How to people put up with the request for puppies and then when you notify them of the price they are shocked and claim that they thought it would be cheaper as they dont want to breed or show said puppy!
Surely if you dont want to pay pedigree prices you go to a rescue or something, How easy do you find it to sift out these kind of people as i feel if they dont want to pay this price now what would they do if theyre pup needed anykind of treatment, not the kind of homes id want a pup of mine going to?

I have found the easiest way to avoid the shock horror re prices is to have the price in any advert.

Usually those who have come direct to me via website or breed club expect to pay about what the price is, many are surprised they are not more as they breed is low in number.

My breed also is rare in this country and i feel the price is cheap considering and it also includes vaccination and microchipping but this does not seem to satisfy, these request are coming direct from the KC puppy list and there was no option to add a price, i think next time i shall not put my add on there, still got a few years to then phew

Then I would politely reply that the price is the price and not negotiable.

yeah i shall do i just find it a bit on the bizarre side, another gripe is when they say i saw your add on kc list is there any bitches when it clearly states there isnt lol do they bother reading

People like this really irritate me!

If they had researched the breed correctly they would know what price they would expect to pay. I had a request last week where someone wanted to pay me half now and half next month when he gets paid as he didn't expect price to be so high, if not could he pay me on his visa card! You can guess what I said to him!!! Other people say but I'd be giving it a really nice home, I live near a field and will really spoil it.. I always point out that people that want to pay full price may also live near a field and will give it a really nice home.

Like you said, what would these people do if the pup got sick and needed veterinary treatment. Crazy.

I never buy my dogs to show or breed and would never expect a 'discount' because of this. People who are shocked at the price obviously didn't do their research and would make me question if they could afford the insurance, the routine vet bills, the quality food and odds 'n' ends that go with keeping a dog.
The thing that really bugs me is when people ask how much I paid. I even had one guy say 'what a waste of money' when I told him I had no intentions of breeding.

I'd say that anyone who has thought about getting a puppy for some time, whatever the breed or cost involved to purchase, have had time to do their research into prices for any particular breed at the very least.

There is no denying some breeds are very expensive but it is just an initial cost, once the pup is home they all cost more or less the same to keep. I'd be questioning whether they could afford day to day expenses.

That said, our recent litter, many people commented they thought they would be more... damn and blast!! I could have asked for an extra £50 or £100 but decided it would be too confusing. More important to me that the pups went to the right homes at the end of the day... and that's exactly what happened.

You would be amazed that people  who do want a rescue dog but  stipulate must be this must be that and want the perfect dog they are also amazed they have to be vetted and homechecked.

If people quibble about the price simply say well "in that case one of my dogs is not for you !

I bred a litter last year the first for ten years it cost a fortune doing everything  correctly  but luckily no one questioned the price  or I would have forgotten my manners  :) I didnt have to advertise only mentioned them on my page on here and there were lots of enquiries.

> You would be amazed that people  who do want a rescue dog but  stipulate must be this must be that and want the perfect dog they are also amazed they have to be vetted and homechecked.

Hm memories of my friend who did Great Dane rescue, a woman rang up for a rescue bitch, had to be 2 years old, harlequin, well marked with a good pedigree, my friends parting words were"wouldn't we all"just before she put the phone down !

>I'd say that anyone who has thought about getting a puppy for some time, whatever the breed or cost involved to purchase, have had time to do their research into prices for any particular breed at the very least.

I think a lot of people don't expect puppy prices to have risen so much since they last bought one!

The price in my breed has only gone up by 50 over past 3 years and are 600 now which as far as im concerned is a very good price.
Also by expecting to pay less for just a pet dog are they saying its ok to have a lesser quality animal, i think its the typical something for nothing attitude.

> The price in my breed has only gone up by 50 over past 3 years and are 600 now which as far as im concerned is a very good price.
>

That's the same in my breed the price rises by about £50 every few years, and is incidentally the same as yours which seems to be about the well bred average in medium size breeds.

This equates to increasing rearing costs and earnings.

>The price in my breed has only gone up by 50 over past 3 years and are 600

Yes, but if they bought their last puppy 14-odd years ago when they were £200, the jump to £600 (that's allowing for a 10% inflation rate, which is way in excess of reality) is quite a surprise!

