But they would merely mix the breeds as they do now..............always always sadly adding my beloved SBT or similar bullbreeds to the mix.

I am ot leaving the debate I am like other Sbt owners desperate for an answer, but I am taking mine for her walk now before bedtime. Back soon or tomorrow.

What about the many innocent dogs that are deemed as "type" and seized just on looks?
It seems papers and registration are not even proof enough against that and there is no definitive DNA test, just a handful of 'trained experts'. In the meantime dogs are detained at owner's expense and the legal process required to 'prove' their innocence is expensive, intricate and legally awkward, which often results in the dogs being pts.

So on that basis I am not in favour of the current laws being more rigidly enforced, but at the same time I don't think a repeal will necessarily make it easier for bullbreed and bull-cross owners.

I used to work at a stable near Windsor Great Park and the horses and ponies had to display their permit on the headcollar, showing clearly that they had permission to be there. Is there no way that we can bring back licensing with people only being granted this license once they have completed a basic training class?? I'm sure responsible dog owners would only be too happy to pay a reasonable sum if the license included some sort of visual permit (bright dog collar or disc, maybe with a barcode that can give a police officer all their registration details when scanned - which can be done via mobile phone these days!).
I'm also pretty certain that trainers would be only too happy to co-operate with this scheme and confirm whether people have indeed attended a full course. Most mobile phones have cameras and display the date the photo was taken if proof is needed?
Surely it would be easier for the police to spot offenders this way? Even if they suspect a dodgy-looking dog the barcode on the collar/tag can be scanned to check the details? Obviously if the dog is too dangerous to scan then they have a good case for taking the dog off the street anyway?
I don't know....just a thought? I'd be interested in what people think as I may be over-looking something?

The people who have pit bulls and their crosses are already breaking the law so I can't see them complying with licensing requirements. Instead of bringing in new laws we should just enforce the one we have.

> If all pitbull types were neutered, insured and muzzled (as they should be according to the existing law) there would be far fewer incidents of this type and eventually we wouldn't have any pitbull types in this country.

Actually that is what was supposed to happen, but obviously that kind of  law didn't and won't work, unless all the Pit Bulls and types are all over 20 years old,  as the law was enacted in 1991!!!.

>> If all pitbull types were neutered, insured and muzzled (as they should be according to the existing law) there would be far fewer incidents of this type and eventually we wouldn't have any pitbull types in this country.
> Actually that is what was supposed to happen, but obviously that kind of  law didn't and won't work, unless all the Pit Bulls and types are all over 20 years old,  as the law was enacted in 1991!!!.

Thats my point, the law exists but it was never enforced. Enforce it now.

> Thats my point, the law exists but it was never enforced. Enforce it now.

It is being enforced but misguidedly. Owners of crossbred dogs which have never been near a Pit Bull are wrongly being charged. In this case it's guilty until proven innocent, but there's no way the owners can prove the innocence. Which means that if it was more rigicly enforced, more innocent dogs will be seized, and as always, the real lawbreakers will evade justice.

So what would you advise? Outlaw cross breeds? Because apparently a Lab x Boxer looks exactly like a Type dog, and so does a Staffy x American Bulldog. The owners of these crosses and others are having their dogs taken away while the real culprits get off scot free. If the DDA worked, never mind enforced [I'm saying worked] then there would be no genuine APBTs in the country, it would have been nipped in the bud yonks ago, and unfortunate crosses would have no fear and would never have been pts in the name of a badly designed law.

I so feel for them, I so can understand what they must have went through.  That poor little dog what it must have went through is so heart breaking :(

This is what happened to me last year.

We got new neighbours, the dog was allowed to roam around as it pleased, I often would see it walking along the road and hills.
One morning I opened my back door the neighbour's dog walked into my kitchen  and started snarling growling and showing teeth I dropped my drink in fright my boy came a running barking loud. My dog was so brave trying to protect me. I shouted no crate now, he was very torn from protecting me but was very obedient when I repeated the words again and did what I requested (Mind you he kept barking loud).

Whatever direction I went in the dog was trying to get at me. Everything I could grab I hit or threw it. I threw chairs, hit it with a chair, and tried pushing it out the door with it. I picked up a metal kitchen towel holder and started hitting the dog face while pushing the chair at its body.  I dropped the chair in front of me managed to pick up a towel that was on radiator. While hitting the dog I threw the towel over its head, picked up the chair again, it was going nuts trying to get towel off, somehow I managed to get it out the door with the chair a kitchen towel holder hitting and pushing it and locked door. I was a nervous wreck, sat behind the door but the staffy type was attacking the door. It took it a long time to leave.

I did not know who to contact so I telephoned local council and was put through to dog warden. Dog warden visited went to the neighbour and returned to me. They were told not to let it roam around.  The dog warden said to me the dog is under a year old that he thought it was disorientated and thought I was an intruder in its house.  I said that's not an excuse if my relatives child had stayed overnight she would have been out in the garden that morning and the dog may have attacked her. I said the dog needs watching 24/7 it needs training classes someone that knows the breed.  He said that nothing more he could do but give them a warning if it happened again to contact him.

