This is my first post so i guess ill introduce myself first.Im niccie i work with animals in london but am originally from portsmouth.
I own an american cocker boy,i worked for his breeder for 9 years.
He is 4 and and half years old and unusual.He has a pink nose,blue eyes and his coat is not a recognisd colour i dont think.
I was wondering if anyone could let me know if A-there is a reason why he is like it, and B-if there are more out there like it.
He was froma  litter of 5, 2 black and tans,1 red and white,my boy and the other boy was white with patches of my boys colour,also with pink nose and blue eyes.so 3 were "normal" and 2 not.
any help would be great

Hi Niccie, and welcome! You're lucky - there are several very experienced Yankee breeders on the forum, so someone will certainly be along to answer your questions. :-)

Thanx,it`s weird i worked for a yankee breeder for 9 years and she had no explanation for it.
any yankee owners i come across have never seen one like him.

Hi niccie,

I have an acs who is black..i have never seen one with the colouring you have described and he sounds unique to me.

There is a lady called Gwen on here who breeds them and what she doesn't know about the breed is probally not worth knowing..i hope she comes on and can shed more light on your querie.

Annee

Hi Niccie,  I guess, from your avatar pic (v. tiny so hard to see too much) that he is probably a very pale red and white, or is he a pale creamy colour all over?  His pale nose and blue eyes are simply the result of lack of pigment, probably due to his breeder doing repeated buff/red and white/chocolate breedings.  It is hard to see how 2 black and tans appeared in the same litter, are you sure they were not just 2 pups who were from a litter born at the same time?  There is a breeder in the South who is breeding and selling what she terms "champagnes", which is simply a buff in which the pigment has become so diluted that the colouration seen on your boy has appeared, blue eyes, pink nose, pink pads, altogether a "washed out" effect, colourwise.  This has been acheived by mating buffs to choclolates repeatedly.  (Not sure if achieve is the right word!)  If you want to email me a copy of his pedigree I can do some research and give you an indicaiton of how the colour came through on your boy.

I am sure your boy is adorable, but his colouration/lack of pigment are not what is required by the breed standard.  Happy to answer any other quesitons you have.

He is definatley from that litter,i was there when he was born.
He is one colour all over,but has a white chest.His brother with the same pigmenatation was white with his colour patches.
Mum was buff,dad black and white.
His breeder is on the south but this is the only litter she ever had with this "issue".
I realsie he`s not of breed standard,just trying to find out why it happened,it was quite a close mating.and accidental.
Would also like to pointt out that i no longer work for said breeder,her ethics are something to be questioned.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/album.php?page=1&aid=206078&id=527865455
this is him,i know hes fat now,he`s had to have major surgery in the last 4 months so was in a crate for a total of 12 weeks

He looks more like a blue merle to me, very rare but not unheard of. He's gorgeous! If you want to chat with lots of Yankee owners, try the Zim forum www.zimfamilycockers.com, it's based in California but has members worldwide including several in the UK like me. :-)

Oh he is so beautiful he is also so light coloured, def. interesting colouring what a soft pink (chops) mouth.

Niccie, he is absolutly beautiful :)

I don't think he's too big...you ought to see mine ! Also due to illness though.

I would let Gwen do the research on his pedigree if i were you and then you will find out for sure how he became to look so unique...i'd be very interested too (If i don't appear too nosey :0 )

I love the photo's of him in the New forest...i was bought up there.

Annee

He is a stunner isnt he! Ive got a cocker and I prefer them to American's but i woud make an exception for a fudge!!!! Hes lovely.

Thanks he is lovely.Has cost a fortune this year in vets bills,but he`s great.
Oh and have sent a copy of his pedigee to gwen,so hopefully she will be able to help me,and no i don`t find it nosey.

> He looks more like a blue merle to me, very rare but not unheard of.

Hi Lucydogs, acutally, merle is unheard of in Cockers - both American and English.  There is a small, crackpot bunch of folk in the USA who are trying to promote it as a colour, but as the only way it can appear is via an outcross (possibly a blue merle sheltie mated to a sable cocker) it is only seen in non pure breds.  We have enough health issues in the breed without importing a "lethal gene", which is what the merle is, as doubling up on it casues horrific problems.

There are some beautiful Blue Roan american cockers in the USA, notably the "Legacy" cockers of Polly Swanson, but not blue merles! 

Seen the pics now, and have a clearer idea of his colour.  He looks like a classic example of breeding buff to choc repeatedly, which according to his pedigree he is not!  He is so heavily bred on Dexter that I cannot understand his lack of pigment, and would incline to think that perhaps the bitch was caught by another dog too, and had a double sired litter, however even given that there sholdl have been enough dogs of excellent pigmentation in the bitches pedigree that this effect would not occur.  Am doing more research into the colours of dogs in his pedigree whose colour I don't know.