That's the same in my breed the price rises by about £50 every few years,Which is the norm I think.   Your breed folk are not particularly greedy nor are mine certainly considering our litter average at 4 puppies.

Inflation % must be calculated again each year as you have to add the % it increased to the new calculation.  The RPI is nil just now but I would say it is fair to increase your price 5% per year.

IE

Year 1 £300 + 5% = £315
Year 2  £315 +5% = £330.75

At year 14 it is £594  at 15 years it is £625

8 years ago I bought a puppy for my breed at £400 and £550  at 5% rise per year since then  £590- £800  our breed sells for around £600-£700 from north to south..

Yes, but if they bought their last puppy 14-odd years ago when they were £200, the jump to £600 (that's allowing for a 10% inflation rate, which is way in excess of reality) is quite a surprise!
Ok I am being picky but that would be around 8% and I think even 14 years ago most puppies were nearer £300 that £200..

I can only use my breed as an example but puppies were around the £500 for about 8 years. Only really just increasing in the north to nearer £600-£650.. you will always get the extremes of course.

>Inflation % must be calculated again each year as you have to add the % it increased to the new calculation

Absolutely. :-)

With a steady 10% inflation rate (which we didn't have!) £200 in year 1 would be £220 in year 2; £242 in Year 3; £266 in Year 4, £292 in Year 5, £322 in Year 6; £354 in Year 7; £389 in Year 8; £428 in Year 9; £471 in Year 10; £518 in Year 11; £570 in Year 12; £627 in Year 13; £689 in Year 14 ... etc

(Aren't calculators fun to play with? :-D :-D)

I think one think difficult for breeders is the tying puppy prices to general inflation or the RPI index as it doesn't measure doggy things closely enough :-D :-D   but if you think of some of the things that has weighed heavily on our hobby making it near impossible for some to show now .

Compare these below on a year on year change over 10 years;  

fuel cost
dog food
veterinary costs
Show entries including catalogues, parking etc.

Ok don't unless you are brave enough :-D

The breed i have seem to be going up around £50p/year, we aren't far off the Newf prices from what i have been reading.
Though speaking to someone last night who has Bulldogs, a well bred one(as we would hope they'd all be) come in near £2k, wow!! Then she told me how difficult they are to whelp etc etc etc, very difficult breed, so makes sense then.

Re bulldogs - why are they £2000 +, really, this is a genuine question ?
They are not exactly the healthiest breed on the planet and life span can easily be as little as 6 years.
So what they can be difficult to mate. So what a lot of them need often pricey c-sections - one of my girls had a c-section and I kept the only two pups she had ! But then I don't breed with financial gain on my mind !
And lets face it, they are not exactly rare in the UK either, there are always plenty of pups around.
Also, do they have any required (and expensive) pre breeding health checks - such as my breed has ?

> Then she told me how difficult they are to whelp etc etc etc, very difficult breed, so makes sense then.

£ 2000 is the rate because everyone else is asking that price..even if self whelped..owns own stud dog..no vet intervention...you name it.

The do because they can..same with Chis.

Last litter I had, travelled 800mile round trip, top stud fee, ceasar £750, two male pups kept one - sold one.....did I charge more? NO

I'm sure someone can explain  how Newfs can have litters in double figures, usually self whelp and yet they charge the earth - approx £1200?

10-12 pups at £1200...wow

WOW indeed. It is something I have never been able to get my head round - the excuses for pricey pups are just that - excuses - and as you say, not even applicable in some cases.

Ha and people have the cheek to complain the price for a spitz is £600! now i really think theyre having a laugh.I shall be sticking to my guns if they cant pay that price they shouldn't be having one. Thank heavens my breed is not a popular exploited one.

I have just had a reply saying £600 is too much for one of my pups too,  as they only want a family pet. I don't usually respond but this time I did send an email back wishing them good luck in finding dog that would be suitable for a pet in my breed for less than that. Anything cheaper will be from working lines and totally unsuitable for a pet and probably not health tested and certainly not reared with the care I give mine.
I have been keeping track of what I have spent on raising this litter so far and it is frightening.

My medium size breed with first time litter for the bitch costs about £1800 to rear.

