good on you for being dedicated.

> but if my neighbours dog got into my garden ( chasing my hens again ! ) and got into trouble with my dogs, I could be liable,

I agree that is totaly unfair, BUT people on here want something done about the power breeds that terrify others. Having a powerfull breed, I allready have to go above & beyond responsible to ensure my dog doesn't even SNIFF a passer-by for fear of them accusing him of frightening/biting them - that is not fair, but it's life. We can't have it all ways.

If new legislation helps stamp out these idiots that terrorise others with thier dogs then surely it has to be good.

I can't see how the new legislation would work against you in your scenario - the neighbours dog would be trying to attack another animal (your hens - not allowed!), your dog would have the defense of "the attack was on a tresspaser" The legislastion should come down on the owner of the trespassing & attacking dog, not on you.

Thats my hope ML , the dog hasn't caught any hens, but the few times she's got in she's raised merry hell with them, which then puts them off lay because of the stress. I even told the owners that Daisy would probably go for her ( although she may also run in the house out of fear, it would depend if she felt trapped ) owners weren't bothered one little jot, they said it would serve her right !...unbeilvable.

just saw another ad and i see that blue staffs are £1000 again and some are sold! whats wrong with the world? why would anyone pay this extra price for a so called 'RARE' colour when its not rare

I really think a lot of these incidents are Staffy crosses with pitbulls and similar dogs - or even pure bred pitbulls, Irish Staffs etc etc.   I have shown Staffies in the past and certainly amongst the show dogs there is less dog aggression in the ring than there was say 25 years ago - they are not getting more dog aggressive.    The average man in the street doesn't know an American bulldog from a Cane Corso from  Pit Bull - this article talks about a Staffy cross - maybe it was but that's also often code for a pitbull type sometimes with some staff blood sometimes not.

Obviously it's distressing if your dog is attacked or worse killed by a bull breed dog but it's distressing for cat owners who may have had sight hounds kill their pets - yes it does happen, maybe not to responsible hound owners but then responsible Staffy owners don't tend to let their dogs get into dog fights - so if we are going to ban bull breeds for that should be ban Borzois, Whippets, lurchers etc.

As for guarding breeds - I no longer have a Staffy but I do own a guarding breed (the same as yours Trevor I think) and as far as people are concerned I think a Staffy requires less socialisation to be reliable.    Belgians are probably more likely to deliver a bite and retreat but some breeds such as Bullmastiffs and Rottweilers seem to be have been implicated in more serious sustained attacks on people than Staffs.   I do not lump pitbulls in with Staffs - they are a different breed.   

Finally if you look at stats from the USA we'd have to be banning a few other breeds - Malamutes and similar, Chows etc.

> if we are going to ban bull breeds for that should be ban Borzois, Whippets, lurchers etc.

The issue for me is danger to humans from the 'rogue' pitbulls. I have never heard of a single human killed by a sighthound. The difference in breed type makes them (sighthounds) much safer for humans. Sighthounds may be keen hunters but they are wimps where raised voices or pain are concerned. You should hear them scream if you even think about standing on one of their hairs. If you were attacked by one it would be very easy indeed to chase the dog away, unlike a pitbull which is bred to carry on attacking no matter what.

But talking about pitbulls is different to talking about all bull breeds.   Staffies are not pitbulls.    I take your point about sighthounds not really being a threat to people but the same doesn't apply when talking about Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Chows, Huskies, Malamutes, Dobermans etc.   The problem is they don't differentiate staffs from pitbulls but my (educated) guess is that if they did Staffs either wouldn't figure on the list of dogs that have killed or would be below all of those breeds at least.  

I don't think anyone is saying Staffs aren't a powerful breed and any powerful breed and maybe more of a threat than many breeds because of that - but to talk as if they are uniquely dangerous to people isn't backed up by facts.  If the argument is that they are implicated in attacks on pet dogs then you'd have to say equally that hounds are implicated on attacks on pet cats. 

I'm not sure who you're replying to? I've never said staffs, only pitbulls.

If you look at your post you'll see you quoted a line talking about bull breeds - of which Staffs are one - so I'm replying to you.