I know the person who rented the property out so contacted them. They visited me with a bunch of flowers that day and apologised, I said it is not your falt. Then approx a month later those neighbours with the dog had moved.

I still think it should be deed not breed but I do think everyone needs to teach the animal they take on as you do when you have a child. Sadly we live in a society where the minority do not care and these situations happen. No excuses should be made humans need to take responsibility and be made accountable.  Those that have the power should use the full extent of the law to make sure these owners are held accountable.

VERY refreshing to see a lot of very realistic, down to earth, posts on this topic with perceptions of the real world situation & dogs.

I am fed up with the mantra "Deed not breed".

The charities made some good income from using it as a campaign they needed money for, the same charities that made money from campaigns to get APDT banned on the first place. It's like promoting/encouraging people to break the law "because 'some' dont like the law".

.

I usually steer well clear of this kind of topic as along with most I simply have no answers to the problem  - but -I must confess to being baffled  - - - this Borzoi puppy was in it's crate in its own home - the crate was forcibly opened and it was then ripped to shreds  - just WHAT kind of temperament does this display ? - mine is a guarding breed - they bark at stuff they find suspicious - if pushed or threatened they would go forward and perhaps bite -this is I think typical of most guarding breeds especially the males however there is NO way that they would enter a strange house and tear apart another dog   - - what kind of temperament is this ? -this is truly frightening stuff and  I tell you there is no room in society for dogs with the capability of doing this.

I don't know ...but I cannot and will not defend dogs capable of doing this.

Yvonne

Such a sad story

Yvonne,

I totally agree with you. The same goes for the person who described the staffy type dog that entered her house and started going for her- and how this was rationalised as the behaviour of a disorientated youngster. Again, nothing like the staffy temperament, as I understand it. Either the dog was being trained for fighting or it had a horrendous temperament.

I think the problem begins with the backyard breeder and what they are mixing up, for whatever reason. I said on another post that I bumped into two young men with an unusually large AMBD (johnson type), only 9 months old but huge. They had no control, no plans to train him, no plans to castrate him and had an in season bitch at home. The mind boggles.

I would like to see harsh penalties for those who have a dog offlead, outside of a park or enclosed garden, in urban environments. I know this will be unpopular with some, but status dogs offlead in the street are a complete menace- and there are plenty of instances.

Perhaps those who choose to own a breed with a fighting history should have to muzzle their dogs in public. Yes, this will step on a lot of toes but there needs to be some way of keeping the thugs in check, it is a simple and visible solution. With the current cuts ongoing, I cannot see the enforcement of DDA or similar legislation working, there's a lack of will and resources.

I don't own my first loved breed any longer because it has become a 'status breed' and for the main reason which is, I found dog ownership can actually be enjoyable!  I have wasted so many years owning an agressive breed.  My dogs were never out of control but when walking in public, they would've fought with any dog which they encountered if they had been off-lead.  The amount of years I spent finding more out-of-the-way walks just so I could relax slightly as if I walked in town, I would almost certainly come across an off-lead dog approaching my on-lead ones.  Now, I used to be mad about this as I would have to fend off this dog so my dogs wouldn't hurt it.  Don't worry folks, I have now seen sense and realise that it was MY dogs that were the problem.  I should never have been able to own that breed in an urban situation.  Why would I want to own a dog that wasn't sociable with it's own species?  When humans threaten their own species, they go to prison, they have no place in society, and I'm afraid I believe these breeds should be the same.
My thoughts are the breeds bred for fighting/aggression should be banned and other owners should have to sit some sort of training to own any other breeds.
I have been almost attacked by a young staffie once and it was truely terrifying.  I can honestly say that is one breed I wouldn't like to be on the wrong side of.  They don't have any place in this modern society.  There is no purpose for owning this type of dog.  It is neither a worker or a family pet.

It is being enforced but misguidedly

No it isn't. Only a few police etc bother to enforce it, and usually only when there is a problem, the rest ignore it. If they didn't ignore it it wouldn't even be possible for the owners of these dogs to walk down the street if a policeman was within sight, but they do -every day.

>what kind of temperament is this ? -this is truly frightening stuff and  I tell you there is no room in society for dogs with the capability of doing this

I'm another who could not agree more with this. Terrifying.

I also don't have time for the argument that the aggression is dog-focused, rather than people-focused, as it is so easy to suffer damage when trying to break up a fight.

M.

Most people when situations such as this and others very similar involving an attact on a child, person or another dog or puppy are very quick to blame the owner because they have no control or the dog is not trained socially to be well behaved in public or home. Very often this is correct but I feel that the 'attack incident' in any of these situations whether it be a child or another dog involved needs to be taken one step further.  That is when any incident is reported to the police the breeder of the dog needs to be questioned and their breeding practices curtailed, if not and they have bred a dog that is quite capable of attacking can and are likely to go onto to breed more.