With the total lack of pigmentation in the nose and the blue eyes, I'm going down the albinism aspect.

> With the total lack of pigmentation in the nose and the blue eyes, I'm going down the albinism aspect.

I wondered about that, but as he has some pigment in his coat, as apparently does his equally pale but red and white litter mate, I had sort of shelved that theory.  Have absolutley no experience or knowledge of albino Ameriecan Cockers, never heard or seen one, will see if I can dig anything up.

whatever happened in his breeding he sure is a sweetie. what a handsome man

Surely if he was an albino he would have pink eyes?

Could it be similar to white "albino" Dobermanns? In most cases they are a pale cream colour with white where the tan should be, so not truly white, although they have the pink nose and blue eyes. They are not true albinos, the colour is caused by a recessive white gene that cropped up in the past. Is it possible a gene like this has come to the surface in Yanks? If he is very closely bred it is more likely for recessive genes like this to show themselves.
True albinism is very rare in dogs.

Very interesting case, very pretty dog :)

Hi cutewolf,  have found one paper on albinism in cockers, dating back to the early days of the Yankee breed, not got into it yet!  However, as the dog who this cute boy has as a grandsire and great-grandsire was my black and white boy who had very stong pigment, and we have used him   extensively in our own breeding programme to both parti colours and solids, including buffs always achieving the expected colours, from both outcrosses and line breeding.  There is a line on the maternal side of the pedigree with which I am not particularly familiar, although it goes back to some well known dogs, so I am investigating the colours there.  However, even leaving out the very pale colouration of Fudge, I can't yet see where the Chocolate colour would come from, so will keep digging.

there woz only 1 male dog on the property at the time.son of a gun who was black and white.mums mum was tri colour and dad either black n tan or red buff i cant quite remember.she only purchased a choc and white boy in the last 3 years.

This is so interesting...did the breeder have any idea as how Fudge became the colour he is ?

Makes my Yankee look quite plain with her all over Black colour and Brown eyes :) ...although she is beautiful if i must say so myself.

no she had no idea.mum and sister have been bred from since.obviously not using my dogs dad.never happened again.its strange how 3 in the litter were "normal" n 2 had this lack of pigment.

>as he has some pigment in his coat, as apparently does his equally pale but red and white litter mate, I had sort of shelved that theory.

It says here that white (albino) dobermanns have a degree of pigment in their coat and blue eyes.

Image

Another image showing that the coat isn't pure white.

thats exactly wot colour fudge is.but why only 2 of the litter?

Each puppy inherits a different set of genes - it looks as though two have inherited the mutation and are showing it - the others could have inherited it and aren't showing it, but could pass it on, just as these parents did.

well i hope whoever took the other boy hasnt used him at stud.so shud his mum no have been bred from again?

I don't know that I like my forum friends being described as crackpots! I don't know what you call this colour if not merle...

http://www.zimfamilycockers.com/Zuzu-MerleParti-SuwanneeCockers.jpg

or this...
[url=]
http://www.zimfamilycockers.com/Zhara-MerleTri-SuwanneeCockers.jpg[/url]

>Hi Lucydogs, acutally, merle is unheard of in Cockers - both American and English.  There is a small, crackpot bunch of folk in the USA who are trying to promote it as a colour, but as the only way it can appear is via an outcross (possibly a blue merle sheltie mated to a sable cocker) it is only seen in non pure breds.  We have enough health issues in the breed without importing a "lethal gene", which is what the merle is, as doubling up on it casues horrific problems.

>There are some beautiful Blue Roan american cockers in the USA, notably the "Legacy" cockers of Polly Swanson, but not blue merles!

The point is that merle can't just appear in a breed - it is a dominant trait so one parent must be merle. A recessive trait however may be passed down for many years without surfacing. This suggests that there was a sneaky cross to another breed sometime in the past.

I think that looks like roan patches, not merle. The two can look very similar but its a different gene that causes each, and roaning in a long haired coat will look even more like merle (IMO)!.

Still looks like merle to me - here's one clipped short.

http://www.zimfamilycockers.com/Riley-KeriLynn.jpg

And here's a whole page describing merle cockers.

http://www.zimfamilycockers.com/merle.html

so theres are others in england like him?i thought it was just a freak thing,
I would love to see pictures of other like fudge,and i`d love to see his brother.I see his red and white sister quite a lot as my old boss kept her.

These ones I linked to are in America, try out the Zim forum as I suggested above www.zimfamilycockers.com and you can chat to tons of American cocker owners!

