hi everyone it me again lol
I've finally decided to do 2 classes at the champ show (minor puppy and open ) hope that is ok (right classes )
The thing is if I came in the first three in minor (not thinking I will lol) but would you pull out of the open class with the beaten rule ?
Hope this makes sense to you as this is not going into my brain properly.
If any understands what I'm talking about can you please help me understand lol

Thanks in advance sorry if this is stupid
Nessa 

No, you can't withdraw from breed classes.

To be honest, I wouldn't enter Open - that's the only class that Champions can enter, so a minor puppy will be way out of depth.

Agree do not enter open with a pup do Minor Pup and Puppy if you want to do two classes. Or do Minor Pup and Puppy stakes.

Agree with what the others have said..Open is far to high a class for a Minor Puppy.
If you do enter 2 classes and win a first in your minor puppy class, you can not withdraw from breed class to remain unbeaten. This means you have to compete in the other breed classes you enter.

If you do want to enter 2 classes, perhaps a maiden or novice for a the second class, but definatley not open

I would just do the minor puppyclass myself. As others have said don't enter open with such a young dog.

Open, is open to all, but there you will meet all the " big dogs" champions etc. Far better to do minor pup and pup if you must do two classes. You cannot withdraw from a breed class to remain unbeaten so if you haven't sent this entry off I would suggest amending the class.
Enjoy your first show.

Stick with the one class that she should be in.    Then enjoy watching the judging :-)

>if you haven't sent this entry off I would suggest amending the class

Even if you have already sent the entry you could try a letter or phone call to explain your error.  Navigating entry forms is very tricky in the beginning so I'm sure you'll get a helpful response :)

I have seen this mistake by novices before entering Open.  I would like to try and understand why people think of entering Open?

What is the thought process, bearing in mind it is the last class,a nd the only one champions can enter, why do they not seem to  realise that it is in effect the highest, hardest class?  As the classes are listed in ascending order getting older and or more difficult, why would Open seem to be an option fro someone with a puppy?

Anyway as others said when entering more than one class you start from the lowest and work up.

So minor puppy and puppy, if these classes are not over large in your breed (five or less).  A good way of checking is to look at the same shows results from last year,a nd a couple of recent shows results.

I am assuming Staffies here so looked up: 

Welsh kennel club, Class 1454 MPD (6 Entries) Abs: 0, Class 1455 PD (9 Entries) Abs: 3, Class 1456 JD (12 Entries) Abs: 5, Class 1457 YD (3 Entries) Abs: 1, Class 1458 ND (3 Entries) Abs: 0, Class 1459 GD (4 Entries) Abs: 0, Class 1460 PGD (8 Entries) Abs: 1, Class 1461 LD (14 Entries) Abs: 3, Class 1462 OD (13 Entries) Abs: 1.  The Best dog was the Junior dog class winner and Reserve best dog was the winner of Open dog.

If it were me and this is typical of the entries and I wanted to enter more than one breed class for the experience I would enter Minor puppy dog and Novice dog, and then the puppy stakes.

The stakes classes help him get accustomed to larger classes with more waiting around (also a chance to calm down) and also to be in with lots of different kinds of dogs.  Sometimes a dog can go BOB, and if it never goes in anything but breed classes it doesn't shine in the group because it can either get silly or not realise it still is showing when it gets in the group/puppy group ring with all the other breeds.

What is perhaps logical for us that know showing, would not be for the novice exhibitor. This is why it is good for novices to ask questions on a forum like this before making what would/could be a mistake.

If I'm not mistaken we have already had the question from Nessystaff regarding how many classes to enter & I believe this is a club show.

If the show she got 3rd on was a champ show, you've qualified for Crufts (In case you wasn't aware sorry) so well done.

As for entering the open, can say why I did.  It said any dog, My first show so new no different.  There is nothing to say in the class definition that it is for champs only or highly qualified dogs.  Lately i've seen people who know what they're doing in there for some reason.  I did look a little daft with a pup against the big dogs.  My breeder was there and explained.  i blame the schedules lol.

If its a club show, I'll enter lots of classes to raise club funds and give the dogs a little more experience but as a rule i only enter one breed class (at champ), have been caught out a few times and missed best puppy.

I have seen this mistake by novices before entering Open.  I would like to try and understand why people think of entering Open?


Because it says open to ALL. If something was added like "including Champions" I think it would tell novices a lot more. It isn't immediately obvious now that all includes top winners. In many ways it is stupid to have it open to all. But then again I don't want a Champion class so not sure what the answer would be. "Adult" perhaps, as a Puppy winning tickets could still go in Puppy.