After being questioned the breeder should have to produce a vets certificate stating that both the dam and sire have now been neutered/spayed by law making them incapable of producing more litters of puppies with the same consequencies occuring. If the dam or sire are found to be of the same nature then sadly I think they should be pts.  We do not need badly bred dogs in our society that put fear into other dogs and dog walkers.

Going one step further (sometime last year Our Dogs did print an article I wrote called the Simple Solution) and that is that any person wishing to breed from their dog should by law have to acquire a licence to breed from their local Council (not as now over four litters in a 12 month period then licence) but a a two tier licence one called a casual licence to enable a person to breed from their dog/s just once and then the dam must be neutered.  The vets certificate must be logged with the Council alongside all ID of the dam, the puppies ID before sold and to whom. This would enable the Council and Police to identify all back yard breeders.  A hefty fixed penalty fine if a dog is found or puppies found without licence and ID.

A commercial licence again issued by the Council for anyone who wishes to breed more than once from a dog or has more than one dog that they wish to breed from (but limit the number of litter to four) - all dogs to be identifiable making the breeder responsible for identifcation of all dogs they own and puppies they sell who must identifiable before sale. This will result in tracabilty, with tracability comes responsibilty.

I know those who breed dogs and refer to themselves as hobby breeders will not agree with this as they were not in agreement with the proposed introduction of the Welsh Legislation on dog breeding, because it is likely to involve some to be licensed by their Councils. But I think the bigger picture needs to be looked at we have a lot or very irresponsible breeders breeding very poorly bred and reared unsocialized puppies that grow sometimes into very aggressive dogs, placing these puppies into the wrong hands, for the wrong reasons is  time bomb. We need as a country to ensure that we do have legislation to assist in controlling over breeding and the consequencies of over breeding - this starts at the door of the breeder.
It is no good making reference to the owner of the dog and licensing dog owners if the source of the problem the breeder who is producing these dogs is not taken task too.     

I wish everybody could have been at the wonderful seminar I went to re. "new kids on the block" recently. Behaviourist from Wood Green talking about the newer dogs coming in to town - Cane Corso, other similar molosser types.

What i came away with was a very realistic understanding of how very important it is, yet again, to understand how dogs come into society and what they are bred for, and how far away that breeding is generations wise.

Some of these breeds are animals used for (for example) butcher's dogs. This means they catch a cow and drag it to the butcher, who then kills it. The butcher then asks them to go and get another cow... and so on. If we just take a few moments to think about the full impact of this dog in society -

Thinks for itself
Massively strong
Stubborn in the sense that it will not let go

etc.... it can be seen that they are only going to be truly safe in specialist hands, owners that truly understand the breed and will take time and effort to train and almost more important, to socialise etc.

How many owners are going to do that?
The reality is that these breeds are going to be far more problematic than most others breeds if upset, pushed into aggression, neglected, undertrained or not trained, etc.

The conclusion from the talk was that education is the thing, and I tend to agree. It's just that education will not necessarily reach everyone ... :(

It was unpleasant sitting through a graphic description of an assessed dog, who bit and held one of the kennel assistants and who would not let go. He was pts immediately because he was not safe. They altered their assessment procedures due to this and another incident where a dog had hurt a child who had 200 stitches, again this dog had also been assessed.

We have to all be real here. We cannot "bash" bull breeds because there are many wonderful pet mastiffs, (friend of mine had 2 until recently and I had a great fondness for them). It's the bad element knowing their capabilities and using them. Also it's the newer dogs coming in who are capable of huge harm if not properly looked after.

I dont know what the answer is. It's just a horrible mess :(

Lindsay
x

> Problem is that would only work with the responsible owners who would probably be socialising and training anyway. It won't work with the idiot yobs who just want a 'status' dog, and there's no way with the sheer numbers of Staffies and their various crosses that it could be regulated

You are right. My sister has two staffordshire bull terriers and they have never caused any problems at all. Of all the dogs I regularly meet while out walking I have only had any real problems with two. One was a Staffy cross rescue dog from the local RSPCA who was out of control and the new owner believed it was being playful and friendly hence it was off lead, and a border collie again off lead which pinned my puppy to the floor and had to dragged off.

At training club the only dogs I would say I have had real problems with have been a puppy farm spaniel, a designer cross of a collie and a dalmatian, and a long coat GSD, who has since leaving the club after a disagreement between the owner and the trainers has been known to attack other dogs in the local park. The local dog wardens and police have been trying to track down the owner of this dog.

I suspect as a dog club trainer I see more types with problems than most people see. I can honestly say I have not personally found a big difference in the average pet dog what ever type, but the problem does seem to be from certain types of owner/breeding. By breeding I do not mean inbreeding or line breeding, I mean irresponsible breeding!

