>>I also find it funny how they could find it rude when they also can ask very personal questions in vetting

>I doubt if they would. The 'third degre' works both ways.

>Putting the boot on the other foot, how would you feel if the breeder asked you for evidence of your income and outgoings to decide whether you were suitable for ownership of one of their puppies?

But then I don't claim to or not to make any income out of breeding and that I breed for a hobby etc, etc... I make money out of working a normal job. To answer your question, I'd be quite open about my income and profession as I'm not ashamed how I earn my money. :) Quid pro quo

>I'd be quite open about my income and profession as I'm not ashamed how I earn my money.

Hurrah!

In reply too 'The Mutts'
I feel a lot of puppy prices these days are over inflated, but this site has really changed my views, so next time I buy another pedigree pup (if I ever do buy from a show breeder), along with all the other typical questions, I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings and ask how they came to the price they did, their qualifications in the breed to be able to price the pups so high and what makes their 'pet' quality puppy worth the same as every other pup in the litter of differing qualities. Unless someone can answer that for me now?

I have a friend who has just bred his 1st litter of eleven pups, even at £700 each he is just breaking even, as others have said, health testing, showing, stud dog fee, extra food, whelping box, worming mum during pregnancy and mum and pups since, registration and microchipping of pups, need I go on?
Showing may be a hobby, but how else are you going to know if the bitch is a good example of the breed?
Why should a 'pet quality' pup cost less, it costs the same to rear.

Maybe you should live up to your user name if you are not willing to pay for a well bred pup.

"their qualifications in the breed to be able to price the pups so high and what makes their 'pet' quality puppy worth the same as every other pup in the litter of differing qualities. Unless someone can answer that for me now?"

Now, in my opinion those very facts are exactly the ones that would make YOU contact that breeder. Your research into the breed and different breeders, should already have given you the answers you your questions.
There is no doubt that breeding dogs in a professional way (professional here meaning knowledgable, responsible) will not bring you any profits to talk about. On top of what others have listed already, going to shows is how breeders educate themselves. Who'd like to go to a dentist who didn't keep up with the latest reasearch in his field of work? Or to a doctor? The only way to keep your knowledge of your breed updated, is to visit as many shows as possible.
I don't think anyone has mentioned the cost for the breeder of lost income? When I have a litter, I take 8 weeks off from work, that's quite a bit of money to add to the other costs of rearing a litter.
Besides, when you buy from a reputable breeder, included in the price is not only the pup, but also your breeder's knowledge and support for the rest of that pup's life!

Karen

Would you only buy a pup from a breeder who breaks even or makes a loss then if they show? As you still haven't said whether you would ask these questions of all breeders whether they show or not.

I also find it incredibly rude that I should be expected to pay an expensive amount for a 'pet' puppy

Don't buy one then!

I totaly agree , no one is forced to breed and no one is forced to buy , if you dont like it dont buy one !

Interesting points, don't agree with most of them, but a perspective which I had not considered before.  I have always thought that by charging the same for all my pups, the show potential and the pet, it was giving the buyers a fairer option - the whole litter costs the same to arrive at and to rear, so how can I justify differing prices at this point in the pup's lives?  (Not that anyone has ever asked me to justify my prices).  I had never considered that I was inflating the pet pup's prices, just keeping an even price structure throughout, looking at it that all pups are essentially pets, the show potentials who make the grade are an added bonus for the owner  - after all, I would not expect to check up on pet pups sold at a lower price on maturity and expect to collect more money from the owners if the pup had blossomed into a Champion potential  dog!  I do tend to charge more for pups who go abroad, as extra expenses are incurred (additional vet fees, travelling, keeping the pup extra time etc), and it woudl not be reasonable to expect the buyers of other pups in the litter to pay a share of these costs.

Next point may be unpopular, but I have frequently considered that we breeders may have a bit on tunnel vision in justifying our show expenses etc as an offset (however allowable against tax liabiliiity) whilst berating the pet breeder for wanting a litter to boost the famliy income.  I don't agree with BYB, it does nothing to help any breed or ensure quality healthy pups for the buyers, but I sometimes feel a bit hypocritical on the financial front - OK, good breeding practices rule out much in the way of profit, but we do get a lot of enjoyment out of some of our offset expenses, don't we? 