I have had some terrible people with the litter we have just had, never had people bartering with me before - one woman even had the nerve to say that £750 was to much and she would give me £250!!!!
Having said this I have only managed to sell one puppy out of 2, it looks as if I am going to have to keep one - glad I didnt have 12 to sell!!
But prices dont seem to have any pattern - my breed sell for £750 (normally without any problems) yet my sister is about to buy one of Brainless"s breed and it is only £500 (does that sound right Brainless - or should my sister be wary?? they are accredited breeders) yet that breed are rarer than mine and bigger - doesnt make sense really!! No way would I pay £2000 for a bulldog!
Becki

> my sister is about to buy one of Brainless"s breed and it is only £500

As far as I know £600 is the usual price give or take £50. 

We have had a couple of predominantly male litters recently so that may be the reason for a slight discount.

Or it could be someone who hasn't bred in a few years and is a little behind with the usual price.

Thanks for the reply Brainless

> I have had some terrible people with the litter we have just had, never had people bartering with me before - one woman even had the nerve to say that £750 was to much and she would give me £250!!!!
>

Me too!  I've never had so many people say there is a credit crunch, and they can't afford the asking price.  This week I quoted £500 on a pup, and when they thought it was far too much, I wondered how they were going to feed it, vaccinate it etc.  I'm afraid I would rather keep a pup than haggle over the price.

>I think one think difficult for breeders is the tying puppy prices to general inflation or the RPI index as it doesn't measure doggy things closely enough     but if you think of some of the things that has weighed heavily on our hobby making it near impossible for some to show now .

I feel a lot of puppy prices these days are over inflated, but this site has really changed my views, so next time I buy another pedigree pup (if I ever do buy from a show breeder), along with all the other typical questions, I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings and ask how they came to the price they did, their qualifications in the breed to be able to price the pups so high and what makes their 'pet' quality puppy worth the same as every other pup in the litter of differing qualities. Unless someone can answer that for me now?

Also, from someone who has had some very expensive and self funded hobbies... what makes dog showing so different that a breeder can still be classed as a hobbiest even though there is a business element to it?

Thanks.

> I'm sure someone can explain  how Newfs can have litters in double figures, usually self whelp and yet they charge the earth - approx £1200?
>
> 10-12 pups at £1200...wow

seriously?

> Also, from someone who has had some very expensive and self funded hobbies... what makes dog showing so different that a breeder can still be classed as a hobbiest even though there is a business element to it?
>

breeders sell pups to try and break even. its also a basic level of vetting (though obviously far from the most thorough form). other hobbies can and do do the same- selling crafts etc

i have to agree with the post above anyone who has a dog knows the dog has to be fed wether it is a show dog or a pet dog and i see showing as someones hobby nobody is forced to do it so putting expenses out of a litter to offset showing costs and food for the bitch i find abit silly, when someone is having a litter and take off costs to feed the litter, registrations etc they have to make a profit.

they cant surely say well showing is expensive when it is there choice nobody is forcing anyone to breed a litter

> I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings

A lot of reputable breeders would find that incredibly rude of you.

> so next time I buy another pedigree pup (if I ever do buy from a show breeder), along with all the other typical questions, I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings and ask how they came to the price they did, their qualifications in the breed to be able to price the pups so high and what makes their 'pet' quality puppy worth the same as every other pup in the litter of differing qualities. Unless someone can answer that for me now?
>

So are you only going to ask these questions of breeders that show? or all breeders?

>food for the bitch i find abit silly, when someone is having a litter and take off costs to feed the litter

You also need to feed the litter before it's born, remember. A bitch that isn't in the peak of health and fitness doesn't bode well for the puppies.

At the peak of lactaction - when the pups are about three or four weeks old - the bitch will be eating about four times her usual maintenance ration; she will still be eating more even when the pups are being weaned.

hi i understand a bitch will need considerably more food in pregnancy and whelping etc but if you have 5 pups at £500.00 = £2500.00 i cannot see that breeders dont make a profit and as we can all see from above breeder are charging alot more that £500. im not saying that breeders dont plough there money in to other things but that is there choice to persue a hobby etc and should not be counted on the price one gets from a litter

> they cant surely say well showing is expensive when it is there choice nobody is forcing anyone to breed a litter

no one is forcing you to buy a pup either.

breeders pour money and time into their breeds, why shouldn't they charge for the pups?

