don't punish the bad behaviour, reward the good.

Do you not think bad behaviour in humans should be punished then? I for one can understand in animals bad behaviour is not that, after all animals do not think like we do and they are not intentionally behaving "Badly" just that to us it is "unwanted " behaviour. However humans have the capacity to understand what "Bad" behaviour is and IMO need punishment, admittedly in this case also some teaching and maybe phycriatric help. But to those humans who INTENTIONALLY exhibit true "BAD" behaviour then punishment is required. We cannot compare the two.
Aileen

Edited to say I do not think physical punishment is the way to go however but a punishment is needed.

i have been thinking about this ever since i read goldiemad's post last night.what she has done is terrible,but there must be a point at which she can be understood and ultimately forgiven.i think that somewhere in her life she feels powerless and has exerted her frustration at this on a powerless dog.someone qualified to find these things out and to help put thigs in balance is urgently needed for her and her family.i deeply hope that she turns a corner in her life and is supervised in some form of animal care and understanding-she has to learn how to empathise with the suffering of others.if it's proved that she can't then she must be psychotic and that means a whole dfferent course of action.i fully expect to have scorn rained down on my head but i do believe that especially if caught early this girl will grow up to be good.i hope so-but what good is a witch hunt in this case.

Yes, I do think she should be punished but it should be in proportion to the fact she is a child and her understanding of how wrong her actions were in the first place. ie it is wrong to punish a child if they were never told or understood in some other way that something was wrong, for instance it would be unfair if she has been brought up being hit for wrong doings. 
It should never be physical punishment and it most definately should not involve throwing her to the howling masses!

I never said it should Isabel, but I still think she should have some punishment to help her understand that she cannot do this sort of thing without repercussion! (sp!)
Aileen

> I never said it should Isabel

I know. I was agreeing with you :-) and expanding a little to include comment on other posts.

I would just like to add that the person filming was a neighbour who had witnessed the girl being cruel to the dog BEFORE on a few occasions and had decided to film an attack in the hope of proof and prosecution.

Yes, they mentioned that in the report.

Hi poppity

I don't think you should have 'scorn rained down' on you :)  I think you made some very salient points and looked at this from a very balanced POV.

I cant bring myself to watch the video and so have only read the report on the page and it filled me with horror initially but having given more thought and taken on board the opinions of other members (we all look at things differently - even if we draw the same conclusions) I feel the main things to be gained here are that the dog's owner has learned a valuable if painful lesson and this child will, please God, receive some counselling at least.

However we look at it, this is 'unacceptable' behaviour and IMO it's important that how it is dealt with now that things have come to light should not be classed as 'unacceptable' either.  Punishments fitting crimes in the adult population do not, thankfully in the UK, lead to corporal punishment.  At 12 this girl is not an adult or even close to being one and I've formed the opinion that she has serious underlying issues of some sort which should be carefully investigated by suitably qualified experts.

Let's not let humanity fall short of being extended to humans :(

> Our childhood can shape the way we are - learning as a child to care for another living being must teach something

Working with children i wholeheartedly agree with that, however i think it is too late for this little girl to be intrusted with caring for ANYTHING be it animal or human. I too would be once bitten twice shy and would never ever let her have one of my animals to care for

> don't punish the bad behaviour, reward the good.
>
>

this works as a great incentive but after something has been really done wrong a punishment needs to be carried out too & privilleges taken away

don't punish the bad behaviour, reward the good.


Sorry pinching this quote from Merlot's response as I am in complete agreement.

I was thinking if for instance that were one of my boys doing that to our dog, (never in a million years) but if it were what would my reaction be........let's sit down and educate you? NO, he would get a blooming good rollocking, be sent to his room for a week, I would probably give him a clip around the ear as well, no tv, no music, no going out at all and during that time I would then re-educate as to the how's and why's of dog training, I would then have him pick up every piece of dog poo, feed, water and groom the dog for a month under supervision, no way would he not know for a second that his behaviour was a disgrace.