>What is the thought process, bearing in mind it is the last class,a nd the only one champions can enter, why do they not seem to  realise that it is in effect the highest, hardest class?  As the classes are listed in ascending order getting older and or more difficult, why would Open seem to be an option fro someone with a puppy?

Brainless, 'Open' implies open to all and could appear to be a final fun class.  Even the definition of classes in the schedule seems to suggest that there are far fewer requirements for entry given that there are no restrictions on age or wins.

As soon as you are familiar with the rules governing your hobby it can be hard to remember a time when they were confusing but it helps to consider the offside rule in football or most of the rules of cricket - sometimes impenetrable to all except the people taking part!!

To the OP there are some good books about showing which you might be able to get in your local library.  Would you like some recommendations?  Alternatively do talk to your breeder, mine spends a lot of time explaining schedules and entries to her new show owners.  We have CC's for the first time next year so we all have new things to learn.  Heaven help us... :)

Now sometimes exhibitors will enter a puppy just into Limit or Open because they think that they will be the only puppy in the class and will therefore be an unbeaten puppy. (have to say it is the curse of stewards life if there are pups in the latter classes you worry in case you miss them)

> Because it says open to ALL.

but that tells you that there Will be e competition from all comers, adults etc.  Nessstaffy what were your thought processes, as it could be helpful to let societies know why people get confused about which classes to enter.

I never got confused as I read all the info in the schedules at the beginning and the class definitions.

Maybe I had an advantage as I had already shown a  different species (got confusing getting used to the abbreviation for sexes as in dog D is male and B is female, in Rabbits it is the other way around, D is doe (female) and B is Buck (male).  I don't think I got confused over which classes to enter in the Rabbits so perhaps their schedules etc were better worded?

> but that tells you that there Will be e competition from all comers, adults etc.  Nessstaffy what were your thought processes, as it could be helpful to let societies know why people get confused about which classes to enter.
>

The schedules are all KC governed, so can not be changed including the wording.

Well someone needs to tell the KC that their wording is confusing/unclear if that is the case.

If it is a common problem then ti needs addressing, after all ti is new people they need and want to attract to the sport, doesn't help to alienate and terrify them at the first hurdle, entering.

thanks dogs a babe if you could give me some titles of books would help lol

I apologise for the topic and yes brainless I do feel very stupid but I was told always ask if did'nt know.

This is my first time in any kind of show,closest I got was crufts on telly sorry to offend any one not my intention but I need to start somewhere and here is full of knowledgeable people so here I am.
Thank you for all replies
And I will keep learning as that's why I joined this forum
Nessa

Hi Nessa of course you should ask questions and I certainly hope my questioning wasn't making you feel silly, it is just I was trying to work out why people make this mistake and what could be done about making things easier to understand.

So what was it that made you think of entering Open, and why was it you dint realise that you would be against the top dogs, so possibly out of the dogs depth?

One of my puppy owners did this once at the only show they entered, (they didn't tell me they were going as otherwise I would have advised).

>if you could give me some titles of books would help

Hi Nessa, I borrowed Showing Dogs: The Exhibitors' Guide from the library and found it very useful.  I meant to buy it but haven't got round to it yet!

I also have: Good Showing: The New Exhibitor's Guide to Dog Showing and the Showring and Collins Dog Showing: From Beginners to Winners both of which are interesting and quite helpful.

Do have a look online too I think that Higham Press (dog.biz) has useful information pages for beginners.  Try the Kennel Club too

I think Brainless has a good point though - the classes aren't very well explained on schedules.  Presumably show societies want you to enter as many classes as possible but it's on sites like Champdogs that you get explanations about why that isn't advisable.  You also get advice based on other peoples mistakes which can be very worthwhile (no loose knicker elastic, or check you have the right dog!!!).  Good luck :)

It is difficult to sort and I think most people have made mistakes, the thing is that as a puppy apart from the Yearling class you can enter everything. The Definitions of Classes is set down by the KC and apart from special classes they can't be changed, there are three types of breed classes and once entered they have to be done unless you withdraw from all competition, which you can do if you dog is unwell or gone lame.

Age Classes: these are for dogs of a particular age band and are the same for all shows except Crufts.
Minor puppy - 6 to 9 months
Puppy - 6 to 12 months
Junior - 6 to 18 months (it is possible to have champions in this class but unusual)
Yearling - 12 - 24 months (the only class a puppy can't enter and usually confined to Championship shows)
Special Yearling - being a special this can change from show to show so always check, it is usually 6 to 24 months
Veteran - not under 7 years
Special Veteran another special so check by usually for dogs not under 10 years.