its also not just a hobby, its in its way a profession. a good breeder will invest a great amount of research, travel and time in acertaining if their stock are of a quality to breed. this is done through showing.  litters are bred to further their line and the 'surplus product' (meaning gorgeous loved puppies) need to be found homes.

i have no problem with shelling out a fortune for the right pup because i appreciate the work a good breeder will have done to get me the best pup possible.

and i can think of few hobbies so expensive that don't have recompense themselves.

hi

i agree with some of what you have said but if it is ''a profession'' then surely i can understand as everyone would be liable for tax

My Breed sell for around the £900 - £1000 mark and personally when I think of all the hard work, feed, vet, showing costs etc.. it is a fair price to pay for a pup.
If you just take the cost for one litter and split it between the number of pups you could end up with a huge variety of prices, ie the singlton with, stud fee, C-sect, problems with pup and possible extra vet costs, food for Mum and pup and extra time and work may come out at around £1,300. What if, heaven forbid..  Mum were to be lost at whelping? do you add in the repacement cost? as opposed to the easy litter no vet intervention at whelping 7 or 8 nice happy healthy pups then it could be low..£300 maybe.
Those of us who breed maybe a litter every year or so must also calculate our pups cost to the average price around from the larger breeders. For a small time hobby breeder/shower the influence both in the ring and the breeding circle could be devastating if we were to sell our pups at a huge reduction on the average price.
The monetary burdens of a less than perfect littter over the years is balanced by the profit (I hate to use that word but it portrays what I mean) on the better litters and over a period of time equals itself out.
I do believe there is however a cutoff piont and think £2,000.00 for a Bulldog too much, however I think a well bred dog of any breed is worth every penny of  the £600 - £1,000 cost with some deviation for small litters or rare breeds.
Many feel that the showing is a hobby and not nessesary for the production of a litter however as we should all know on CD it is our showcase and not only tells us the breed qualities of our stock but also gives us a platform from which to place puppies. Many of my Pups would be looking for forever homes still if it were not for the platform of the show rings. so this is a justifyable cost in my mind to the cost of a litter.
There off my soap box now!!
Aileen

Take off £500 for the pup they keep, take of price of pup for stud fee, take of the cost of health tests for the bitch as well as health care, none of which should be scrimmped on.  Then there is whelping equipment which doesn't all last for more than one litter although some will, food, wormers litter checkup before homing.

As the price you have quoted is about what a BC can cost then I will list health tests for you with average price
Starting with annual eye test £42
DNA for CEA approx £100 depending on exchange rate oh and add on vets costs for blood drawing
DNA for CL approx £56 if done from same blood sample as CEA
DNA for TNS approx £45 dependant on exchange rate also vets cost again as these go to a different county to the CEA bloods
Hip Scoring  my vet last one done in February this year total £116
Bear Hearing Test  average about £20 + VAT if no sedation used more if dog needs to be sedated dependant on body weight
Eye Test For Glaucoma £42 seperate test to annual eyescreening
Eyescreening for puppies £40 for litter of 5 £8 per pup for each extra pup

There will also be the costs of shipping the bloods and transportation to testing 

I'm not a breeder and have no intentions of ever breeding but I just wanted to say that I have no problems what so ever in paying money for the right pup as I have done but I also have no problem in the breeder making a bit extra for all the work they have put in. I don't think anyone has mentioned the help and advice that many breeders give after the pups are sold. I have 2 dogs from the same breeder who is a 12 hr drive away but we keep in touch via emails etc and have become friends. I know that she is there if we have any problem no matter what it is, that is invaluable to me as I have a breed that is few and far between in Scotland.

> but if it is ''a profession''

i used the word profession because to me a good breeder should have professional attributes- knowledge and understanding, a supportive attitude and a drive to do it right, not as in a job.

you are liable for tax if you make large profits on it, as puppy farmers do. hobby breeders rarely break even and so are not liable for tax, even when you take the show hobby out of it. can one of the breeders provide average figures? eg buying a bitch, feeding a bitch, health testing, post and pre natal care, hours worked with a litter etc?

edit- ah, satin collie did already

> we keep in touch via emails etc and have become friends. I know that she is there if we have any problem no matter what it is, that is invaluable to me

exactly

so next time I buy another pedigree pup (if I ever do buy from a show breeder), along with all the other typical questions, I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings and ask how they came to the price they did, their qualifications in the breed to be able to price the pups so high and what makes their 'pet' quality puppy worth the same as every other pup in the litter of differing qualities. Unless someone can answer that for me now?


