>>>Your standard retort of 'ANY breed of dog.......... blah blah blah' is exactly to be expected from one so defensive. It's exactly that stance I am talking about. You ignore the potential of this breed for harm. <<<<

very well written... blah blah blah???? lol
I am not defensive - I am a REALIST
Can you tell me how many bullbreeds you have actually met and in what circumstances?

Are you telling me that EVERY breed does not have the potential to harm or kill-
if so you are seriously deluding yourself
and it is people such as you who choose to ignore that it is the OWNERS at fault for a dogs misbehaviour
and it is the likes of yourself who will be the downfall of all dogs

Exactly Mastifflover, the poor wee baby was so small that he didn't stand a chance - not with any size, shape or breed of dog.  It's so very very tragic for everyone concerned, not just the family but also the Police and Paramedics at the scene who had to witness it.

> It's so very very tragic for everyone concerned, not just the family but also the Police and Paramedics at the scene who had to witness it.

I can't imagine how all of those involved must be feeling. What about the neighbour who tried to give baby the kiss of life, trying desperately to revive the poor little mite...
My heart goes out to the family and those involved, also the neighbours, it seems to have (understandably) shaken the whole community. It seems, from what I've read, that neighbours are shocked at the dogs as they were always so friendly.....
Such a horrible, horrible thing. I can't imagine how the family carries on from here, how do you come to terms with somehting like this? Awful.

Sorry, I have to disagree with the Yorkies comment...also, if you knew the breed well, which is what you are saying others should do before they even own a dog...you would know there is no such thing as a mini/miniature/teacup or any other size of Yorkies! I've got 4 and the last thing they are is 'snappy'!!! To be honest I'm offended by that! Well bred, socialised Yorkies are NOT snappy!

Unfortunately, as well as the bull breeds, terrier types will usually react to a childs cry, especailly if it sounds like a rat or rodent in distress and ready to be pounced on!

Who knows how any animal - cat, dog or other - will react to children/babies. I dont think breed comes into it really
They might be having a bad day, or simply have had enough. Animals dont understand about walking away from the source of the problem, taking a deep breath and counting to 5. I'd like to think my dog would be fine but who knows, a disruption in the routine and peace, the lack of attention on him etc etc could all push him over the edge and one day he may snap and show a side i'd never seen before.

You really are unbelievable, putting the World of Dogs suffering a blow against the death of a child! Hang your head in shame!

what have i said to offend u newfldreams, your message has come on to my post and i dont know why?

Who was that aimed at Newfie?

Hi lel

> Are you telling me that EVERY breed does not have the potential to harm or kill

I certainly wouldn't but as you're a realist you will appreciate that all is not quite the same in the canine kingdom anymore than it is in the animal one at large.  Some breeds have a greater potential than others - that's a simple fact based on the greater the size and substance of an animal, the more likely the damage to be serious and, tragically, fatal.  Terriers are terriers too so no matter whether a JR, Border or Staff they have a different mindset when it comes to being 'game' than say a Lab or Collie.

The difference in the perception of SBTs, Am Staffs and their many crosses are that these type of breeds, among others, have immensely powerful jaws - they have large wide heads much of which (pro rata) is taken up with wide split mouths and particularly strong muscular jaws.  If they bite the bite covers a larger area, the strength behind their grip is greater than longer more narrow muzzled breeds because of the strength of the muscle structure and added to that the tenacity for which they were bred ensures they hold and worry or tear at the area bitten in a quite different way to many other dogs which may cause multiple bites but none necessarily so deep or covering as much area compared to a bull breed.

The reasons above are the ones which, IMO, make such breeds more dangerous if they bite/attack, whether another dog or a person.  The absolute saturation of poorly bred SBTs (some crossed doubtless so many times in a few generations that only the 'jaw line' is evident) has meant that a great many people have come across this 'breed' in undesirable hands.  Not necessarily the 'yob culture' which (sadly) I think most would agree is particularly attracted to the SBT et al, but ordinary family dogs which are otherwise good natured but sometimes not as well controlled as they ought to be and accidents occur.  A scrap between a GSD and a GR for example is likely to be all sound and slobber.  A scrap between practically anything and a bull breed is likely to result in puncture wounds - that's what they were bred for and their anatomy ensures should they decide to 'go in' they have the physical power behind them and strength of will to come out on top.

regards, Teri

Honeybee I  shut Whistler and Jake away from my great nieces mainly for their safety as well the girls have a lovely staffdie at home and can be rough with my cocker. Ambur painted Jakes white face with marker pen in my office once and it tooks weeks for it to wear off he just sat there.
I dont ever, ever leave a baby with a dog.