I don't realy see the relationship between a breeder questioning a puppy buyer about suitability of home and a buyer questioning a breeder about income and expenditure!  I fully expect a potenital buyer to ask me lots of questions about the pups, the parents, my dogs, success (show/agility success, health of exended doggy family, show success etc).  I dont' expect a lot of personal quesitons, either financial or not, nor do I ask them.  When it comes down to it, if people are not happy with the prices I ask they are at liberty to search for a pup elsewhere, bearing in mind that buying a "cheap" pup can be very expensive in the long run!

As I said before, I'm not a breeder but just wondering how many pups in a litter have no show potential what so ever at 8 weeks? How many pups do have show potential but something goes wrong in their development? As Gwen said she wouldn't take extra money from the pet owner whose pup has blossomed into a champion, would you give a refund for the pup that didn't make the show ring despite being sold with show potential? I wouldn't dream of questioning a breeder about how they justify the price of a pup, in fact if I thought the price was low I think that I would be more wary of the breeder! Is it so wrong for breeders to make a bit of profit at the end of the day? I don't think so.

>how many pups in a litter have no show potential what so ever at 8 weeks?

It depends on the breed. In dalmatians, for example, a parched puppy (not showable) would be evident at birth, and a blue eye (again, not showable) would be apparent by 5 or 6 weeks.

> I also find it incredibly rude that I should be expected to pay an expensive amount for a 'pet' puppy to help fund someone to keep a bitch and breed from it, but that's just me.

> You don't NEED to breed a litter from that bitch, it is YOUR choice to do so

So don't pay a high amount for a good puppy, go to a byb or puppy farm and get a poor specimen for a fraction of the cost - or go to a rescue and pay about £125 for a puppy. No, breeders don't NEED to breed, but you don't NEED to buy, so what's the problem? I don't want to pay top whack for a brand new car, so I go for one 6 months old and save myself £7k - doesn't make me rant about the price of new cars, that's what they cost but I choose not to pay it.

I knew the 'going rate' for my puppy by looking on the internet for several months at litters - if I had been offered one for a few hundred less I would have been very suspicious  - why would a good breeder charge less because they love their hobby? It also annoys me when people ask me 'how much did he cost then?' or 'I bet they're expensive' - I paid for good working lines, an experienced, working breeder and her expertise and ongoing support, I could have done what my ex-neighbours did and met the 'breeder' at a motorway services and ended up with a pup with HD, but I would have saved £500 ;-)

Oh, and I didn't know how much exactly my pup was until I'd spoken to/emailed his breeder several times - I wasn't going to shop around to save £100, I wanted one from that litter and that was that! And I'd like to say he's been worth every penny :-)

>> how many pups in a litter have no show potential what so ever at 8 weeks?
> It depends on the breed. In dalmatians, for example, a parched puppy (not showable) would be evident at birth, and a blue eye (again, not showable) would be apparent by 5 or 6 weeks.

Yes, marked breed that has the wrong markings is obvious but what about breeds like labs, weims, vizlas? In Dalmatians how many non showable would you get on average in one litter? The aim, must be to get a whole litter of showable pups although I appreciate that that doesn't happen like that in reality.

>In Dalmatians how many non showable would you get on average in one litter?

In a really good litter there might be 50% with noticeable show potential. In an average litter it'd be about 20%. But as you say the aim is for 100%.

I also find it incredibly rude that I should be expected to pay an expensive amount for a 'pet' puppy to help fund someone to keep a bitch and breed from it, but that's just me. Why would you even contact this type of person, not the type of breeders I am freindly with..

If a breeder choses to take offense at my questions, then they shouldn't claim that they make no money from it and try and write off every day expenses that EVERY bitch owner has to empty their pockets for. Whelping items, puppy food, stud fee and food/medical expenses from mating to puppies going to new homes, yes. General expenses? No, that just smacks of commercial breeding, not a hobbiest at all. JMO

What breeder claims these things? you must be mixing with the wrong breeders  Mutts.. which breeders here claim that puppies should feed mother? 
Why would everyday pet bitch owners have whelping fees or stud fees? 