I don't think anyone who supports Deed not Breed ( myself included ) is trying to defend aggressive dogs, far from it, it angers and depresses me when I hear of yet another attack by a Bull type, but the fact is that the DDA has seen the destruction of some perfectly innocent dogs who haven't harmed anything, is everyone who's sharpening their pitchforks really comfortable with that ?. Even the police and the government have come out and publicly stated that the DDA doesn't work, it was a badly drafted piece of legislation in the first place, steps have been made to improve things, new laws brought out in Scotland now target the owner, dogs who have shown aggression can now have an "ASBO" (hopefully ) slapped on them before they actually get round to biting.

As I said in a previous post, you can ban a breed til your blue in the face, kill all the Pit's, Staffies, Rotties, Akita's, take your pick as to which breed the Daily (hate) Mail has in it's sights that week, but those who want to own an aggressive dog will find another breed to abuse, do you really think they will stop owning dogs who are a liability, no they won't, they'll trot off and get themselves a Kangal, a Tibetian Mastiff, a Caucasian Ovcharka, the list is endless.
Yes there's a big problem, something does have to be done, but I don't think dogs should be killed because of the way they look. As there's no such recognized breed as a Pitbull in this country, they are referred to as a type, if a dog conforms to a certain set of measurements which mark it as being "of type" then it will be put down, it needn't have any PB blood in it at all, this includes pedigree SBT's, Boxer Lab crosses, even some Lab's could conform to type, under the current law a dog doesn't have to have done any harm or displayed any aggression, it just as to look a certain way, is that fair ? I don't think it is.

I know that Bully Kuttas are being bred and have been sighted in the UK, I have also seen what looked very like a Kangal. Both are breeds totally unsuited for an urban/ average domestic environment. Anyone who keeps them and breeds them cannot expect to enjoy all the normal freedoms of pet ownership. I also wonder what on earth would possess someone to own one of these breeds in the city.

Muzzling/obligatory onlead may not be the best option but surely it is a practical start? By the time we have arrived at the 'perfect' solution, that protects everyone's freedoms/rights, we will also have more dead dogs and more injured people. As an aside I would also add that dogs offlead in public places may severely restrict the rights and freedoms of those who are disabled and rely on assistance dogs.

I know that Bully Kuttas are being bred and have been sighted in the UK, I have also seen what looked very like a Kangal. Both are breeds totally unsuited for an urban/ average domestic environment. Anyone who keeps them and breeds them cannot expect to enjoy all the normal freedoms of pet ownership. I also wonder what on earth would possess someone to own one of these breeds in the city.

I agree unfortunately, these are not suited to the average life they would end up in.

Lindsay
x

i'm starting to think there is a lot to be said for any dog over 15lb in weight to be muzzled in public.  fed up of being frightened on dog walks . :(

To be honest the Clifton report is completely unreliable and unaccurate as it is based on media reports and doesn't really hold any weight.

http://graceblogg.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/dog-attack-statistics-merrit-clifton/

What about the little ankle biting JRs though?? There's just no easy answer, well bred and socialised JR / Staffies / Rotties etc are usually fine, and the idiot owners of the other ones won't follow any legislation. :-(

i think that anyone looking to own a dog capable of doing damage

surely all breeds can cause damage? i have seen (admittedly on tv) vicious snapping chis and even a min pin which was pts in the end for biting people.

We have to all be real here. We cannot "bash" bull breeds because there are many wonderful pet mastiffs, (friend of mine had 2 until recently and I had a great fondness for them). It's the bad element knowing their capabilities and using them. Also it's the newer dogs coming in who are capable of huge harm if not properly looked after.

I dont know what the answer is. It's just a horrible mess

I totally agree :(

Some young friends who recently had a baby have just moved from their inner city flat to a more rural area. They said that there were too many youths with "staffy type" dogs who they deliberately train to lunge and bark and snarl at passersby. As the young mum had to navigate down flights of stairs with a pushchair and her baby to go out....she had become terrified of these particular dogs and their young owners....and frightened of the whole area.

Her sister on the other hand.... has a Staffy...a GSD...a Border Collie and a Yorkie who all get along together fine....and she feels quite safe taking her baby round there to visit. The young Mum places the blame squarely on the youths with the "horrible attitude" who she feels shouldn't be allowed to keep these (or any) dogs.

The difference in attitude between herself and her sister....and the youths who are deliberately provoking aggression in their dogs....are miles apart and to me....can only be the result of their upbringing.  Both her and her sister have obviously been raised with love...compassion...and respect towards other people and animals....but it makes me wonder about the upbringing of the youths (and their dogs) who inevitably caused her to move away from the area she had grown up in....who (without wishing to stereotype) appear to have very little compassion towards other people and animals...??

> The same goes for the person who described the staffy type dog that entered her house and started going for her

freelancerukuk It was the dog warden that said it was a "staffy type" I trusted his knowledge on dog types as I had no clue as at that time as I was petrified.