Human's over the age of 5 know darn well something like that is wrong unless they are copying their parents behaviour.

Carrington, that's an excellent post.

> Human's over the age of 5 know darn well something like that is wrong unless they are copying their parents behaviour.

Exactly.  Not sure how you can make this point in the same post as suggesting a child should have a "clip round the ear" though.  Parents, teachers, policemen should all be demonstrating to children that there are far better ways of teaching good behaviour. 

Working with children i wholeheartedly agree with that, however i think it is too late for this little girl to be intrusted with caring for ANYTHING be it animal or human. I too would be once bitten twice shy and would never ever let her have one of my animals to care for

Why is it too late ? She is very young and maybe be open to education so not sure why you have written her off ? Doesn't everybody deserve a chance to make amends for things they have done wrong in their lives  as we all make mistakes.

At 12 years old she is not that young & if her parents are not buying her a puppy i cant see anyone in the neighbourhood being happy to let her use thier dog to be 'educated'

> Yes, I do think she should be punished but it should be in proportion to the fact she is a child and her understanding of how wrong her actions were in the first place.

i think at 12 she knows full well that what she was doing was nasty, spiteful and cruel.

As i said in my post...i know others will be of different opinions to me but i have no sympathy for her what so ever, regardless of her reasons, i would not tolerate animal cruelty in any form from any age!

Grounding her is simply not enough :(

>and maybe be open to education

maybe help out at a dog training class, to learn the right way to train a dog.  Although I think she should also have some sort of punishment to show her that what she did was wrong (removal of priviliages or something) I dont believe hitting a kid can do any good.

> however i think it is too late for this little girl to be intrusted with caring for ANYTHING be it animal or human. I too would be once bitten twice shy and would never ever let her have one of my animals to care for

Sorry to say that I have watched the video.  However much anyone feels sorry for the girl - I wouldn't be volunteering my dogs to be used in helping her overcome her problems.  I couldn't have her near them - even supervised. 

From what folk have said, I understand that she was teaching the pup to walk on a lead.  By standing on its tail while she kicked it in the face

Difficult though it must have been to do, and not sure that I could have watched this incident without intervening - the person who filmed it did the right thing.  Without this proof, dogooders would have said that the story was exaggerated, she couldn't have been that spiteful etc.  For those that haven't watched it - the dog tries to appease her while being kicked.

The dogooders that want her to work with children and animals, to address her problems, can use their own children and animals.

Oh dear I thought I was going to faint with that link, Freds Mum that does need a warning. Im so sad and I feel ill that we are here in 2009 discussing kids being vindictive and vicious these kids are SICK. Those among us who have children will be horrified that this type of behaviour is not seen for what it is an abomination.

How can anyone condone this action? a child learns from day 1 what is acceptable and what is not at 12 this should have been instilled. Back to people not knowing what their kids are up to or even who their kids are!

The girl needs treatment and any, any animal protected against her. Im not one for capital punishment, but killing or harming a dog/cat/donkey/budgie/baby/horse whatever is SICK and needs sorting out either by a custodial sentence, phsyciatric treatment whatever because that is not normal and we aso shoud be protected against this type of vicious psycopathic nature - no sympathy, no morals, no feelings. No more words DISGUSTING.

What about right and wrong where have we gone wrong when members of our society cannot teach our children right from wrong or prehaps we need the govt to pass a law on that too.

If there were far better ways we would not be having this link, because those kids certainly do not know a better way of learning. arentng of the cool clm and collective lets all sit down and have a hug isnt working in those cases? What about a short sharp shock! to say No that is not acceptable - and Im, not advocating a fist in the solar plexus but a smack.

Here here!

