This is an important excert from the last link:

"While breeding two merles together is a sure-fire way to make a bunch of puppies with major health problems, it's now also known that puppies from just one merle parent are more likely to have health problems than puppies from two non-merle parents.  It's been documented that merles are more likely to have hearing and vision problems than non-merle dogs...  and I'm not talking about double-merles, I'm talking about dogs with just one parent who is a merle.  For this reason, we don't ever anticipate breeding any of our dogs with a merle Cocker ever again...  and we would like to encourage other Cocker breeders not to breed merle Cockers either."

> The second picture is Whistler and he is a blue roan, he is slightly darker but the markings are the same Ive never heard of a merle in cockers, mind you he is a Show cocker (GB) in US they would be merle and not roan, Im really confused now!!!

No, merle is completely different to blue roan - your Cocker is blue roan and would still be a blue roan even if he was born in the US ;-) Merle is not a Cocker colour and is not seen in the breed (except as Gwen mentions in relation to American Cockers where a cross to another breed has obviously been used)

>That's nothing like the chocolate of chocolate (aka liver)  labradors ... is 'fawn' an accpted colour in Yankees? Because that's the description that springs to mind.

It does in my mind too. This looks exactly like the 'fawn' (dilute cinnamon) colour in the British Shorthair cats. Cinnamon is a lot lighter and redder than chocolate, so too does the dilute fawn version tend to be a lot paler and creamier than lilac, but both colours need the choc and dilution genes with the recessive for the cinnamon/fawn gene to be that colour and would have a pink or very light lavendar tinged nose. In cats anyway, as far as I am aware. I would have thought that the eye colour would have been a real washed out gold colour though, but then I'm only just learning about canine colour genetics, it's not as straight forward as cats and small furries. This colour is often seen in lots of other small furries. We have a guinea pig who is a similar colour, but with red eyes.

Either way, he's a stunning and handsome little man! :)

Right, I think I have it now.
Looking at Whistler now he is so close to that colour, perhaps a shade darker!Anyway have we got to the bottom of Fudge? is he repeat breeding or some albino in him?

Following Brainless' quote from the Zim piece on Merles and for those who clicked on Lucydogs link and read the piece it is also important to note the bits not mentioned - that is, the Merle Cockers he is talking about are cross bred to some degree, at some point in the pedigree. Obviously Jim Zim, whilst putting some important info about merles, has steered clerar of that one salient fact, perhaps because, as he said they were happily using merle in their breeding programme so some reprucussions might have been expected from those who bought "Pedigree Cockers" and then discovered via the breeders themselves that in fact they were non-purebred.

He does touch on one of the great dangers of the colour classification - because merle is not accepted by the AKC (for the very good reason it does not exist in the breed) those  who introduced the colour via Shelties etc and want to register them  had to pick on a colour to call them, so picked roan or sable.  Therein lies the danger mentioned by me and the webpage - not only those recklesslly breeding merle to merle, but those unwittingly doing so because of the wrong colour being given on the paperwork.  This was the big argument which raged in the breed - should the colour merle be allowed for registration, even though it would be seen to legitimise a cross breed and could be seen as encouraging further breeding, but would then hopefully stop the accidental double merle mating, or should the status quo remain, with merle not a colour which can be used.

in regards to fudge,gwen is stil trying to get to the bottom of it al.my dogs breeder does have a choc and white boy now.but she only got him in the last 3 years.i believe from mike gadsby.she has used him at stud with my dogs mum-buff.and my dogs sister-red and white.al pups have been black and tan or black and white.

> in regards to fudge,gwen is stil trying to get to the bottom of it al

Hi Niccie, got a little info, and even though I have never seen this in any Dexter descendants Mike has remembered a Dexter son/grandson who had very similar colour to Fudge - he was classified as a Red & White, but appears to have been very similar with pink nose and blue eyes.  He used to come in for grooming, so was in the Lancs. area.  Owners moved away so they have not seen him for some time.  Some friends in the USA have an idea that similar colours have been seen in dogs who have Surics Devil in Disguise re-occurring in the pedigree, so it seems the rogue gene comes that route.  Genetically interesting, but not at all helpful about Fudge's health issues I am afraid.  Will keep digging and let you know anything more I discover.  I think we can forget the whole Chocolate issue, as he has not Choc. at all in his pedigree.

thats what colour his brother was.interesting to know there are others.id love to see them

Here is a website for the breeder doing "Champagnes".  IF you scroll down the page with the girls you will see Candy Floss, and  I htink there are a couple of puppies too with colour similar to Fudge - but arrived at by a deliberate route, not accidental.  Will post more if I can any helpful info about colour link/health issues.   Please note - in no way am I endorsing this website, just wanted Niccie to see dogs with similar colour to Fudge.

http://www.americancockerspaniels.org.uk/OUR_GIRLS.html

And here is the site which shows the photo going back to the 30's (I think) of what they describe as a "near Albino"

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/28/3/103

Thankyou candy floss is exactly the colur of fudge.
Why would people want to breed this colour?it`s a genetic fault yes?so therefore breeding from dogs with this fault will cause a lot of damage?
Just had a look at the puppy pictures as well,she has bred quite a few like fudge i see,one looking exactly like fudges brother.
They are very pretty dogs,but i can`t imagine why she would want to do this

I'm glad you said that, as I didn't want to belittle your love for your Fudge.