What about the little ankle biting JRs though?? There's just no easy answer, well bred and socialised JR / Staffies / Rotties etc are usually fine, and the idiot owners of the other ones won't follow any legislation.


Yes, but the fact is there are far too many badly bred and unsocialised breeds with a fighting history out there. When walking my dog if I see a bull breed or an Akita or a Sharpei, in the distance, I am afraid I avoid- experience has taught me that this is the safest option for me and my dog. It is not ideal, but then life isn't.

On the other hand, if I see an intact JR or similar I carry on- experience has taught me that the worst that can happen is a spat (I accept there can be some appallingly badly behaved JRT's, but neither I or my dog is likely to end up dead or badly injured).

This is why I lean towards the muzzling argument. I know it will be unfair to many owners, but it is possibly the easiest and simplest thing to implement short-term, and park/community wardens/police can issue on the spot fines for non compliance (or am I living in cloud cuckoo land?)

For those of us who live in the cities walking the dog is becoming more stressful by the day, you never know when you are going to bump into an offlead staff/pit type or just how it will react to your dog, or your dog to it. Walking in the park can be nightmarish- a fair few dogs have been attacked and some killed by bully crosses and types running the full length of the park to get at a dog.

Strangely enough, I'm not so bothered by Rotties or Dobermanns. The thug element generally don't have the handling skills to deal with these dogs. I suspect this is why Akitas and AMBDs are not taking off in huge quantities yet- they don't suck up abuse quite as well as a staffy will. There is no doubt that in the right hands Staffs are a great breed, but all good staff people know that they require lots of socialisation to ensure they are safe around other dogs and small furries. Old genes have a habit of turning up and, I believe, you always have to bear the fighting history in mind. What is so sad is that they are, for a terrier, rather easy to train and willing to please, and therein lies the rub and why so many thugs have them.

I have spent some time reading this whole thread, and as an owner of 3 large breed dogs I'd just like to add my take on all this.

I live in a quiet village on the Somerset coast, which is next to a popular seaside destination for people travelling from the Midlands and South Wales. It is half term right now, so we traditionally have to be on our guard walking in open spaces like the beach, or the fields near my home, as there are many holidaymakers in town, some of whom have brought along their dogs.

I went out with my 3 yesterday, and within the space of five minutes I had encountered three groups of people, all with Staffies. The first and second were families who had their dogs on lead, so no problems there (no off-lead encounters). Then I met three adults and four staffies, two of which were puppies, all on lead and under control. My puppy (just 6 months) is still prone to go up and say hello to dogs and people, so sensibly I had caught her and put her back on her lead before meeting them. A male and female adult Staffy, a 10 month male puppy and a 12 week old pup, all with their studded collars/harnesses! Both adult dogs were straining on their leads and snarling. I didn't worry about letting her say hello to the smallest one but it seemed frightened of my large puppy so we went on our way, but I shudder to think what might have happened had my baby girl trotted up to say hello, had not read the signs from the adult dogs and then got "within range". The people were very pleasant and chatted with me for a while, but I wouldn't have liked to meet them off lead in the field.

Then when I nipped into our local Tesco Express, the lady serving me leaned over the counter and warned me about a Pitbull that had attacked and killed a dog on the beach. I dismissed it thinking it was probably a Staffy cross, but realistically, it could be, bearing in mind the amount of dogs which holiday here with their owners from inner city areas.

Then in our local park a while ago, an elderly lady was badly bitten and her poor spaniel killed by a large white Staffordshire which had attacked. She had thrown herself onto her dog to try and protect it. I was horrified when I heard this - I regularly walked in this park!

Then my daughter witnessed (in the same park) a lady who was walking her son's two sbt's attack each other. The lady's hand and arm were badly torn up and several men were trying to prise the dogs apart. Absolutley horrifying and awful thing to witness.

I don't know what the answer is personally, but I do think something should be done for all of the irresponsible breeding going on, especially of the fighting breeds. This is not a ticking time bomb, the bomb has already gone off!!!

Our dogs were charged aggressively by a Weimeraner this morning, the owner had absolutley no control, so I stood the dog off. My dogs were on lead! I wouldn't fancy standing off a fighting breed if it was going for my dogs.

Have to go and walk my dogs now, wonder who we'll meet?

Very interesting debate...

i hate irresponsible dog owners that let theirs run up to yours whilst yours are on lead! if we were attacked there wouldnt be anything i could do as mine are too big to pick up! to be fair on the staffs that growled on lead when your pup came up to them, mine will often bark or give a warning growl on lead if someone comes too close, completely different behaviour to when they are off lead and will then meet the dog with no probs

There's a large piece in my local paper today about a Guide Dog for the Blind pup who was attacked by a SBT in a park.

My aunty had a SBT and she was lovely with us kids but if someone played a tug-of-war type game she would lock-on and not let go. She had a very strong jaw .
It is sad that a lovely breed is being ruined by a minority.

freelancerukuk It was the dog warden that said it was a "staffy type" I trusted his knowledge on dog types as I had no clue as at that time as I was petrified.