Lucydogs, sorry if you are taking it personally, but believe me there is no such thing as a pure  bred pedigree Merle American Cocker.  The first pic. on you post certainly looks merle, and is also a very poor example of the breed, in fact looks like quite a recent cross, to be truthful.  The only way merle has appeared is outcrossing, and the thin, sometimes snipey muzzles on dogs showing this colouration is often indicatice that a Sheltie is in the pedigree not too far back.  However, because the USA leads the world in "designer dogs", teacup dogs, etc, being able to advertise a "rare" cocker colour (remember they are pretty much the most popular breed out there) means big bucks.  There are absolutley no reputable, ethical breeders breeding this colours, AS IT DOES NOT EXIST IN THE BREED!  IF you google merle cockers you will come up with lots of interesting items from folk who feel very strongly on the subject - sorry, don't have time to do so and post links now. This is  a back yard breeder/puppy mill type of thing. 

The Zim website is fun, lots of posters obviously adore their dogs, as do the ones who go to the meet ups,  but it is not a resource for sound, knowledgeable advice on important breed matters.  It is a sad fact that the show breeders are the ones who have the health and welfare of breeds most at heart, people breeding for pets only are often a little (or a lot) less careful, and cover up the lack of good reasons to breed certain dogs with a lot of fanciful, public friendly wiffle.  Yes of course it is essential to have wonderful temperaments in your breeding animals, but they need lots of other attributes too, ot make them potential stud dogs/brood bitches.

As explained the danger of merles is the gene which, when doubled up, can cause apppalling problems including deafness, blindness, and death.   So why on earth would anyone willingly introduce this?  You then have the added problem that sable is a colour in the breed (although not acceptable in the USA but still in existence)  and it can be very hard to tell the difference between poorly marked sable partis, and merles.  Therefore the chance of unknowingly doubling up on a merle to merle mating is great, especially among those doing just the occasional pet litter.

Hi niccie,
He definitely is not a merle.  I don't know if there are any others like him in the UK, I have never seen one in the UK or USA, but am talking to some breed experts to see what they know.  I have found a few articles on albinism in cockers, and there is a pic of a dog from the '30s or '40s with colour very like him, who was thougth to be partially albino.  There seems to be varied schools of thought on albinos, the most popular one being that it hardly ever occurs in dogs, but a "mutant" dulute gene can crop up, as seen in the Doberman mentioned by another poster here.

Did his breeder ever say why she registered him as Chocolate or why she thought Chocolate was a possible colour for him?

She registered him as that as she didn`t know what else to put,she`d never had a chocolate or seen one until she got the one she has now.
I would hav preferd him to be put down as buff.

> She registered him as that as she didn`t know what else to put,she`d never had a chocolate or seen one

I see, it seems an odd choice, I understand she shows or has shown a little, so will have seen Chocs and choc/whites, however, that is in the past now, and does not shed any light on how he turned out that colour.  Will have a little time on Monday to trace the rest of hte colours in his pedigree, and let you know what I come up with.  Also any thoughts/knowledge I can get from anyone about his colour and about albinism. 

You mentioned he has had some helath issues, is he OK now?

ok im not trying to cause trouble with my breeder,i worked for her for 9 years.It wasnt an easy job and i wasn`t treated particularly well,but i don`t want to cause any trouble.I assume you personally know the woman in question?
Wit regards to his health
He has incomplete ossification of the humeral condyle in both front legs,resulting in a screw and bone graft in his left and a screw in his right.He now has excess bone in his left elbow causing him pain.Not as a result of the operation a completely different condition.
Hes had his tear ducts unblocked,numerous ear problems and skin and fur complaints.
In the last year he`s had 6 general anaesthetics.and has spents coming up to 4 months in a crate with no exercise.

Hi again,  Oh poor boy, what a history of problems!  How is he now?  It will be interesting, and hopefully helpful, to find out if his colour is a sort of Albino thing if the health issues may be related to it in some way.

No, I don't know his breeder, as far as I know I have never seen her.  According to Dexter's stud records she used him once in 1997, and produced the litter which contains your boy's sire and grand-dam.  However Dexter would have been with Mike at the time of the mating, so I was not present.  But I do vaguely know her name, have seen the affix in catalogues and pedigrees and it crops up from time to time with rescue.  Not trying any sort of witchhunt, was just genuinely puzzled why he would have been registered as Chocolate and wondered if it would give us a clue.  Chocolate's are not a mainstream colour over here, but certainly exist and anyone showing from time to time at Champ shows would certainly have seen them, also anyone with an interest in the breed would look at American sites and see lots of Chocs and Choc partis, so was sort of "thinking out loud" (with fingers :) ) when I expressed surprise that she had never seen one.  Looking at his pics to choose Chocolate as a colour to call him seems wierd, was he a little darker as a baby?