Other classes are those you can win out of and the age has nothing to do with it. They are, starting with the one you can enter when you have won nothing or very little and ending with Open that anyone can enter no matter what they have won, they just have to be the right breed.
Novice
Débutante
Graduate
Post Graduate
Minor Limit
Mid Limit
Limit
Open

Now have done this from my head so it may be wrong and I hope others will correct - there are other classes like Brace, Brood, Stud, Breeder and so on but you do not need to worry about them until you have a couple of years under your belt.

The above are breed classes but most shows will have Any Variety classes known as AV and Stakes classes - the stakes classes have the same regulations as the Breed classes but you are best to read what the definition of the AV classes are because they change and can be strange and open for exhibits that live is a particular post code or were bred by the handler.
 

At my first show I entered MPD and that was it, at the second onwards I entered MPD and PD, then Puppy Stakes too. Definately don't enter open!

Please do not apologise...you have nothing to apologise for...you asked a perfectly sensible question

thank you I've put her in minor and puppy I just want some experience for me lol
Not worried about qualifying she has done some fun shows we need more practice.
at my next fun show there is a sbt breeder judging so am being introduced so will ask lots of question and hopefully take it all in lol.
thanks again for all replies will be back again with more questions hopefully not to annoy anyone but am slow to sponge up all info lol

Nessa

Sorry, thought I'd read you'd already come 3rd. lol.  Had baby brain today.

> Definately don't enter open!

I wouldn't go into the Open class with a puppy at Champ shows but often at Open shows it's the only breed class scheduled. When we first showed dogs I seem to remember there was usually a Junior and an Open class scheduled for breeds at open shows. Coming back to showing very recently and looking at schedules for the first time in ages I've noticed that for many there seem to be only open classes in the breed with AV for MP, P or Junior. So what is better for entering in that case? Are you best to go in the breed class even though your dog will be very immature compared to others, or enter AV class?

I personally always enter breed classes if they have then at an open show. I entered a 6 month old into junior, we came 2nd and bpib that day. They still have to award bpib if they feel the pup warrants it. I have seen pups being entered in classes like PG and also Open, but that is down to owner/handler having more than 1 pup to enter and handle. If there is only Open at an Open show then i'd still put a pup into that for a breed class.

I have done AV as well as breed classes when I feel I want to go under a particular judge or feel the need for more practice

That's what I feel as well Sue, but I did put her into AV MP for her first show as I only wanted to enter her for 1 class and it was on earlier than the breed - she won so I was well pleased :-D . As I've looked at more schedules though it always seems to be just Open for the breed at Open shows :-(

Hi Nessa what show is it that you have entered?
Most stafford exhibitors are a friendly bunch and will offer their help / advice if needed *waves*

hi suejaw what does bpib mean?
Sorry haven't come across this one lol
Thanks
Nessa

If you are at a Club Show then I'd recommend entering Special Beginners too. These classes are generally smaller as there are no CC winners allowed to enter (That be either the dog, handler or owner). You may get placed in this class if the puppy classes are rather large and you were unplaced in them. You don't qualify for Crufts in this class but if placed 1st or 2nd you'll at least get a critique :)

BPIB means Best Puppy In Breed. Win this and you can challenge for BPIS (Best Puppy In Show) at Club Shows or at General Open or Champ Shows you'll qualify to enter the Puppy Group.

hi lel I've entered the southern counties staffordshire bull terrier society its a breed champ show at woking leisure centre on  october 24th

The only reason I've entered
this one because I have no transport and its close by being its my first she will be 7 and half mths old as can't get to any shows this mth.
And I need all the practice I can get as confidence is not my strong point lol

Nessa

At the fun show she will be 6mths and a day old

> what does bpib mean?
>

Best Puppy In Breed.

> Win this and you can challenge for BPIS (Best Puppy In Show) at Club Shows or at General Open or Champ Shows you'll qualify to enter the Puppy Group.

This part is very confusing and slowly working through it as it comes up.  also if you get second to another dog and it get somewwhere in the line up (can't remember where, you might have an opportunity to go back in the ring.

At open shows, sometimes its necessary to enter open so ddon't always rule it out.

Nessa
Southern Counties was always my favourite breed show to go to when I was still in the UK.
Lovely bunch of people, quite a small venue (if it's still held at the same place).
Minor puppy and puppy classes will be more than enough for you to start out with (especially if your nerves are anything like mine were - takes a lot of energy out of you! lol).
Hope you enjoy the day - wish I was there too! lol :)

NOTE - in case you don't know.

Line up or Challenge.

At the end of judging the classes the steward will call all the unbeaten dogs back into the ring and it is possible one or two others. (this may not be all the class winners as if you win one class but loose in another you become beaten of rather your dog does) however (if you are a puppy you could win puppy but loose in junior - but if there are no other puppies in junior you will still be an unbeaten puppy and although you will not be called into the "Challenge" you will be called in after the Best of Breed [BOB] has been chosen to to challenge for the Best Puppy in Breed [BPIB] providing the show is awarding such a title.