Yep too true I'm not offering up my gilries for a spot of her kind of training! Maybe in the right hands someone could show her the ropes of how to train a dog but I wouldn't be letting her out of my sight near any animal for a long time. She needs to know WHY what she did was wrong and to undertand it too! Then maybe she could be taught the niceties of dog training.
Aileen

> i cant see anyone in the neighbourhood being happy to let her use thier dog to be 'educated'

She doesn't have to have unsupervised access to animals to learn more appropriate behaviour.  Mastifflover came up with an excellent example of working with animals under supervision but learning appropriate ways of dealing with the world and its frustrations does not have to be animal related at all.  It may be the adults around her need to learn more appropriate behaviours or to be more concious of the other influences in her life, other adults, bullies etc.

why are there no criminal proceedings?? and failing that why no civil action?

> How can anyone condone this action?

Who has condoned it?

> Even though the person filming didn't stop it, at least they have the evidence so that girl(i hope) will be prosecuted against. If the said person who was filming had stopped filming and stopped this girl and then reported it you may not have the evidence, not saying its right either.
>

thats what i think, its possible they felt that stopping it entirely was the better option

> Sorry to say that I have watched the video.  However much anyone feels sorry for the girl - I wouldn't be volunteering my dogs to be used in helping her overcome her problems.  I couldn't have her near them - even supervised. 

Me neither and I wouldn't have wanted her anywhere near my my son when he went to riding for the disabled with his special school either as he was more vulnerable than the poor dog!

> I actually dont know what i would do if i found out a child/relative/friend of mine could do that. Doesnt bear thinking about.
>

insist on some serious therapy?

> Hahaha, parents said she will 'be grunded' gee whizz, whats that going to do when 'a 12 year old child' is capable of inflicting such pain and cruelty??!!
>

i know, ridiculous isn't it? grounding is a nuisance not a real punnishment

I certainly wouldn't advocate this child be allowed anywhere near anyone that was vulnerable - whether a young child, disabled person of any age or an elderly person- nor would I let her near animals of any sort, even under supervision. 

Why would anyone think it is acceptable to use a person or animal experimentally to turn around someone who, for whatever reason, has shown abnormal lack of emotion and self control (at best)?

I think she needs at the very least psychiatric examination and perhaps shown videos of the wonderful joy and assistance that so many animals, but particularly dogs bring to the lives of their owners.  Guide dogs, hearing dogs, assistance dogs, sniffer dogs, PAT dogs, search and rescue dogs etc - let her learn about compassion, kind training methods, companionship and mutual reward from a TV screen - but not up close and personal.

Then show her the stark realities of the video of HER interaction with that poor dog too - IMO a better and safer way of communicating the cruelty of her actions to her without risking anyone/thing else in the process.

Teri

> I think it would be better for her to help out at a Riding for Disabled Stable, or some other voluntary sector, either looking after disabled kids her own age.  I'm a bit once-bitten-twice-shy so would keep her away from smaller animals.  She still needs punishment and discipline of some form though - she deliberately inflicted pain and suffering on an innocent.  It's got nothing to do with being a stroppy teenager and hormones, nothing at all, something went wrong in this kids life to cause that cruel streak, perhaps she was overindulged by her parents, who knows.  And perhaps her parents are blinkered when it comes to their daughter, who knows.

i quite agree. in which case why not apply an punishment that is often given to adults and make her do community service? community service is often found to be far more effective as not only punnishment (time restrictions) but for re-education of offenders. (i;d say a fine to but thats just me)

studies have shown that if you are seperated from the community in which you have offended (by imprisonment) you become more likely to offend again for various reasons (such as exposure to more hardened criminals who give you ideas, family breakdown, tendancy to find gainful employment being harder etc) but prinicipally because your community has hurt you back. if however an offender is involved in that community, learns ways in which they can contribute and genuinely makes some form of ammends then they are far less likely to offend in future. in one way you gain skills and knowledge in another you become engaged with your community and you don't hurt what you care about.

i don;t think anyone would advocate throwing her in at the deep end looking after any vulnerable person or animal or indeed even vegetable or mineral... clearly she is 'not right' and needs some heavy work from a mental health proffessional but its something to work towards and it could help in the long run.

i think the psych assesment and your suggestion about videos would be a good way to begin till shes considered suitably stable in herself to advance.