I wouldn't bother even phoning anyone at all as they would hang up on you by the second sentence for being such a rude person.

You should know what price the breed on average sells for before even picking up the phone.

> you are liable for tax if you make large profits on it,

Actually you are liable for declaring for tax purposes if you make any  profit, on breeding or any other activity.  You then offset your tax free allowance for the year against this and any other income to see if you need to pay tax.  You may find, when doing your sums (or accounts) that you profit is very small, and year after year would not bring you up to a taxable level if all of your income is lower than your tax free, but this is a very low income indeed.  However, in that instance, the Tax Office may well decided it  is not worth you filing a Self Assessment tax return.  Most cases, with any reasonable level of liveable income you will be above your tax free allowance and therefore all profits will be taxable  (as explained in several posts on this thread, that is profits not total sales receipts).

Your local tax office will clarify what can be considered allowable expenses to offset, if you don't want to consult an accountant.  Show expenses are rather like promotional costs in other businesses, they are a sort of shop window or testing ground for your stock so are usually allowable - although I think Revenue may look hard at accounts which had excessive overseas travelling to shows when all pups were sold in the UK, for instance.

> i used the word profession because to me a good breeder should have professional attributes

Wholeheartedly agree here, this is a topic which was hotly discussed a year or two back, with several people taking professional to simply mean breeding as a business, as opposed to a definition of the highest standards being adhered to, promoting best practice in breeding.

I have a breed known for difficult whelping.  Usual litter size is 1-3.  One of my girls, nice and large, mated to a tiny male should have whelped easily.   She needed a C-section in the early hours, which cost £1,086 although I have paid as little as £648 when a bitch has needed a section during office hours.

This bitch had one puppy, so, adding the stud fee costs, feeding etc.  I would have needed to sell very high to cover costs.  As my aim is to breed a self whelping line, I never keep a dog from a bitch that doesn't self whelp.  However much I want a show puppy, it would defeat my aim.  The bitch was spayed when pup was 12 weeks old, which is my normal practise after a C-section.  Add that cost as well, and we are talking about a pretty expensive puppy!

I let the pup go at pet price to a home that understood entirely why breeding restrictions were on the KC paperwork.  My girl is now a much loved pet.  I wonder how much people think I made on that litter? 

>> I am going to ask to see the breeders records for incomings and outgoings

>A lot of reputable breeders would find that incredibly rude of you.

I also find it incredibly rude that I should be expected to pay an expensive amount for a 'pet' puppy to help fund someone to keep a bitch and breed from it, but that's just me. I also find it funny how they could find it rude when they also can ask very personal questions in vetting, why they should not expect the same to come from any propective owner rather than the owner just take their word for it. As the owner of a bitch also, I wouldn't dream of charging someone for the cost of the enjoyment my bitch gives me, buying the bitch (£1,250), food for the bitch, health care for the bitch, showing the bitch etc... would not even be considered in towards me breeding a litter from said bitch. You don't NEED to breed a litter from that bitch, it is YOUR choice to do so and I find it incredibly rude how breeders try to offset their costs through breeding yet judge pet owners for having the money to keep an animal solely out of their own pocket. That's just how I see it.

If a breeder choses to take offense at my questions, then they shouldn't claim that they make no money from it and try and write off every day expenses that EVERY bitch owner has to empty their pockets for. Whelping items, puppy food, stud fee and food/medical expenses from mating to puppies going to new homes, yes. General expenses? No, that just smacks of commercial breeding, not a hobbiest at all. JMO

hi

whilst im sure most wont agree with the post written above by themutts i have to say it does lay down some valid points about the vetting that breeders do etc and the cost they like to offset and i think breeders should read it constructivly and see there are some valid points here JMO

>I also find it funny how they could find it rude when they also can ask very personal questions in vetting

I doubt if they would. The 'third degre' works both ways.

Putting the boot on the other foot, how would you feel if the breeder asked you for evidence of your income and outgoings to decide whether you were suitable for ownership of one of their puppies?