On MSN this afternoon, three and half month old, just as we have a thread running at the moment about best dogs to be have with children. Poor little mite RIP :(

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.aspx?cp-documentid=13844516

Very sad, but does make you wonder again how something like this could happen to a 3 month old.  I'm sure the full story will come out soon.

RIP.

This is in reply to Nickyvangelis...the other thread has been locked.

Unfortunatly Nickyvangelis, too many unscrupulous people breed poor type, agressive, and cross bred staff's. Joe Public just do not get to see the proper Staffy temprament very often portrayed in the news..because it is not newsworthy, much too nice for that! It seems just the true breed gaurdians know the full score on the lovability of a well bred well socialised Staff.
It is unfortunatly a breed that appeals to the "Thug" ellement in society and they breed without care or caution so a huge amount of untrustworthy Staffy "Types" inhabit our streets. I suppose by pure weight of numbers bred they will feature more in the news as there are just more of them badly bred than any other breed and they live all to often with those who try to "make them hard" then they have a litter...and so it goes on untill one gets into a situation like this and once again the breed is done no favours.I suppose one way of looking at is is that if they put people who do not know the true nature of a Staf of buying one then maybe the demand will dry up and less will be bred for the cash.
Sorry to read of this poor baby, a life lost too soon and for no good reason.
Aileen

Very true

Its also worth bearing in mind that ANY breed of dog could attack a child if its not brought up correctly and not supervised so I do hope we do not see another *staffords are devil dogs campaign* yet again the media

and may this little innocent rest in peace xxxx

It's intresting to see this is another attack thats happend when round grandparents?

Tragic story from all perspectives. 

The press are always getting breeds mixed up.  Most dogs identified as Staffies are mixes of some kind.  Jack Russells are highly variable and so are their temperaments.    

Not that any of this matters though in light of the child's death.

lel, it's almost inevitable I think.  Tabloids will be all over it yet again.

Will be interesting to see if any HUMAN (as I kept banging on about after the last tragedy) will be held at least partly responsible.
Another poor poor youngster lost.  RIP little baby X

funnily enough the beeb is rather against staffies..as opposed to itv which recently ran a news prgramme shwing staffies as the victims rather than aggressors.
I would presume the human carers of this baby were highly irresponsible.,of course if a member of a cuddly breed had turned bad and killed the child it would be such flashy news...
no doubt yet more staffies will find their way to the needle because of this hysterical story..just like numbers of rotties being dumped a few months back when one allegedy killed his owner in the street..only to find out the owner died of a heart attack and the poor rottie was merely trying to revive him..
ruth

I can't see anything hysterical about the BBC news report   They also make the point that the circumstances are not known yet.  They have not presumed that the human carers are highly irresponsible.

> I would presume the human carers of this baby were highly irresponsible.,of course if a member of a cuddly breed had turned bad and killed the child it would be such flashy news...
>

I can't believe that comment .....

The tragedy here is that a baby was KILLED - a beautiful little angel that was innocent had his life taken from him in horrific circumstances.  IMO that's what matters here and please God he suffered only briefly and that all those involved can somehow cope with nightmares that may never truly leave them  :(

This is a tragedy of proportions that please God none of us will ever experience.
RIP Jaden, Teri x

I quite agree with most of what the police spokesman has said

Chief Inspector Jim Baker of Gwent Police said: "This is a tragic incident for the family and the community.

"Gwent Police Family Liaison Officers are currently supporting and assisting the family through this difficult time. The family wish to be left alone to grieve."

He added: "Although the exact circumstances of the baby's death are yet to be established, we would like to reiterate the advice given to dog owners that dogs should never be left unsupervised with young children at any time."

If the dogs attacked the child, where was the Grandmother & how did the dogs get access to the baby ? There must have been human error involved IMHO it would be negligence. The dogs have been put down & so have paid the ultimate price for a human mistake

> The dogs have been put down & so have paid the ultimate price for a human mistake

The baby boy paid the ultimate price - for whatever, if any, mistake :(  The only fact here that I believe cannot be disputed is that the only TRULY innocent party was a three month old baby :(

We don't know the circumstances and I 100% agree that no dog of any breed, size, age or apparent soundness of character should EVER be left alone with a child but at this moment in time we don't know what happened.  The grandmother may have fallen over one of the dogs with the child in her arms for example - who are we to judge?

> The tragedy here is that a baby was KILLED - a beautiful little angel that was innocent had his life taken from him in horrific circumstances.  IMO that's what matters here and please God he suffered only briefly and that all those involved can somehow cope with nightmares that may never truly leave them  :-(
>

Absolutely

I think the point being made by some on here is not to take away from the complete tragedy that has occurred, and of course the death of any child let alone a youngster is one of the worst things that can happen to mankind.  The additional point being raised is that, once again, staffies are being blamed for the attack which seems to be the case everywhere and as someone above said, there is a danger that 'proper' staffies are being done over by these mix breed lookalikes which may well be aggressive.  As someone else said who was making the very correct point that the only true victim is the child, we don't know the circumstances, so it is unfair of the BBC to jump on the 'dangerous dogs' bandwagon and, quelle surprise, SBTs are being mentioned.  How do they know if it was a bona fide SBT and JR?  Have they seen their paperwork? I somehow doubt it.  The point is that the BBC, right in the fact that they should report this tragedy, should not sensationalize the story and point all blame at the dogs when we don't know if there was human error, if indeed the dogs did turn bad, and if they were in fact true SBTs and JRs or if they were some cross breed type which as someone above said are on the streets bred by irresponsible cash wanting people.