Unfortunately the most difficult regulations to understand are those that relate to puppies in competition there are more that come into force because a puppy does not have to enter the classes for its breed but can do another class like AV Puppy and win and still be an unbeaten puppy and therefore enter the Group or Best in Show - this is why you may see two puppies of the same breed in the Group or BIS. (And even that is not the end of the matter as you do need to read the schedule some will not allow people to enter the AV classes unless they have entered their breed classes first providing there is a class for the - this means if you breed has a puppy class you have to enter it but if it does not have a puppy class you can enter the AV Puppy instead)

NSC - NOT SEPARATELY CLASSIFIED

You can only enter these if there are no classes of you breed at all (the fact there is no puppy class does not count)

Great, MP and P is plenty and she will be with similar age and experience dogs like that. Have fun!

tessies tracey
can I ask how long ago did you move abroad and did you always go to thst one if it was on.
I'm glad that they all very nice as well as will be asking so many questions lol
Yes my confidence is not good so big crowds with me in the middle so scary but want to do it to help me over come this thanks again

Nessa

thanks nova that is so helpful as just recieved schedule for november show which is open so you have explained it that I understand lol
As there is no breed classes for my pup so will be doing av classes instead at the open show
Thanks nova yes the puppy rules are something else hoping will understand more as I go to more shows and start talking to other people lol

I was told to do open class by someone at ringcraft and as they have more experience then me thought it was right will always check here in future  thanks for all replies and I will just have fun first and foremost if win anything will be a bonus but mainly a learning curve thanks

Nessa 

Hi Nessa, glad you could understand what I wrote, seem to have a laze (R) finger today. OH! the joys of old age.

>>>If you are at a Club Show then I'd recommend entering Special Beginners too<<<

We dont have a special beginners class in staffords

Sometimes clubs put on a special newcomers for people who have not shown the breed prior to the preceding year etc.  Débutante is for dog not having won a first at a championship show, so again will have less experienced (or less competitive) dog in it.

Novice owners of a young adult dog I bred entered our club championship show and only entered Post Graduate.  Well eh acted the clown so was last.  I was disappointed they had not entered him in Special Newcomers, Special Beginners, or Novice, as they would have fared better.

They haven't been to a show since, which is a shame as the dog has potential they just need to get their act together, and you can't do that without getting in the practise.

So remember to keep at it, even if your first results are not particularly good.

I will brainless thanks I'm not going to give up that easily
Pup and I are learning together she is doing ok its just me on the end of lead that is letting the side down lol
So practice practice practice

Nessa

Nessa, it has just dawned on me that you show a Staffie and I am wondering if anyone at your ring craft has a Staff and shown you how to stand him. I could be wrong but I think they are stood (stacked) facing into the centre of the ring - will someone confirm please.

> tessies tracey
> can I ask how long ago did you move abroad and did you always go to thst one if it was on.
> I'm glad that they all very nice as well as will be asking so many questions lol
> Yes my confidence is not good so big crowds with me in the middle so scary but want to do it to help me over come this thanks again
>
> Nessa

Of course.  We moved just over 15 months ago.
I always went to the Open & Limit shows that were held in Orpington, Kent, and attended the Champ show in Woking a couple of times (bit further for me to travel) from around 2005 onwards.
Believe me when I say, I almost got to the point of passing out I was so nervous!  Of course this can pass down to the dog too!
I never really got over the nerves, but they did lessen the more I did it, and thankfully Alfie is the most laid back dog!

If they're there (they usually are as they run one of the stalls), go say hi to Ros and Sean Burton.  They are THE loveliest people (they own Ch Hallastaff Young Arthur) and they'll give you lots of useful tips.  Besides which it may ease the pressure on you to just relax and have a chat with people :)  (Tell them Tracey with Tigerbull Valentino - aka Alfie says hi!).

Best of luck, will be looking forward to hearing how you get on.

> I could be wrong but I think they are stood (stacked) facing into the centre of the ring - will someone confirm please.

You are correct

your right nova the last time they had a staff at ringcraft was nine yrs ago so that is why I'm going to my sisters as some local fun shows nr her which will have some staffy breeders judging and my sisters friends are going to introduce me after the show so can ask these questions about stacking and maybe to go over her (dont know if I can give affix) as my sisters friend knows this person hoping this will help me lol

Nessa

so they don't actually stand with a  side view with me standing in front off there head, so where would I stand with her facing into the ring sorry if stupid lol
Nessa