Allaboutme said:-
would just like to add that the person filming was a neighbour who had witnessed the girl being cruel to the dog BEFORE on a few occasions and had decided to film an attack in the hope of proof and prosecution

Why on earth did that person not stop in to stop such horrendous behaviour if s/he had seen it before?   If the girl knew that she had been observed acting in such a cruel way and not been stopped, she could think it acceptable behaviour.

I do not for one moment condone what she has done - but an adult had the chance to tell her it was wrong, it was cruel and inhuman and did not.   That person should be examining her/his conscience too, imo.

Margot 

Of course nobody would think to throw her in at the deep end - with RDA you do not generally go near the children, I was solely involved with the horses.  The reason I suggested RDA was that, if she cannot relate to a dog or small animal, she may actually relate better to another child :-)  I'm an animal person, not a people person, we're all different.  Also with the horses, especially RDA ones, they don't take any nonsense, they know the difference between one of their patients and a kid taking the mickey ;-)  I've probably still got the hoof-prints to prove it.  Either way, thank the Lord for the person who filmed it, now at last it has been stopped, hopefully for good.  It's a very emotive and difficult situation.

Not sure how you can make this point in the same post as suggesting a child should have a "clip round the ear" though.  Parents, teachers, policemen should all be demonstrating to children that there are far better ways of teaching good behaviour. 

Sorry Isabel had to collect the boys!

Ok we are going to have completely different opinions here tin hat going on! :-D  As someone who to date has never needed to give my boys a clip around the ear, I certainly am not against in some reactive instances it happening. I'll tell you why, many animals growl and nip at their young when misbehaving, just because we are more intellegent doesn't make us less instinctive to act on a response, the 'no smack ever" brigade try their best to make us believe we are doing wrong in giving our children the odd smack but millions of mothers still do - they are just very quiet that they did because they are made to feel it is wrong.

If I caught my boy doing what that girl did, I think an instinctual response would have made me give him a clip along with a rollocking, because we are emotive not passive creatures by nature, if something my son did stirred up my emotions so much I think instinct  and yes, I believe it to be instinct we like to think we are different to animals but were not,  would take over.

I'd really like to see a study that shows because a big song and dance is made over a little smack here and there that child abuse has decreased that those who beat and abuse their children's numbers have gone down, because I personally don't think they have, I actually believe they have risen. I think there is more violence around today than ever.

I also believe that young children are more cheeky and that adolescents have less respect for authority figures I think 'normal' parents (as opposed to abusers) did and do a great job raising their children and I think the day the policeman was no longer aloud to clip a lippy youngster around the ear have all fallen flat on the do gooders brigade as youngsters think nothing of cheeking back a policeman today and they would probably think nothing of hitting a police officer, infact they don't!

So, in conclusion, if she were my daughter she'd have got a 'clip' and I'm not ashamed to say that at all.

Actually, I'm just turning the sofa over too, can you try to throw buns with chocolate chips in. :-)

Carrington, I think you are probably right in that a little smack here and there is not going to turn the average well adjusted child into a delinquent, well it didn't me for a start :-), and I would certainly not clap in irons any parents that, in the heat of the moment resorts to it but I do think the principle of corporal punishment as a method of rearing children has to be condemned to the scrap heap of history.  This child, if nothing else, shows that some children have great difficulty is working out, even if only temporarily, what is right and wrong regarding how we deal with our frustrations.  How on earth can it benefit them to receive physical punishment, deliberately and as a policy?  Even more so when the punishment is for using force!

12 years old is young and children of that age have many more years of learning before they become an adult. Just because she is not going to have a puppy doesn't mean she should be written off. She does need some punishment but she also needs to understand what is the right way of teaching a dog and that can only happen by educating her as she obviously thought it was the right way to do it.