I suppose it is the novelty value same as the other folk who breed non standard colours and coats deliberately in various breeds.

But she says she cares about the breed!breeding unregistered colours with genetic faults is not caring about the breed!!
Fudge has had endless health problems his whole life,i`m not saying it`s because of this fault,but it can`t help.I don`t know how much he can see,he gets very upset if people or other dogs approach him suddenly,i assume because he can`t see them approaching him.
Fudge was an accident,my breeder was horrified when his nose didin`t change colour.She`s not the most responsible breeder in the world,but she would never repeat the mating as she knew it wasn`t right.
For someone to be deliberatly be breeding these coloured puppies is disgusting.
I wouldn`t change fudge for the world,but he is coating a small fortune in vets bills over 5000 already this year alone.
His coat never looks in good condition and his nose is always scabby.

It would be interesting to find out whether this coat colour is indeed an issue healthwise. It may be a genetic fault from the point of view of the breed standard, but if it has no impact on health, it couldn't really be considered a genetic fault! I do know that for example fawn dobermans (similar diluted colour) do come with major health issues linked to colour, as do some other colours of course like for example white or merle. But at this point, we don't actually know whether this particular colour of Fudge is indeed linked to his health problems. It may well be (Jean Dodds does mention that light coloured and white dogs are more prone to autoimmune problems), but then again, I have an accepted colour yankee (sable) and he too has major health issues (autoimmune problems) and is on permanent medication for autoimmune thyroiditis and a special diet and occasional medication for major food and environmental allergies (and he too is very young, not even 3 years old yet).

Talking of Hes had his tear ducts unblocked,numerous ear problems and skin and fur complaints. and His coat never looks in good condition and his nose is always scabby , has he ever been tested for thyroid function?

Vera

With his nose being pink and unprotected it would be sensible to put sunblock on it to prevent UV damage.

i do do that.he licks it straight off.hes had tests done nothing came back.

hes had tests done nothing came back.
Autoimmune thyroiditis is difficult to diagnose due to the antibodies falsifying the T4 test levels. Many vets also don't know how to interpret the test results correctly due to this issue and are not aware that different breeds have different normal levels. Do you know whether he has a basic T4/T3 test or a comprehensive thyroid test?

Vera

i have no idea.hes going to need a dental soon so i will see about getting tests done again.

If you do, I'd recommend reading Jean Dodd's articles on thyroid/autoimmune thyroiditis, and then discuss it with the vet. In our case, my vet did the tests and diagnosed hypothyroidism. Jean Dodd's confirmed the diagnoses and explained why and how it worked. She is very helpful. Jean Dodds is a vet in the US specialising in autoimmune and thyroid problems.

Vera

"i do do that.he licks it straight off"
Nicci, this is from your post about your boy's scabby nose.

I've had unexpectedly good result with ordinary yellow vaseline. Not long  ago this was discussed on here, and since one of my girls had a scabby patch on her nose, that had been there for a long time, I thought I'd have a go with vaseline, as recomended on here. The effect was both quick and permanent, with absolutely no risk of ill effects on the dog. Thought you'd like to hear this, and maybe try?

This is more directed to gwen: RRs can be born, very seldom though, with a greyish coat. Not unlike that of miscoloured Dobermanns.

Karen

> Thankyou candy floss is exactly the colur of fudge.Why would people want to breed this colour?it`s a genetic fault yes?so therefore breeding from dogs with this fault will cause a lot of damage?Just had a look at the puppy pictures as well,she has bred quite a few like fudge i see,one looking exactly like fudges brother.They are very pretty dogs,but i can`t imagine why she would want to do this

It is a typical puppy farmer/BYB website I am afraid, full of bits and pieces of info pinched from other sites (not credited, referenced or even copied in full) which give seemingly knowledgable, caring advice, but leaves out lots of important stuff like health issues and testing!  Who knows why she started on this daft colour thing - perhaps becasue she went the usual route of using her own or just the closest dog, repeatedly, regardles of suitabiiity for the bitches in  any way, and produced this colour type.  Then she had to choose a route to promote it, and went the typical route of proclaiming it to be a "rare" colour!  She has removed some of the statements from the site which were plainly wrong, which included, if I remember right, something strange about the best way to acheive Chocolate colour, which had more to do with paint mixing than dog breeding!  No sign of any of the dogs on the site being health tested, the last time I checked them against the "tested dogs" list.

The consensus of opinion seems to be that this gene which has occurred in Fudge via a "doubling up" of Dexter/one of his predecessors is also thought to have a high chance of also carrying undesirable health issues with it (nicely put by a previous poster as "genetic crap" I think).  I woudl like to know more about how it works, if it is a sort of russian routlette or if there has to be an additional element to trigger the gene - we have line bred on Dexter lots over the years, although mostly with Solids in the mix too.  However, there was an accidental Dexter to Daughter mating going back about 10 or more years, which you would have thought would be likely to be a problem if this was going to happen, but produced 6 black & Whites.  5 were pet homed, we kept one, she had 2 beautiful litters (obvioulsy to a complete outcross) one containing Black & White and Red & white, the other all black and whites.  Will keep on with the research when get back from Richmond.

Thankyou,it would be interesting to know if his health issues are because of his clour,it`s been one thing after another this year with him and doesn`t seem to be ending,
he vasaline idea is working a treat,thankyou for the suggestion!