It appears BOTH dogs inflicted bites
Plus note the non bullbreeds involved in another attack at the bottom of the report

Jaden Mack's parents warn of dangers of dogs near children
Feb 10 2009

THE devastated family of baby Jaden Mack yesterday urged others to be aware of the dangers of dogs being around small children.

Three-month-old Jaden was mauled to death by his grandmother's Staffordshire bull terrier and Jack Russell.

His grandmother Denise Wilson was babysitting the youngster while his parents, Alexandra, 30, and Christopher, 31, who married a year ago, enjoyed a night out.

Yesterday, the family issued a statement through Gwent Police.

They said: "We would like to stress to all families with young children and pet dogs that, no matter how much trust you have in your dog, something like this is always possible.

"We never thought it could happen to us, but we are now grieving for the loss of our 'little man' who will always be in our hearts and loved very much by all of his family and friends."

Saturday's tragedy in Ystrad Mynach, near Caerphilly, sparked calls from senior Welsh MPs for a review of the Dangerous Dogs Act which was passed 18 years ago in a bid to stop attacks by dogs on children.

But a spokeswoman for the Dogs' Trust said last night: "People tend to look at the legislation at times like these, but what we want to get across is the importance of education.

"You can change the law, but it isn't going to change the situation. There will still be rare occasions where dogs do hurt people."

Jaden's death was even more unusual because he was not attacked by breeds associated with previous tragedies, such as Rottweilers.

The RSPCA has also advised dog owners not to leave pets near children.

A spokesman said last night: "While we cannot comment on this specific case, our thoughts are with the family who are coming to terms with this tragic event.

"We would also urge all dog owners to ensure their animals are supervised at all times, especially when children are kept in the same environment.

"The RSPCA does not recommend anyone leaving a young child alone with a dog, regardless of its size or whether it is a family pet or not."

Jaden was staying at Mrs Wilson's home, in Commercial Street, on Friday night when Jack Russell Lucy and Staffordshire bull terrier Tyson launched their attack after midnight on Saturday.

Horrified Mrs Wilson found the child before running into the street crying: "The baby's dead, he's dead!"

Police and paramedics arrived at her home and Jaden was taken by ambulance to Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr Tydfil where doctors declared him dead.

A Home Office pathologist, who carried out a post-mortem examination at the University Hospital of Wales, Cardiff, confirmed Jaden died from injuries inflicted by the two dogs, which have now been put down.

In a further warning of the dangers posed by dogs to children, six people, including a six-year-old and 15-year-old boy, were hurt yesterday when two German Shepherd dogs went on the rampage in Bristol.

When my son was young (he is 23 now) the news was of a Jack Russell that killed a baby, you should see them with rats they are fearless.

> It appears BOTH dogs inflicted bites

I'm not aware of anyone disputing that - from the outset many of us have encouraged that speculation be avoided as to blame.  The same people have also tried to encourage that this horrendous tragedy be looked at from a human and humane perspective and not harping on about 'another' blow to the SBT fraternity.

>Plus note the non bullbreeds involved in another attack at the bottom of the report

Again I don't think anyone has disputed or implied that only bull breeds or terriers of any type for that matter have caused injury or even fatally attacked a human.  Is this a case of 'more wrongs uncovered' will somehow equal one right for the (thankfully few) outraged SBT fans?

The facts are that (1) a baby was killed by one or possibly two dogs;  (2) the dogs in question were an SBT and a JR.  Argue what you will but that wont change.

Personally I hope it makes everyone even remotely considering an SBT put off their plans for a few years and then perhaps if demand dries up supply will be limited to being produced by the most ethical, knowledgeable and responsible breeders who ensure their pups only go to the most ethical, knowledgeable and responsible owners.