Leaving aside the albino question, and to repeat myself a bit, his colour is a classic example of why buff/chocolate/red & white matings, done over time, should not happen, so the answer to your question are there more of his colour in the UK, yes there are.  The are the result of a dilution of the black pigment gene, leaving nose and eye rims pink, eyes very light amber or blue, and coat colour a washed out creamy/buff.  However as we have established that he is not the result of this type of parentage, with no possibility of a sire mix up, and you were present when he was born so saw all the litter from the begining his colour is not a result of this simple, easy to explain route.

Chocolate as a colour is recessive, so requires both parents to carry the gene, which is why I was startled to see it as his registered colour.  His sire does not carry it, and I don't see any trace of it on his Mum's side in the dogs I know, but am checking through the rest of them.

yes he was darker when he was a puppy hence the name fudge.but he was never a chocolate colour.there are a few picr of him on my facebook profile under baby fudge.go thru the other link aboveg

We cant do that unless we are your friend :)
He looks lovely :) :)
And great that you have Gwen looking as what she doesnt know about Yanks, isn not worth knowing :) :) :)
Lea :) :)
(mum of Beano Afterglow wandering hands, a lovely buff boy :) )

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=306862&id=527865455
ok this the album with him as a youngster.you can see from the ones when he was 5 and 7 weeks he was quite a bit darker

wow I can see why he is registered as chocolate :) :)
Lea) :)

Hi Niccie,

Like Lea said i can see why he was registered chocolate too...you would never have said he was any other colour.

Beautiful :)

Annee

>Like Lea said i can see why he was registered chocolate too

That's nothing like the chocolate of chocolate (aka liver)  labradors ... is 'fawn' an accpted colour in Yankees? Because that's the description that springs to mind.

i dnt believe it is. A choc yankee is the colour of other choc coated breeds.with a brown nose and eyes.he was nowhere near the colour of that when a puppy.he was just like a stick of fudge.hes much lighter now.

> That's nothing like the chocolate of chocolate (aka liver)  labradors ... is 'fawn' an accpted colour in Yankees? Because that's the description that springs to mind.

Here is a photo of a Chocolate American Cocker - sorry having to copy and past page details as can't do links:

http://www.asc-cockerspaniel.org/index.php/flushing-spaniel-show/photos/112-.html

It is permissible for Chocs to have paler noses and eyes than desirable in other colours, but not pink noses or blue eyes.  The colour is  usually more "milk chocolate" in nature than the liver colour of say a field spaniel.  Fawn is not a colour in the breed, however Buff may be any shade from palest cream to deep mahogany red.  Basically shades found in the English Cocker are the only colours found in the American.

Yes, from the pics I can see why Chocolate may have been chosen as his registered colour, without reference to his pedigree possibilities.

having seen his pics of when he was younger ,i'd say he's lilac,in other words a chocolate carrying the dilution gene "d".the blue eyes i'd say are an amalgamation of several recessive genes clicking(or doubling up) and being lilac would also make sense of the self pigment.with his health problems,most genetic"crap" is carried on recessive genes and if he's had an"overdose"of recessive genes this also would make sense. the parents would still have to be carriers or at least have recessives back in the pedigree.i have bred lilac rabbits and gerbils and they are technically a dilute chocolate and similar shade to him.some breeds call it isabella too.hope this may shed some light ,roy.

also i might add ive seen sharpei this colour and theyre nearly always called lilac or isabella depending on the experience of the owner to understand thier dogs genotype.according to dr.roy robinson in his book on dog genetics lilac and isabella in dobermans are the same colour as they are both chocolates with a recessive "d" making the chocolate washed out in appearance.but i guess you'd get varying shades of lilac/isabella.

We don't have either lilac or Isabella in the breed, but the reasoning is the same behind the washed out buff/chocolates I mentioned in previous postings. They are usually registered as Buff apart form 1 enterprising breeder who has coined the term "Champagne"!  :(  They rarely, if ever appear in litters from experienced, knowledgable breeders, as it is well known that these matings are a big "NO NO".However, this dog does not have these colours in his pedigrees but is line bred on a "dominant black" parti colour, with only a very little Buff in him, and most of the buff in his pedigree carries strong black pigment.  I am researching the very few unkowns in his pedigree.

The second picture is Whistler and he is a blue roan, he is slightly darker but the markings are the same Ive never heard of a merle in cockers, mind you he is a Show cocker (GB) in US they would be merle and not roan, Im really confused now!!!