thanks tracey I will defiantly look for them and give them a hi from you
Thanks again you have been really helpful I really appreciate it as you said about being nervous I'm exactly the same but I wasn't like that all the time just since my mum passed away which is why I'm doing this as always dreamed of showing my own dog and life is to short so am biting the bullet and going for it 
Thanks again will update when we've done the champ show

Also when can I find out  how many are entered in the show is this possible as there isn't anything from last year as show wasn't on last year

Nessa
  

Now you really need a Staffie person but I think they stand or more likely squat at the side supporting the head so the judge can see that as they walk down the line. SBTs are known as a head breed which means I think that the head is considered important and it is therefore shown to the judge so they can get the first impression of each entry before they look at the rest of the dog and it's movement.

You would find it helpful if you could go to a show where there are classes for STB and just watch, is it possible for you to get to a Championship show before you have to show yours.

Do not worry too much as a newcomer in Minor puppy the judge should be tolerant of your lack of experience and they will guide you so they can see what they want.

Nessa,

I can see you live in Surrey, can you get to the Richmond ch show next saturday to watch the Staffie's and get some advice from others there? Its located at Loseley Park, Guildford.
http://www.highampress.co.uk/richmond.pdf - Here is the schedule for you if you need directions.

>where would I stand with her facing into the ring sorry if stupid lol

Not stupid at all - different breeds are often shown in different ways. Here is a page showing a staffy club show, so you can see how they're stacked.

If you look at http://www.thesbtc.com/results.htm you will be able to see photos of dogs stacked as for the show ring.

You would stand/crouch to the side of the dog. I looked at some pics on The SBT club website, take a look it may help. :)

edited to say: opps a little late 'red face'

>>>but I think they stand or more likely squat at the side supporting the head so the judge can see that as they walk down the line.<<

They dont have to, its just some find it easier this way, especially with a fidgety dog. You can stand upright- just up to the individual

Nessa the dog is shown 'head on' and not side on if that explains it better. Theres some pics on my website (in my profile) as well

that's what I was going to do nova as I live in woking the show is fifteen mins away so am going as early as possible to get my barings and to talk to as many people as I can lol

I also tried to go to richmond but can't get there on the day I need to so that's why I'm gonna chat to the staff breeder see if he can give me some pointers

Thank you to everyone that  has replied all very good info and will look at all the links that has been added thank you I know that I have along way to go to know everything but feel I'm on the right road thanks to you all thanks

Nessa 

> I have seen this mistake by novices before entering Open.&nbsp; I would like to try and understand why people think of entering Open?
>
>

LOL I honestly thought when i began showing that i went into open.... i thought it was "open to everyone", thankfully someone explained it to me at ring craft.
I like many others when starting out find it all very confusing, it took awhile to get into the swing of things.

did you not realise though that Open to everyone meant that all the top dogs would be in the class?

No nothing in the definition gives that away.  All the others explain if not won blah blah trhen blah blah.  open says nothing except all dogs are able to enter.  maybe originally it was a free for all lol.

but none of the other classes (except age classes) allow champions so which class do people think they will be in? 

Does the progression of difficulty (amount already won) not give it away that the last class is the highest/most competitive?

>>did you not realise though that Open to everyone meant that all the top dogs would be in the class?
>No nothing in the definition gives that away.

Surely that's what 'Open to all' means? That no dog, however many awards it has, is excluded? Therefore it could be a class comprised purely of champions ...

but none of the other classes (except age classes) allow champions so which class do people think they will be in? 

Thinking back to when I started showing in the 80s, the thought of Champions never even occured to me. I may even have assumed that a dog already a Champion would not be shown again as it had already got its top honours. I was used to people in hamsters, rats etc retiring their show animals when they had won what they could, to avoid being beaten and leaving when at the very top.

>but none of the other classes (except age classes) allow champions so which class do people think they will be in?

Some breeds don't have CC's so owners treat their classes as more flexible.  In some breeds, if qualifying is your aim, you could do better in the smaller open class than some of the PG classes.  Many dogs get bottlenecked in PG

>Does the progression of difficulty (amount already won) not give it away that the last class is the highest/most competitive?

No. Just reading the explanation given in the schedule does not make it very clear as the description for open doesn't mention wins, it also does not mention who/what you might expect to find in this class, and no one is excluded from entry.  The title of the class is OPEN - and therein lies the problem.  Open, in the English language, means that there are no restrictions and unless there is a full desription given to guide entrants then the assumption is that any one and any dog can enter.  Many new people may not even consider champions, or know what they are, in the early days :)

>Many dogs get bottlenecked in PG

In many breeds it's known as the 'graveyard class' - reasonable dogs get as far as that and never qualify out of it.

>Open, in the English language, means that there are no restrictions and unless there is a full desription given to guide entrants then the assumption is that any one and any dog can enter.

Exactly - they can. :-) That's why the name is accurate - there are restrictions on entry to all the other classes, but not for Open, so logically it follows that the animals that have got too many wins or are too old for the restricted classes will be there.

Think the answer for beginners is to do as the OP has, ask questions. Like MB I never thought about Champions when I started, I ask my bitches breeder what class to enter and did as I was told and entered Puppy. Now I would never have walked into an all Group Championship show as my first show but I knew nothing but she was placed second and I did not know that qualified her for Crufts till I went to ring craft the next week and they told me.

Bit like me Jackie - I did a few open shows, then my breeder said I should try a couple of Champ shows, got 2nd out of 21 in my 2nd champ show and had to whisper to the person next to me as I had a vague feeling I might have qualified for Crufts but wasn't sure! :-)

> the thought of Champions never even occured to me

Yes I didn't even think about it, It all sounded a bit confusing, and it seemed the most logical class if that makes any sense! :)

I do think the definition of classes is clear in a sort of semi legal sense but you do have to read them as you would an insurance policy picking every phrase apart and working out exactly what is meant.