I think you should be careful how you word your gross generalisations.  It doesn't sound nice at all.  Your posts alone would put me off selling you a pup before a phone call :-D Whilst I totally accept there are a lot of people abusing buyers and dogs for that matter the good breeders I know certainly do not think it is the majority and not a big % on this forum.  When pet prices are over say £700 then I think the question may be valid but I don't think it is your job to ask for anyones comings and goings. If you don't like what you hear you go elsewhere.  That is just common good manners.   I am physically and mentally exhausted by the time my pups get to 8 weeks, I wouldn't want to attempt to making a living off them. :-)

You wouldn't go into a shop and for example, buy a lawn mower and then ask to see all their over heads and accounts.

I have a breed who had smallish litters, my last litter was 4 , I lost one at 8 weeks and have kept two.  The stud fee and fuel ( 1100 miles) and medical fees were £1270 this time.  Most of the good breeders on here will be the same.

My pet hate is sweeping generalizing statements.

Hit it on the nail there.  I do not honestly personally think people should be able to justify breeding just to fund showing but it at least to a degree justifies a reasonable price. 

I have one litter a year roughly with breed that produces on average 4 pups.  It is rare if I don't keep something to show.  I do a lot of champshows  17 this year and I would say about 10 open shows throughout the year.   Where I live means I generally always need a travel lodge and show travelling fore the year is about 15k mile in travelling costs.   Would I breed more to help support it? NO BUT I do work to enjoy my hobbies and reasonably comfy lifestyle.

I do however have no issues at all with good kennels having a few litters that do HELP to support their showing as the I have no doubt their breed would suffer without these types of people.

Could I do what I do with the dogs if I did not have a good enough salary/career.. NO WAY.

I can't see a problem with the price of puppies! if you want a certain breed you do your homework, check the prices, check there pedigree, you mostly get what you pay for. There is times in my breed when there is just no puppies, the bitches do not come in to heat on time and just don't concieve. If I seen a samoyed under £800,00 I would be very concerned. As they are mostly puppy farms. Unless it is a sammie being rehomed. Samoyeds go for between £800.00 and 1000.00. Why should anyone reduce a puppy from the same litter with the same parents same pedigree? If there was no breeders that took the time to breed good quality healthy dogs, there would only be puppy farms.
It is way time responsible puppy buyers and owners, did not purchase these cheap puppies and help fund them.
See where the puppies are born, if you don't, how do you know what hell hole the poor mother had them in.
Be open minded, look further than the price.

Denese

> I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings and ask how they came to the price they did, their qualifications in the breed to be able to price the pups so high and what makes their 'pet' quality puppy worth the same as every other pup in the litter of differing qualities. Unless someone can answer that for me now?

If someone I did not know was to ask me that as an opening gambit I would ask them for the same from them. Especially about their qualifications to ba able to assess my personal finances & qualifications.

Some breeds are over priced especially if they are the products of "pet"to "pet"breedings without all or some of the essential health tests.

For example I have a bitch, her DNA tests so far have cost me £250 & her hip scoring cost just shy of £200-£450-more health tests are still required if I was to breed from her, but as her hip score is too high, she will be spayed(after she has had another season as at 3 she's only had one to date). So in essence £600 down the drain as I cannot breed from her !

So I am now planning to buy in another bitch-price not known as yet. She will also need all the DNA tests & hip & elbow scoring & clinical tests which will cost around £700. before I can even consider breeding from her. My dog who I intending using on her cost me £400 plus the DNA tests £250=£650 to date & then there are further clinical tests to be done on him which will be around £350. So before I have even bred a liitle I will have spent over £2,500 to ensure that the intended parents are as healthy as they can be. If my dog's hip/elbow scores aren't good enough then I will have to travel to The Netherlands to use his brother(who is to have his DNA tests done later this year he is already hip & elbow tested)which will add at least another £500 plus stud fees etc. Meaning befor the litter is born it will have cost me over £3,000 !!

So if my bitch has 7 puppies & I sell all but one for £500 I will have not even broken even on the costs withour vet fees, food, registration, puppy health testing etc etc. I have checked with a Tax Inspector & they will take into account the health testing etc done on my currect bitch into the cost of the litter from another bitch because I intended to breed from her first.

All the puppies will be reared & fed etc the same way & even if some would not be suitable for the show ring, they will be fit for purpose(being a working breed)& therefore why should someone pay less for a puppy destined to be a pet than for one which could be successful in the show ring.