Over and above that I sincerely wish this thread had remained as opened - one in shock and sympathy for the heinous events and had not turned into a 'save the breed reputation' campaign

> you should see them with rats they are fearless

terriers are supposed to be fearless of the vermin they are bred to flush and kill. 

IMO we should all remember and also continually educate on what a breed's original purpose was.  If that was more commonly thought of among the general public perhaps breeds which are more appropriate to a family environment would be the ones sought first as family pets rather than chosen for being macho, cute but feisty, 'unusual' etc.

come on everyone stop the bickering.please dont forget this is a forum and everyones entitled to their say.a baby has lost its life through circumstances we dont know yet exept he was mauled by a sbt and jrt.and all ive been trying to say through this thread is that all dogs are capable of biting ,some just dont stop at biting as this case shows,and wether your dog is small or giant they should never be 100%  trusted to be left alone with children.lets show the baby and the family our sympathy as they have to go through life with this tragedy o their minds,and show the public how dog owners feel when a tragedy like this happens.  ps and have to agree with Terri careful breed selection when choosing a family pet.

I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to post that reply to me diggersdad, particularly in view of some of your own comments previously.

I dont think dog ataacks on people/babies are more common from staffies/bull breeds than other breeds..the only reason you are hearing of it is because the baby tragically died- so it obviously makes it more serious and therefore more interest to the media. I think people with bull breeds are too quick to jump to their defence-you dont see the jack russell owners doing the same-because every dog is different and no-one is accusing bull breeds or jack russells of anything-it is just being reported because at the end of the day these two individual dogs killed a baby. I heard about the gsds yesterday and even though they are my breed i am not going to jump to their defence because at the end of the day these two individual dogs have bitten numerous people- just because the breed has been mentioned in the media. the gsd is more than capable of doing serious harm if in the wrong hands/situation. some breeds have more bad press coverage over them(such as bull breeds/30 yrs ago it was gsds)because the attacks they are involved in, inflict more harm on the person than say, a chihuahua- purely because of the strength and power behind them.

> come on everyone stop the bickering

I see that you are fairly new to this forum Diggersdad but I can assure you this is not bickering...rather debate.

Thrashing out opinions in print is an excellent way for increasing one's knowledge, facing facts that we either didn't know or accept and perhaps opening our minds to other folks points of view.

We all have much to learn - sometimes realising that we are out of step with others is a valuable stage in personal growth.

well this incident wont stop me leaving my dogs alone with my son as i leave the room etc

yer only been using forum for a few days.

> well this incident wont stop me leaving my dogs alone with my son as i leave the room

I have no young relatives but should there be in the future or, as currently, only very occasionally any friends' children visiting, I certainly would not share that view.   No matter how well trained, used to children, unspookable and generally laid back a dog is any one could have an off day or react to an unusual circumstance.

What's hard about calling the dog(s) away with us if we need the loo, are cooking, hanging out laundry etc?  It's so easy and IMO so much safer all round.  Small children can and do intentionally hurt and frighten dogs (I'm not referring to babies here - more general) so it need not be the dog's fault were it to snap or bite but the outcome would certainly not be in the child's favour as far as injury is concerned and not in my favour were I to have to PTS one of my precious companions for reacting instinctively.

As a grandmother, who does babysit and dog owner I dont and will not trust my dogs 100% the children and dogs are taught mutual respect with adult supervision at all times.
The reporting of this tragedy has had nothing to do with breed bashing and has infact emphasised that supervision and sensible safety measures are the key to avoiding such incidents. The parents and grandparents are obviously heartbroken and are going to live with the what ifs and if onlys for the rest of their days.
The police are obviously investigating this incident as they have to but so far there seems to be no evidence to suggest that they have been irresponsible dog owners previously. Only that they were unaware of the potential for their animals instincts to be triggered and for them to react in such a tragic way.

God Bless {{{{{Baby}}}}}

This was a three month old baby and it does not matter which breed of dog attacked - ANY breed or mix of any size is capable of causing fatal injuries. 

This was a three month old baby and it does not matter which breed of dog attacked - ANY breed or mix of any size is capable of causing fatal injuries. 