Think the problem is when you first start that the schedule seems such an exciting document that you can't take in all the information within but it is imperative that you read it very carefully or ask for help.

As you work down the list like its been said the classes are marked out, mp- age, puppy age, graduate tells what can be wons and when they have won too much to go in that class.  this goes down the line until you reach open, there are no restriction listed so you assume its a free for all.  I never thought of champions in a class either, especially something as unrestricted as open.  To a newcomer, it does read like that.

When i asked my breeder, she said although it looks like you can enter, the expectation is not to.  you work your way up.

I had my girl in open once and the secretary moved her into the right class from my entry form, now that's vigalence.

I had my girl in open once and the secretary moved her into the right class from my entry form, now that's vigalence.
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Do hope they phoned and asked you first you may well have wanted her in Open.

Again there are quite strict rules about when a dog can or cannot be transfered to a different class once you get to a show.

A dog can be moved to the right age, sex, breed or colour, but otherwise if a dog is in an ineligible class they are moved to Open.

Again it is all written in the schedule, and it really pays to read all the rules and class definitions carefully, and to do this again from time to time as sometimes rules change (Post Graduate for example, wins at championship shows, is now wins at championship shows with CC's for the breed, where it used to be just wins at championship shows full stop).

Always read very carefully the rules for any class that has 'Special' in the title as these can vary from show to show.

I'm sure there used to be a booklet available that explained all the showing regs. and classes, is it still available, not sure will look on the KC site and come back with a link if I can find it.

> I had my girl in open once and the secretary moved her into the right class from my entry form, now that's vigalence.
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> Do hope they phoned and asked you first you may well have wanted her in Open.

No she didn't, I was peeved at the time.  i only found out when i looked at my catalogue.

Edit
She would have gone in the stud book and was of a right age.  There were only two others in the class.

Could i have insisted that she put me back?

Too true, a secretary should only move a dog if requested to do so - even if you realise the dog should be in a different class you have to speak to the owner after all even if the dog is a puppy the handler/owner may have good reason to enter it in Open rather that a more expected class.

You may well have been handling for someone else and needed to go into open for that or any other reason. Very naughty and you could have asked to be put back into Open however (See Brainless above) if you had entered Limit the secretary would not have been able to put you back into Limit and you would have had to go either to a 'age' class or open, there are no other options.

She put me in an age class.  I had completed the age classes sucessfully.  I thought she was being vigilent (much to my annoyance at the time) when I thought about it the other day thinking maybe i had it wrong.  open is full of champs but others are in there anyway.  You probably just wouldn't get placed if enough of them, VHC is fine if nothing else.

I did ask her to put me back on the day and she refused.

I might contact the KC to see if I can get my placing.  wishful thinking now though i think.

In some breeds (even some with large entries) Open has the smallest number of entries so some shrewd exhibitors will put a dog in there that doesn't have to be in Open, in order to try to gain a stud book number.

I keep trying that Marianne, so far the best I've managed is 4th out of 4 behind 3 champions! :-D

> In some breeds (even some with large entries) Open has the smallest number of entries so some shrewd exhibitors will put a dog in there that doesn't have to be in Open, in order to try to gain a stud book number.

That's true but a bit of a waste of money if they don't belong there.  our Open classes are usually quite full so might as well be a spectator.  i was only the beginning of this year I knew about the stub book number.  We live and learn.

Spoke to the KC.  it turns out i could have got my stud book number and my placing, if I'd known she couldn't change my classes.  I can appeal to the KC.

It might be worth considering, whether it gets me anywhere who knows.

>It might be worth considering, whether it gets me anywhere who knows.

If memory serves me right you did not actually do the class and you would have got your stud book number because of the numbers entered in the class - so even if you do achieve this on appeal I am sure you would rather win in your own right so to speak. You will know next time that you could have asked for your dog to be moved to the class you actually entered.

As a matter of interest did they ask which show - bet if they did it will not be the end of the matter.

They did but I kept it general so they did have my details.  I did explain that I was just enquiring and seeing if there was anything I could do.

I yes you're right it wouldn't mean anything if earned through an actual placing.

Next time maybe.

hi guys

Just update
Thanks for all your input i took her to a fun show wiv av classes an used all that was said into practice an we got a 4th in puppy as she wouldnt settle in her gait but then got 2nd in sporting so she did settle down in the end lol
And i did settle with the nerves in the sporting so i know what i have to practice with MY weaknesses. So thanks again and ringcraft could see the change in me and my pup when stacked in the right way(head facing into the ring).
We had a brilliant day and tilly took it all in her stride at the show
Thanks again guys you have all been so helpful will update after the champ show
Nessa

Way to go, unlike a lot of people I do think a couple of classes is better than one class in and out before you and the dog have really taken in the experience.

Depends on the size of classes, though. I used to hate showing Goldens as you'd get in a class of 30+ dogs, stand in the ring for well over an hour, and just be gone over for a minute. Then if you'd entered a second class it would be even worse as you would be a seen dog and would then have all the wait but an even quicker glance, just a move up and down if you were lucky. And as a novice in a popular breed, just chucked out.

Know what you mean Marianne but it is a good chance for a chat isn't it Brainless ;-)

Well done Nesstaff, glad you are getting the hang of it and realised that both ends of the lead need to be relaxed and enjoy the experience.

> but it is a good chance for a chat isn't it Brainless ;-)
>

Yes and you have plenty of time to relax.