I would very much question any breeder that sells"pet"quality puppies at a lower amount(taking as read all the puppies are completely healthy etc)that to me smacks of being a business & selling "seconds"(as in pets)cheaper that top quality(as in show dogs)being the commerical way of selling the products !

As it happens I do not intend to"sell"my puppies as I already have a waiting list that will not become smaller & these people will be gifted my puppies as they will give then a 100% forever home, which is far more important to me than money & breaking even

rjs........ there are two questions here:

Can one tell if none of a litter are 'show quality' yes if you mean at the highest level and yes if they have no look of quality about them.

The aim is to get a whole litter of showable ones but for me to take my pick of them and perhaps let another go to another exhibitor. Many folk use a minor winning dog of a moderate quality with little or no record of producing winners and expect a miracle or fluke...and sometimes it happens but that pup will stand out from the others all else being equal.

feel a lot of puppy prices these days are over inflated, but this site has really changed my views, so next time I buy another pedigree pup (if I ever do buy from a show breeder), along with all the other typical questions, I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings and ask how they came to the price they did, their qualifications in the breed to be able to price the pups so high and what makes their 'pet' quality puppy worth the same as every other pup in the litter of differing qualities. Unless someone can answer that for me now?

if someone asked me these questions on inquireing about a  puppy
they would get short shift
if you want a low priced ,badly bred pup, go to the byb and pet puppy farmers
in my  one breed , puppies go for around £600 to £700, even pet people charge that for a puppy.
having only ever had 1 litter over 12 years ago.
in my other breed, puppies go for £300 to £1000
the cheaper puppies are bred by the pet,byb breeders
usually no heath testing and no thought about pedigree
just 2 dogs put together,and rescue see the results.
if i ever breed a litter of my 2nd breed
they only have small litters
i would not sell cheap or discount any puppy price.
it cost the same to rear whole litter ,plus by time you add vets bills, heath testing and stud fees
time and care into litter
most people do not make any gain
i only breed if i want pup to show.
no business element in my dog showing
i work to support my hobby as do most people i know

> Can one tell if none of a litter are 'show quality' yes if you mean at the highest level and yes if they have no look of quality about them.

Someone mentioned not paying as much for a pet as a show dog but if a breeder has a litter of 4, keeps one for themselves, sells one to someone in the breed to show and everyone else on their waiting list is looking for a pet with no intentions of showing yet the remaining pups in the litter have show potential (not as much as the first 2 perhaps) why should the pet buyers pay less? They may decide to show that pup after all. I just wonder if people who think that 'pet' pups should be sold cheaper, would pay an further payment if they decided to try their hand at showing a few months or so after they have bought their pup? After all who knows what the future brings, how many of us got our first pup and never thought they would have more than one at a time? My folks said they would never have a dog, we left home and they got one, a pet, they now have 6 and show most weekends!

I bought my first pup as pet but wanted to try my hand at showing, I didn't expect to buy a Crufts winner (if there was one in the litter I would expect any breeder to keep it!) as I was new to dogs and had no idea whether or not dog showing was for me. I didn't expect to pay any less for my pup than any that went to experienced show homes either.  Sadly my pup didn't make up as expected however I went back to the same breeder for another pup to show although he is still a pet first and foremost. If the same work goes into breeding and rearing every pup in the litter I just can't understand why folk would expect to pay less for a 'pet'.

As I said before the breeder of my dogs has always been at the end of the phone if I need her, we 'talk' regularily on line, she kept my bitch's brother and my dog's sister, she keeps me updated with news on them as well as photos, etc etc, that's invaluable.

reply to the mutts

you seem to have a problem with any show person who breeds
i,d stick to the rescue dogs then
nobody should have to explain to you
why or how they fund their hobby
most i know work to support their dogs and hobby
my  dogs  are not breeding machines, but loved pets first
then show dogs
i find you very rude
as i,m sure most do

In Response to gwen

just wanted to add that the 'wage' people add in to breeding fees for time spent rearing would be taxable as i dont know of any wage paying job that you dont pay tax on

jeangenie, i totally agree with you there :) if a breeder was to ask a puppy buyer to see their finances, to see if they could afford to keep a puppy, then i am sure alot of puppy buyers would find it very rude indeed.