Yes and any idiot in charge of them :-(

http://news.aol.co.uk/rampaging-dogs-attack-six-people/article/20090209120716729786214

I agree the majority of incidents involving any breed of dog are due to handler error etc. but in the case of the gsds running loose and attacking people....i have two gsds and if they escaped for some reason into a heavily populated area the only damage they would do is likely to involve tongues and faces!! I dont know what the circumstances are with how these dogs came to be loose but one has to wonder why two dogs with the owner nearby (news report says he ushered people into shop)would actively seek out and try to bite people for no apparent reason...unless their actions have been mis-interpretated?(I am in no way 'sticking up' for these dogs or their owner)

not you hun xx it was in reply to the post I replied to! obviously someone is too dim to realise that!

Qwerty, Well, I pray to God nothing happens to your child/children...do you refuse to acknowledge the fact that an attack could happen in any circumstances??

Sigh-Grand mother fell asleep with child on pillow on the dining/living room table

Human error-they will never know if the baby rolled off the table on to the dogs, the baby was crying etc etc etc Why wasn't the baby in a cot in a bedroom ? or next to the Grandmother Two dogs & the child all died needlessly :-(

RIP poor baby :-(

So so sad and tragic and avoidable.

> Human error-they will never know if the baby rolled off the table on to the dogs, the baby was crying etc etc etc

Precisely - but with dogs of the size of the two breeds involved, it seems unlikely that something the height of a dining table would have been considered as the baby being within their reach.  Alas, yes, Gran is reported to have 'dropped off to sleep' - perhaps nothing more than a half awake/asleep cat nap - she'll be torturing herself to the end of her days over this. 

God help her and Jaden's parents, plus of course all those involved in trying to save him.  RIP little lad.

The child died needlessly and brutally - the dogs were humanely pts as a consequence of their actions.

> God help her and Jaden's parents, plus of course all those involved in trying to save him. RIP little lad

The horror of this is so strong you can almost touch it, I feel for the family especially the grand-mother, it will haunt her for the rest of her life.

I would hope that if there is any good to come from this it would be that people would think very carefully about the type of dogs they have and where they get them from and also to be aware that dogs, any dogs should not have free un-supervised access to small children.

RIP Little One
x

>any dogs should not have free un-supervised access to small children.

There's a lot to be said for not allowing dogs access to any bedrooms in a house with children. This poor child was downstairs - if he'd been upstairs and the dogs downstairs then he'd have been safe, even when everyone else in the house was fast asleep.

Exactly my point JG. From a Health & Safety point of view, without the dogs, leaving a baby on a pillow on a table & not in a cot/moses basket etc etc is hardly the best option

> There's a lot to be said for not allowing dogs access to any bedrooms in a house with children

Very true - of course not everyone has a two storey home - there are a great many flat and bungalow dwellers in the population.  Ideally all doors, certainly bedroom ones, should have knob handles which require to be turned so that they cannot inadvertently be pushed open by a family pet or a lever handle pushed down.

Out of this dreadful tragedy let's hope and pray that lessons have been learnt by other regular pet owning families that although, thankfully, rare such savage events do occur.

To everyone, keep all children safe and your pets too and please God little Jaden will be the last angel to be taken in these horrific circumstances :(

>of course not everyone has a two storey home - there are a great many flat and bungalow dwellers in the population.

Absolutely - but I do feel there should be some areas within a home that are dog-free zones.

> without the dogs, leaving a baby on a pillow on a table & not in a cot/moses basket etc etc is hardly the best option

So true.

Hi MM,

> leaving a baby on a pillow on a table & not in a cot/moses basket etc etc is hardly the best option

a cot, perhaps, providing the high sides were fully up would almost certainly have been the best option however perhaps the family did not have a second cot for when this darling boy stayed with his grandparent.

A moses basket on a stand for eg would not IMO have afforded any form of protection.

> there are a great many flat and bungalow dwellers in the population

This is when baby gates can be such a handy piece of kit, my children have long since flown the nest but I still have a baby gate at the bottom of the stairs so at least upstairs is a dog free zone.

the problem is, that everyone can have a lapse of judgement, but how many of these stories do we hear a year. too many. its that momentary lapse of judgement that will stay on them for years. i feel its the same when you drive down the road and see children in cars playing around not strapped in. parents need to take a step back from there frantic lives and see these small things as actually major problems that could potentially kill a child.