Yes, sorry, I had no intention of criticizing you. I was rather surprised at a seemingly 'knowledgable' person rationalising such extreme dog behaviour in the way he did- whatever the suspected type. My point was that quite aside from the extreme aggression towards the crated pup, which might be explicable if the dog was being trained to fight, his extreme aggression towards you, could not, in my view, just be explained away as mere disorientation.

Is it not the breeds that are getting worse but the way iresponsible people are breeding them and bring them up.
Society generally seems to more violent than we remember. I know there are aruments for and against that staement  and unfortunately badly handled dogs is just one aspect  of change
Is not the breed there are lots of lovly bull breed specimens about nut as someone said on a previous thread if these people who have the "bad " dogs choose to have chihuahua for example we would all be laughing.
The breed /breeds chosen are big dogs with the potenial to do damage if the have a problem
A chihuahua by comparison wouldnt have the same potential. imo its dog ownership/breeding that needs sorting out.

I think this is one of the saddest threads I have read in a long time. It feels from reading this like a desperate situation. There's good and bad examples of all breeds so no matter what you do, someone will feel 'punished'.
I'm sure most people would agree that there are some dogs who have more 'potential' to do damage than others (talking about size, strength and tenacity here rather than poor temperament). But I can't see a way to deal with the bad without punishing the good and missing out on a whole chunk of bad at the same time.
Just a small aside (with apologies to anyone with these breeds) but I live near London - an apparent problem area for status dogs - and yet never while out walking my dogs have we experienced any issues with a stafford or stafford crosses. My dogs have been treated most nastily (in fact only) by a boxer, a lab, a sibe, a shepherd and a GSP. My boy was bitten at a puppy class by a Rough Collie.
Not what you'd expect reading this thread...

Another thing (sorry), when we have these issues I am always glad that I have 'big' dogs (Weims) as they're a little bit more hardy than a small yorkie or something similar, just because they're bigger. I can't imagine the fear that a small dog owner must go through when they're confronted by a large out of control dog. Does that fear really happen or is it in my head only? I try especially hard to stop my two approaching small dogs, just to put the owners at ease... but then I think maybe the owners think I'm recalling my dogs because I can't trust them, which isn't the case.
Bad mixed up old world...

surely all breeds can cause damage? i have seen (admittedly on tv) vicious snapping chis and even a min pin which was pts in the end for biting people.

Agree that all breeds can cause damage. Most could go up to Dr Ian Dunbar's Bite Level 5 or 6 (maim/kill). Sadly the problem faced is that looking at the breed propensity to work on its own initiative/hold after biting and just not let go/not likely to be particularly dog friendly (on the whole, unless very well socialised- which they can be) this is different to many other types of dog breed. It took a heck of a lot to get this particular dog off of the Wood Green rescue kennel assistant, from what I heard, meanwhile it was grinding down through her arm to the bone. She amazingly kept calm but she could have been killed. Incredibly she still works there!

This is what sank in after the talk I went to. It's about how the breed will behave due to its genetics and what it was bred for. I've only recently got to grips with what it really means with some breeds. Never really understood before, although I thought I did.

If we could guarantee the right owners, it would all be fine. That's the thing :(

What is so sad is that they are, for a terrier, rather easy to train and willing to please, and therein lies the rub and why so many thugs have them.

Exactly, agree. I've heard of these same people going to dog parks, letting their dogs off (usual types) and betting on which dog their dogs will attack!! Also I understand that they encourage these poor dogs to be aggressive to humans and dogs, which is not in their true nature. They are usually very human friendly and can be dog friendly with the right upbringing, as we all know.

Lindsay
x

Re the staffs growling at my dogs/puppy, I had got the pup back on the lead as I thought she might read the situation wrong and get into a scrape. My two adults are very well socialised and kept a wide berth. As the adult Staffs were growling/straining at their leads, the owner said that the pups were ok, but "these two are terrible!" Enough said!!

I have to say though that my dogs don't have any problems with any other breeds they might come across. They are well socialised and have never caused or been involved in a fracas. I have only had issues with other dogs unfortunately, and agree that it doesn't matter what breed, if they're of poor temperament it can end badly.

The problem with Staffy's in particular, is that the vast majority of the ones being produced are not KC Registered, are the result of two dogs just being put together without any regard for health and temperament just to make puppies. They are then sold cheaply to people who have no idea how to raise a dog properly and the result is rescue centres bursting at the seams with the poor cast-offs, dogs who have never had a chance.

It's not about a well bred, well raised dog from parents with good temperament. I'm not knocking people who love their breed and produce puppies responsibly, selling their pups to other like-minded owners. For goodness sake, something needs to be done about the indescriminate breeding which is flooding the whole country with potentially dangerous dogs, dogs who should never have been born imo!

If legislation were introduced which might help in this area then I'd be all for it!