I am currently 'educating' some new puppy owners as they are in the 'old school' of smacking and rubbing the nose on the wee or poo as that is the only way they will learn mindset and they are adults ! People will only learn from watching other behaviours and so to change that way if it is wrong means to show them what is the right way. If she isn't going to be prosecuted then her parents have a duty to make sure she gets that education. There are plenty of ways of doing this and I for one would quite happily sponsor her and show her the way of training and treating animals.

it has been proven that animal cruelty in young children can lead to terrible crimes later in life

havent had time to read whole thread and couldnt bring myself to watch the film but have to agree with above. most serial killers/torturors/rapists are found to have tortured animals when young. starting with pulling wings off butterflies and continuing to sadism and so on. they are usually what we would class as 'sick' individuals and this girl sounds like she is well on the way

> Of course nobody would think to throw her in at the deep end -

i was answering teris point there.

i think your suggestion was a very good one

> if however an offender is involved in that community, learns ways in which they can contribute and genuinely makes some form of ammends then they are far less likely to offend in future.

Thats one of the reasons I think the supervised involvement with animals could be very beneficial. I feel she could learn so much from good mentors and have the opportunity to rebuild real empathy with animals.  I can't see how it would put them in any danger at all as long as she was fully supervised. 

>> Thats one of the reasons I think the supervised involvement with animals could be very beneficial. I feel she could learn so much from good mentors and have the opportunity to rebuild real empathy with animals.  I can't see how it would put them in any danger at all as long as she was fully supervised. 

exactly.

> they are usually what we would class as 'sick' individuals and this girl sounds like she is well on the way

I think psychiatric appraisals are rather more involved than this ;-)

Why didnt the person who was filming stop the girl from doing it.
The RSPCA should do something about this.
As shes 12 years old she knows right from wrong surely?

As shes 12 years old she knows right from wrong surely Not if it is learnt behaviour she has witnessed in her life.

> it's funny, I can watch animals being slaughtered but I can't watch deliberate cruelty

I'm the same.

I just don't understand what would make a 12 year old behave like that? It's despicable!

> but what good is a witch hunt in this case.

Possibly the most sensible thing I've read on the entire thread.

I think this girl needs help cause like said in the article soon will be babysitting and could just imagine the torture she would prob do on lil kids....

Also makes you wonder if anything goes on at home- or is she just a mean child- what she gonna be like when grown- she def needs help and that is what the SPCA should be doing as well as charging her...

Good thing her parents are not getting her a puppy and I think they should prob rehome their cat as well- who knows what kinda torture the family pet has already gone through....Horrible horrible :-(

Well, I've just 'punished' bad behaviour.  Witnessed by myself and my husband just now whilst out walking our two.
A young lady with a small jack russell type and Maltese decided she wasn't liking the way her dogs were behaving and so thought it was sensible to yank and yank and yank on the lead of the jack russell until it was crouching and cowering.
I shouted very loudly (rather too fishwife like for my husband!) "OI", but as she was in the distance, perhaps 50 feet in front of us, she just turned and looked and walked away.
Anyway, we had finished our walk and so carried on home and there was the same young lady about 20 feet in front of us.
Her two dogs saw our two (who I'm pleased to say for Staffords being yapped and screeched at behaved impecibly!) and started yapping and screeching, she couldn't control them and so decided to start the yanking and then hit the dog with the extendable lead.
So as we turned into our close, I pointed at her (she was turned looking at me as her dogs were facing us) and said 'if I EVER see you doing that to those dogs again, you WILL be reported immediately to the RSPCA, please try another form of training your dogs to behave properly'.
I think considering how shaky I was (anger? adrenalin?) I was quite polite really.. perhaps too polite?  I don't know.
But I was rather pleased that I'd made a point of saying something.  Poor doggies.

> who knows what kinda torture the family pet has already gone through

if i were the parents i'd have been off to the vet by now for a check up...

good for you

So so very sad to watch, heart breaking that poor dog ;o(