My house is all on one level and our dogs have access all areas except my daughter's bedroom - although they're occasionally 'invited' in :)  When she was younger, we got our first family dog when she was 7, they were not allowed in her bedroom and the bedroom doors all have knob handles so that when I'm not looking or we're not at home they can't go in there.

> parents need to take a step back from there frantic lives and see these small things as actually major problems that could potentially kill a child.

Very true mahonc.

> The horror of this is so strong you can almost touch it

Well put.

We see threads pop up every now & then where somebody posts a warning of a horror a story where sombody has been attacked/mugged while getting into thier car etc. so be carefull. The general replys are that we shouldn't live in constant fear of everything - that's no way to live.
I think the horrific death of little Jaden goes to show that we should be paying more attention to the 'what-ifs' but it's a big thing to grasp hold of - beleiving that your loving, gentle, precious little dogs will kill your own flesh & blood if they have the chance.
I don't think the grandmother was stupid or neglectfull, I think she was only guilty of doing what a lot of us do - trusting our judgments of our own dogs. Her judment didn't cause a problem before when she did exactly the same thing with Jaden, this time it did.

I wish the family strength to carry on.
RIP little Jaden

I am going to be controversial here and say I think she was insane placing a baby on a table where dogs had access and then falling asleep (if thats what she did) and I feel extremely sorry for the baby AND the dogs losing their lives over her stupidity. You have to take precautions with babies - and you have to PROTECT them as they are so vulnerable. The baby might only have murmured and it set the dogs off to investigate - and now the baby and the dogs are dead. Stupid, stupid behaviour - and if that makes me sound like a cow then so be it.

> A moses basket on a stand for eg would not IMO have afforded any form of protection.

If the baby had been in another room or next to the Grandmother it would have been & it would have prevented the baby from falling off the table(if that is what happened) Are you suggesting that the pillow/moses basket bear the same risk of the child rolling off the table ?

Suggesting the family didn't have a second cot is no excuse-even if they were on benefits they would have had £500 grant for the babies stuff & there's usually a ready supply of second hand cots etc in papers & on the internet. Also Freecycle etc etc

> Stupid, stupid behaviour - and if that makes me sound like a cow then so be it.

I'm one too then ;-)

> If the baby had been in another room

Agreed

> it would have prevented the baby from falling off the table(if that is what happened)

conjecture

>Are you suggesting that the pillow/moses basket bear the same risk of the child rolling off the table ?

more conjecture

> Suggesting the family didn't have a second cot is no excuse

thankfully you're not adjudicating here

Regardless of personal opinions on what may or may not have been the cause or how events could have better been prevented, IMO it is incredibly poor taste to keep harping on about this poor woman's possible errors and, worse still, the 'needless' death of the dogs.

I'm sure the grandmother will have more than enough 'if only' moments tearing at her conscience forever without having to bear the brunt of disgruntled dog owners harping on about her level of responsibility.

There but for the grace of God go any of us - as far as I'm concerned anyway.

>The baby might only have murmured and it set the dogs off to investigate - and now the baby and the dogs are dead.

It's still an extreme reaction by the dogs to whatever the baby did. I wonder if they'd been encouraged to bite hard on squeaky toys, and mistook the baby's cries for a new squeaky toy?

Tragic.

I agree, but you know, there comes a time when folk need to start taking responsibility for their actions. Its not an isolated case, it happens far too often, and it gives dogs as a whole a terrible bad name. I do try to be sympathetic, but these cases are SO high profile - how can folk still take such risks?

I dunno, remember I had to have a behaviourist in with Willis when Archie was born? Archie made Willis so anxious that I absolutely couldn't even take him in the kitchen with me. He was very, very upset about the whole baby thing and our house had to be dog proofed to the max. He just couldn't bear the noise, the smell, nothing. He wasn't aggressive but he was very nervous and inquisitive.

> I do try to be sympathetic, but these cases are SO high profile - how can folk still take such risks?

I can't understand it either Carla but if you read further up the thread you'll find at least one poster saying they would still feel confident in leaving a child alone with their dogs because they know their dogs to be safe ....

To me it beggars belief that anyone could feel that way at any time never mind in the midst of such a high profile horror story - some people think differently to you and I and to most who've contributed here.  But what hope is there if that attitude prevails among people who, admittedly only IMO, should know better