The question about legislation is who do you legalise the owners/breeders/dogs?
I agree something needs to be done but what? You need a licence to own a gun in this country yet we know there are illegal guns. Prositution is illegal but that takes place. Not try to be negative but the question is what? Dog licences were I believe abolished because they could not be "policed" properly. Who would monitor the legislation?

Catch 22 I think.................but we need as a Country to do something I agree, I mean an attack is news but what about the near misses.....that never make the news.
Today alone I saw a dog that looked like to me a white American Bulldog running loose and a lady was almost in the middle of the road with her young son clinging to her and a baby in her arms to avoid the dog, the dog was not being aggresive but was bouncing around her no idea why, but I see was she was avoiding it I would say the dog would have been about her height if it stood on his hind legs. A few cars stopped including myself when a chap in his twenties flew past really quick on a mountain bike whistled the dog and off they went again..........did not stop at all..............the dog still off lead when I passed them down the road this time just onto the dual carriageway the dog darted to the otherside of the dual carriageway to the green area.............where horses are sometimes kept. It stuck in my head because of this thread.  

Personally I think that Staffy breeders should stop valueing what they call 'gameness' in their dogs - you've only got to stand around the Staffy ring to see (and hear) what I mean - dogs are stood head on to each other to encourage the eyeballing and subsequent 'sparkiness' that breeders seem to value in their dogs temperament - in my opinion this breeds temperament needs to be changed - , any aggression towards other dogs should  not be rewarded in the show ring  - the Staffy breed clubs need to devise a sociability test and only endorse those  dogs that are friendly with their own species as  fit for breeding - the only way to save this breed is to change their nature so that they don't attract the 'ard innit' crowd - if they were as sociable as the average Cavalier or Retriever with their own species the breed would not languish in rescue kennels unable to find new homes or be put down in ever increasing numbers.

Change the temperament and save the breed.

Yvonne

Yvonne,

Alas, I think that is something that occurs in certain terrier breeds, where expression and attitude is all- particularly in males. I have often seen owners (usually male) squaring their own dog up to another outside the ring in order to wind it up before going in the ring. Often, the other owner is a 'newby' with a younger dog, not quite sure what is going on. In terms of socialisation it is a highly questionable practice around younger dogs.

I've also seen dogs with highly suspect temperaments win, because they put on a good show in the ring, and the old terrier men love that sort of thing- they collude in the notion that it's all good terrier stuff, even if outside the ring no-one can touch the dog because it might have your hand off. I have never bought into the view that the desire to kill everything in sight makes for a better working terrier, but it is surprising how many 'experienced' people do.

Of Staffs I am sure that aggression towards a human would be heavily penalized in or out of the ring, because it would directly contradict the standard, but,I agree, 'attitude' towards other dogs is viewed by some as desirable. Of certain other terrier breeds some judges will only give certain big winning dogs, with suspect temperaments, a cursory inspection and leave the teeth well alone- there's a fair bit of collusion on that. And yes, these are the dogs that get used as stud and that temperament passed on, because winning is more important than producing dogs fit for life in the 21st century.

Change the temperament and save the breed.

how on earth can you change the temperament? werent they bred for fighting dogs in the first place?

Speaking as someone who has never owned a terrier, always gundogs, my first experience at a show several years ago, I had accompanied a friend who was showing a KCS. Their preparation area was right next door to the EBT's. It struck me that all of the cages were covered, and there were several who were going absolutley mad trying to get to each other through the cages. I swiftly moved on, and found it very unnerving! I've known several of this breed, mostly good natured, but don't think I'd like to have one myself.

So if dogs in the show ring are deliberately stirred up before going in to put on a better show, and suspect temperaments used as studs etc, perhaps the changes need to start there first!

As for the difference in a dog being dog aggressive and one likely to attack a person, there is no doubt being bitten is a terrifying experience (know from personal experience) but to have to stand by and watch your dog being savaged by another, usually totally unprovoked, now that would scar me for life! No dog should be allowed to injure a person OR other dog.

There was a huge Mal on the beach this morning, lady and child walking it. I watched it run up to several dogs as we were approaching. So my boy decides he'd like to go and say hi to this dog. Quite funny really because as he got closer, he suddenly did a U-turn and high tailed it back to me. The dog didn't seem aggressive, but was definitely very dominant. Main point was that the owner didn't exercise any control whatsoever with that dog.

I would think a good place to start with legislation would be to stop anyone breeding a litter unless they have certain paperwork say from the Council. Something needs to be done to discourage anyone breeding without a legitimate reason for doing so. A serious breeder, i.e. someone involved with their breed, who possibly shows or works their dogs, won't mind jumping through a few hoops.

Other than that, everyone move to the country, then it's only nasty farm dogs to worry about!!! (met a few of those too!)