I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings

I would like to know what you would say if a breeder asked you the exact same question so that they could assess if you were able to pay for veterinary treatment feeding and care for the lifetime of a puppy. I don't mind breeders checking me out but I would be very upset if I was asked that question about my suitability. As a breeder of a litter maybe every three years, I would most certainly not permit someone to have a puppy from me asking that type of question. Now, if they asked questions about the health testing on my dogs, the pedigrees and how they are reared I would have no problem. I sleep with my puppies so that hopefully they will come to no harm and should any problem arise I would know exactly the moment the problem started. So, for that reason if nothing else why would I want to sell puppies at differing prices, they have all had the exact same treatment and care.

(Just seen Jeangenies post saying the same)

>What breeder claims these things? you must be mixing with the wrong breeders  Mutts.. which breeders here claim that puppies should feed mother? 

Why would everyday pet bitch owners have whelping fees or stud fees?

I think you need to re-read the thread, quite a few breeders on here include showing costs, buying and raising the bitch etc...

Also where did I say pet bitch owners have whelping fees or stud fees? I siad it was ok to write these costs off in the costs of rearing a litter from said bitch. I think you misread. The costs I spoke of were thos that EVERY bitch owner has to go through, regardless of whether they breed or not.

I think a lot of you are missing the point I was making. If I didn't like the price I wouldn't pay it, as it goes, I paid £1,250 for my last pup. My point was, that breeders claim to be only hobbiest, yet then go on to say they write off this expense and that expense etc... including buying the bitch, showing, feeding etc... that is not even associated to the costs of breeding and rearing a litter. With none of this involved in the figures and the figures only showing the REAL cost of the litter from mating (stud fee/vet check) onwards until the pups go to new homes, in most breeds there is a clear profit.

Anyway, like I said, I think you missed some posts and read my wrongly. Either way, I've asked valid questions and raised valid points. If you don't like it, so be it. The same goes for me.

Just to reiterate, I was being slightly sarcastic re: asking to see expenses, incomings and outgoings purely because of some people claiming that they make no money from breeding a litter and the reason they make no money is because they include expenses (such as when declaring profits for tax) like buying of the bitch, raising the bitch for how ever many years, showing the bitch etc... I personally feel this is wrong to include into the costs of a litter when they have nothing to do with it. JMO
Also, I don't even have a problem with someone making money from breeding a litter, if they do it right. It takes a lot of time, energy and money. Why shouldn't they make something for that time and expertise? That was not my point and neither was it my purpose to rub reputable breeders up the wrong way. I just get sick of hearing EVERY breeder bleeting out the same 'I make no money from this whatsoever' when this clearly isn't the case.
I have no bones about spending the asking price for a pup I want as long as I believe the pup to be worth it. But not EVERY breeder's litter is the same quality and yet they all charge roughly the same regardless of expertise and quality.
It was just a few points to consider, considering most of you give puppy buyers the third degree when vetting, what if the shoe was on the other foot? Those at peace with what they do have no need to get defensive about a few points raised, so please take it how you will.
Thanks.

>Don't buy one then!

Very constructive advice.

>Why would you even contact this type of person, not the type of breeders I am freindly with..

>I have a breed who had smallish litters, my last litter was 4 , I lost one at 8 weeks and have kept two.  The stud fee and fuel ( 1100 miles) and medical fees were £1270 this time.  Most of the good breeders on here will be the same.

>My pet hate is sweeping generalizing statements.

Hi Blue, in answer to your question, I wouldn't. I'm not friendly with anyone like this. I just noticed on here that the attitude of some people is justify their puppy prices by writing off every single doggy expense they can find. No, I don't mean you and thanks for explaining your position on things. The comments were meant to generate debate and some interesting answers and comments (one liners aside) have come about because of it. That was the only intent, so sorry you find my sweeping generizations a bother, but then I also find it a bother when breeders do the same. I have had my say and have been answered, so I am going to now back out of the thread before it starts to get out of hand. Thanks to anyone who answered constructively.

>you seem to have a problem with any show person who breeds

Montymoo, thank you for your observation, but it is just that and there is no truth to it, in fact far from. I think it's quite clear from my posts what I have a problem with, but if it's distorted by some then so be it. I know many others who have kind of gotten the points I was trying to make. To those others who I may have annoyed, I apologise for my sarcastic sense of humour that sometimes may cloud my real intentions.