It is totally possible to selectively breed for a less dog aggressive/ aggressive temperament, and many do. The problem here is twofold: you have backyard breeders who are deliberately selecting for dog aggression or just mixing things up willy nilly with little regard for the end product, save for the cash it puts in their pockets. On the other hand you have the pedigree breeder who, for reasons of ego, cannot resist showing and using the over reactive terrier because he knows it will garner rosettes. In their heart of hearts they probably know it's not right, but they and their buddies will always be able to justify it with the "well it's a proper terrier isn't it"  mantra.

itsadogslife, we have these problums in the county too, my friends old labx was attacked by three Staffys last summer. there is one on my road who has attcked so many dogs in the village and biting nighbours the paper boy and the postman, a very nice old lady owns it, she now has a very high fence around the garden, but he gets out sometimes.

I said at the begining that SBT are getting worse it must be breeding.

Just out of interest thats all so don't shoot me down in flames- if these dogs like the one who kiled the borzoi and who terrized the lady in her own kitchen and the ones on the beach could be controled safely with an Ecollar. would you like to see it, if it would work.

We have all racked our brains for an answer, I can think of one that would work and it not an Ecollar. But it not very pratical.

Not replying to anyone inparticular...

I have argued on a similar thread before and still feel the same.  I've always loved all breeds and have owned a 3 bull types in the past.  I hate the thought of inflicting breed specific legislation but agree with what many have said here re. bite strength and that it seems to be getting worse not just with individual dogs but with increasing numbers of idiotic irresponsible owners.

With all the hundreds of breeds of dogs that exist, would it really be the end of the world if staff/bull types were phased out completely?? It's not as if there are no other breeds of dog to choose from.  I think it's getting beyond a joke now and as long as there are these breeds of dogs there will be idiots to exploit them.  Legislation is going to have to come down hard at some point in the future just to control these breeds but it's going to probably hit the responsible non-bull breed owner harder...

JM two pennies worth.

>would it really be the end of the world if staff/bull types were phased out completely?? It's not as if there are no other breeds of dog to choose from.>

For me, yes!
I don't particularly want any other breed.  I love my Staffords, and to that end, I am a responsible and sensible owner of them.
As I've already said earlier in this thread, I don't know what the answer is to the problem.
Unfortunately, the law abiding, sensible, responsible owners will always try to do their best for the breed, it is those that have no sense of what is happening to our breed that are contributing to it's downfall.
I'll be dam*ed if the idiot owners that are exploiting my breed (and crosses of) will ultimately spoil it for the rest of us.

I'll be dam*ed if the idiot owners that are exploiting my breed (and crosses of) will ultimately spoil it for the rest of us.

Exactly, because it always falls on the heads of the responsible owners and well behaved dogs, I dare say people with Staffs have a horrible worry that the government may become scare-mongered one day and ban people from owning Staffords and their crosses anymore because if things continue that's the kind of answer they may come up with.

The answer is plain and simple as chaumsong keeps saying the DDA must be acted on, as well as the must have insurance I believe should happen.

Add that with if we all pay a dog license it used to be something like £7, (even if it goes up to £10 a dog it's not a lot) that could pay for dog wardens in every park or black spot areas to enforce the DDA, we need dog wardens out there walking, making fines, calling the police for back up, with dog catcher poles and chip scanner machines and dog vans to collect any un-chipped or uninsured dogs.

It's not difficult to uphold, the license and fines will easily pay the wages of the wardens, not to mention more jobs for people too.

I can't see why it isn't this simple or am I living in cuckoo land? That way decent owners can be left in peace.

The last show I was at ( Border Union ) the Staffies behaved just the same as most of the other dogs, there was only one who wasn't comfortable being close to other dogs and she was kept at a distance by her owners, I have seen the scenes described at other shows, but never there ( although I don't go every year ) wonder if the outdoor location has anything to do with it.

As to the subject of a licence, although I'd be in favour, in the current financial climate it just ain't going to happen unfortunatly. If it did ever happen a sliding scale could be used, similar to the council tax, a higher band for certain breeds, or certain area's where theres more of a problem, it might make the casual dog owner think twice about getting a breed in the first place ( by casual I mean the sort who get a dog on a whim and get rid of it just as quickly )

> >If it did ever happen a sliding scale could be used, similar to the council tax, a higher band for certain breeds, or certain area's where theres more of a problem, it might make the casual dog owner think twice about getting a breed in the first place ( by casual I mean the sort who get a dog on a whim and get rid of it just as quickly )

I may be wrong but I think something like that is in place in France... or at least in certain areas there. If you own certain breeds you have to undergo a training course and prove you are capable of owning them.  That's the gist I got from a former french member on here anyway!

decent people are owning these dogs, I know of three and they are lovely people but their SBT's are very aggresive to other dogs. These are not idiots or thugs two have had their dogs from pups but they have still turned out aggressive.

I am all for complusery muzzleing in public. Even on a lead they are two strong for some people to hold, and if a dog or puppy went over to them they would be grabed.

Not a perfect solution and not fair to some but it would save lifes.