> To those others who I may have annoyed, I apologise for my sarcastic sense of humour that sometimes may cloud my real intentions.

I'm not in the slightest bit annoyed just interested in peoples need to justify the price they charge for a puppy.That is between them and the buyer surely.

I breed dogs for me, no expense spared and dont give a hoot how much I spend on them.

I breed very rarely, keep the best myself ,let close friends have the odd one and then I'll consider letting one or two go to carefully selected people.
What I charge for those one or two is my business.

I never make money from my dogs, quite the contrary.

> Wholeheartedly agree here, this is a topic which was hotly discussed a year or two back, with several people taking professional to simply mean breeding as a business, as opposed to a definition of the highest standards being adhered to, promoting best practice in breeding.

exactly- personally i consider people who breed dogs as a business far from professional :)

Breeders could have the same quality! just difffrent lines! if you look, say, at the Samoyeds they are all the same, but diffrent!! if you see what I mean. People look for diffrent things, just like the judges at shows. Other wise there would only be one top dog, and there isn't.
If the dog has the same ped. and parents, any could grow in to show quality. Some may win at one show and some at others. So the price would be the same. If a dog has 2 top show champ. parents then the puppies may be more to buy. So if you find that a little to much look for the parents siblings, see if they have puppies they may be a little cheaper if they havn't been shown in the ring. There pedigrees speak for there selves. That is were the price is, years of breeding to get a certain line.

Denese   

>I breed very rarely, keep the best myself ,let close friends have the odd one and then I'll consider letting one or two go to carefully selected people.

>What I charge for those one or two is my business.

But then you wasn't the kind of breeder that made me raise my points in the first place.

>You wouldn't go into a shop and for example, buy a lawn mower and then ask to see all their over heads and accounts.

Very true, but then that is a business and a lawn mower is not a living animal bred and sold to help fund someone's hobby. :) This mere comment alone is comparing business to hobbiest, so why would it be valid if as you claim, breeders are not breeding as business people? Sorry, I was going to bow out wasn't I.

Not directed at anyone in particular but just out of interest looking at different side of the debate how should a reasonable puppy price be worked out?
What should be taken into account.

I wonder how many people truly work out the amount it costs and price that way, or how many (me included) look at the "going rate" and pick somewhere in the range with which they feel comfortable?  At the end of the year , when I do my accounts, it looks like this is a reasonable price, as I very rarely have much in the way of a profit from my dog accounts.  Yes ( for the benefits of Mutts) I do have to keep dog accounts, even though the dogs  are very much a hobby, as I was self employed, now retired, and but still have to fill in Tax Self Assessments, and certainly don't want to fall foul of Customs and Revenue by not being able to accurately show the income and expenditure for the dogs.

My toy breed are a couple of hundred pounds more than my Gundog breed (wish this thread was in another area, so much easier to just name breeds!), and even though the stud fees are less the potential costs are more - I have never had to have a C section with one of my Gundog bitches, but have ended up with 4 C sections (Over 4 years) with different bitches from my toys - not inertia, just plain old stuck pups!  The girls all decided to wait till out of surgery hours, so bills from £700 ish to £1000.  they are also more prone to go on strike after a longer whelping and need a quick trip to vets and oxytocin to deliver the last, lazy pup, so more costs - usually anything from £70 up to £150 depending on needing scan etc to determine if finished).  Then they do tend to have smaller litters too, so overall the extra cost seems justified.  People who have jsued one of our boys have happily asked, and got, £200 more per puppy than I ask, I just figure there pricing is totally up to them.

This is getting to be one of those posts isnt it?
When i picked my two I picked the breeder by a) If I liked them and their dog first. b) If I liked where and how they were bred - Cocker home grown lovely bouncy bitch, very friendly and 9 very active clean, friendly pups. The lady that I telephoned and emailed was very informative, her bitch had had two litters and the Sire was the same in both cases. She was on the KC website and I could visit. I had picked my pup before I even asked the price and after cuddling him I was happy with paying £650. His KC pedigree is quite good, (I think) he's my dearest companion.

The second pup was as a gift for my OH who had always wanted a Border Collie, I researched this one probably more than my own. I found a breeder on the web, spoke to him and he informed me that my OH would have to be vetted before I could reserve a pup. My OH in a suit was up that way on business (About 85/90 miles from home) and visited. Out they went up the field with about 20 dogs OH still in a suit he would have spent all day there if he could. Any then agreed to take our money, we reserved on a litter from either Mel or Pearl both from Glen (OH met all dogs). Glen's pedigree is excellent, pups born we travelled back to Worcester to have a pick. These were not indoor dogs but barn bred, they are shipped all over the world to work and Andy trains sheep dogs. We picked one of Pearls boys with a big black spot in the middle of his white ruff "Jake". Picked him up aged about 9 weeks, his beloved companion 24/7 £400. ISDS registered. Wild as you like almost unhandled and OH has his own rather large lap dog now.

I would not dream of asking what Andy or Alison made on the pup or lost, if the price had been more than I was willing to pay I would not have purchased either.

If you want a dog, you like the breeder, the line, the look, and the price is ok - buy. If any of the above is wrong dont buy. Its surely that easy, if you want a dog but cant pay that much go to a rescue or look at a dog from a less good line? whats the problem.

I know if I spent day after day and night after night with my bitch I would ensure a good home by charging a reasonable price.  I would not insult the breeder by asking to see their account book, I know what vets cost.

I'd like to add that when i was looking for a dog i went through all the breed books to find the right breed for me. I also went to the local rescue centres, the only breed i could find that i would of been interested in was a Rottie, but none of them suited our lifestyle as we have cats and also dogs and these i found couldn't go with either male dogs or cats.
Back onto the breed books and decided my breed, contacted the club and they advised me to speak to the breed rescue, another call and they went through all the pitfalls in the breed and advised that having a pup would be the best option. Decided against the breed due to low life expectancy at that point. Moved onto my second choice being that of a Sammy, found a breeder near to me who was due a litter, loved her dogs and i am still firm friends with her now. Decided against them due to the amount of grooming and all the tables etc and felt was too much for me to deal with at that point.
Back to original breed as i just felt they were right for me regardless of low life expectancy, went to club shows for 2yrs, speaking to breeders and deciding the line i liked before contacting the breeder. Finally after another 2yrs i got my 1st Bernese - fell in love all over again, infectious breed. Very happy with breeder and also her dogs and also the sire who i had seen at shows. The last thing i asked her was the price, needed to know how much i had to hand over to her. Didn't faze me in the slightest - £900.
Now onto my 2nd Bernese as love them far too much and he was £1k, a friend got a Berner last year and she was £950, they appear to in my area be going up around £50per year, which is fine as think of how much vets charge year on year as well as other expenses going up.
So i now have 2 lovely boys with great predigrees and they are great pets first and foremost.

If i had an issue with price i wouldn't get one, i'd either look at a different breed or go to a rescue be it general or breed.

talk to them on teh phone for as long as possible of face to face.
write done some questions and ask them, and see if you get the answers you want.

infectious breed

Never a truer word spoken in jest!!!

Aileen and the girlies xxx

What annoys me is that people seem not to be prepared to pay for a padigee dog but will pay £KKKKK's for one of these supposed designer dogs! Shocking! I even had some one ask me if I would put my bitch to his dog (not the same breed) to produce some of these designer puppies. He said money was no object but he was desperate for a litter of these designer dogs. Safe to say I declined and slammed the phone down on him! I was livid! With these designer dogs you have no idea what the result is going to be but people will pay through the nose for them. That is breeding for profit and breeding to order - thats sick! I will make no profit from this litter (our first and its a pedigree litter) and will break even. My aim was to breed a litter so I could have a puppy from my bitch and the other puppies are going to well vetted and carefully selected homes. As I had the price on my adverts I only had one email saying we only have a budget of £500 to which I replied that the price on the ad was no negotiable and perhaps they should contact our breed welfare (where the family would be vetted any way). Grrrrr - if you can't afford a puppy thats not my problem, I am firmly of the belief that if you can't afford the price you probably can't afford to keep the dog. At least with my puppies I will hopefully keep in touch with the owners (only one is not local) and in my puppy contract of sale it states that if circumstances change the pup is to come back to me and I will source a suitable home or keep the puppy. Also all of my puppies will have endorsements on them. They will all be vaccinated and microchipped. In the end you pay for what you get.