As KC registered breeders of SBTs we find that despite the bad publicity we still have demand, because people want a true Staffy, true to it's nature and it's looks, not some back street H57 where they don't know the temperament nor conditions of the dog.  We are very select in who we sell to and have turned people down in the past as they could not prove they had the means to care for a dog and some even said 'well we want to breed it a few times to make some money'.  I'm not against people making money from breeding, but the first aim of breeding dogs is to make the breed better, money often gets swallowed up in vets, registration, proper care and attention for the dam and puppies, and seldom will you be left with lots of money like these people think. 

RIP to the baby boy, our thoughts are with the family, who despite who is at fault, have lost a grandchild and I would imagine dearly loved family pets all in a few hours.

Unfortunately as often happens in the media the facts are already being distorted-
One report ive read says the neighbours were alerted by screaming and went to help and then the door opened the two dogs ran out of the front door when opened so she took them back in, yet another says the neighbours had to drag the dogs off the baby.....

> The point is that the BBC, right in the fact that they should report this tragedy, should not sensationalize the story and point all blame at the dogs when we don't know if there was human error

Have you read the BBC report?

It doesn't appear to me the BBC report was read by some as printed - certainly IMO there was no 'sensationalizing' of the story ......

> We don't know the circumstances and I 100% agree that no dog of any breed, size, age or apparent soundness of character should EVER be left alone with a child but at this moment in time we don't know what happened.

> The baby boy paid the ultimate price

See above, excellent points.

If it has teeth it can do damage!!

I remember reading a few years back of a newborn being killed by a Yorkie.

>How do they know if it was a bona fide SBT and JR?  Have they seen their paperwork?

JRs aren't a recognised breed and therefore can't have 'paperwork'. But everyone knows what is meant by the name. The same, rightly or wrongly, goes for SBTs.

>because people want a true Staffy, true to it's nature and it's looks, not some back street H57 where they don't know the temperament nor conditions of the dog.

In 'real life' many people don't give two hoots about paperwork unless they're interested in showing. If they just want a pet who they might be able to make a few bob from if they have a litter or two, that's fine by them. There are more staffy crosses about than you can shake a stick at.

Poor little mite :(

That poor family.. It just goes to show that no dog, what ever breed or flavour can ever be 100% trusted. When my children were little and now if any little children are at my home, if I leave the room so do the dogs. It takes a split second for something to happen.

> How do they know if it was a bona fide SBT and JR? Have they seen their paperwork? I somehow doubt it.    

How come the mauling or death of a child by a dog always brings out the defence of the breed brigade?
Who gives a monkeys chuff whether they had paperwork or not? Who gives a damn as to whether it came from a KC registered breeder that wants to breed true to type.?
Does paperwork mean that your dog will never turn of a child? I don't think so.

No matter how well bred or badly bred, no matter how well socialised or not a dog is a dog and should never be left alone with a very young child. We don't yet know the full facts of this tragic event, except that a child is dead and it could be anybodies child.

I don't believe that the BBC senationalised this news, they reported it as is their job, I saw no greater mention of the SBT than the JRT.

This is awful.
I remember my first baby, when he was about 3 months old I finally picked up the courage to let my mum baby-sit while I went out and I remember the relief I felt when I got home and he was sleeping, safe & sound. I can't even begin to imagine what the parents of this poor little mite are going through.....
The word 'tragic', just doesn't seem enough to cover it.
Rest in peace little one.

How come the mauling or death of a child by a dog always brings out the defence of the breed brigade?
  Thought the same.    Do people actually believe it is only poorly bred dogs without papers capible of doing such an act.    You don't have to look too far at shows to see some awfully behaved and not so nice dogs.

I am shocked at times at some of the comments when these awful awful things happen to kids.

RIP little mite and a prayer sent for the poor grandmother who will probably never get over this.

Jack Russells are highly variable and so are their temperaments.

Yes, people seem to forget a jack russel was part of it too. Who knows who started it?...Whilst I know any dog could be dangerous to a baby, the problem is that Staffies, or Rottweilers in France (very popular and having terribly bad press) are tremendously strong dogs and do a lot of damage with their poerful jaws. We might hear more about these breeds because when they attack, the result is very bad. We don't hear about spaniels, labradors or other breeds so much because they might not make it to media level? Just a thought.

tellingly the mum of this poor baby had named her dog 'tyson'. you are right.. the baby is the only truly innocent party and suffered for no reason...
but I have come accross many chav owned staffys and crosses called tyson and never yet a well managed one. and its chavs that give all breeds they favour a bad name,
I am sure there may well be a 'tyson' out there who is well behaved and loved by his family.. but why would anyone name a dog of any breed after a rapist has been boxer??  why not name the dog 'sutcliffe' or 'bellfield' or 'west'
just because the man is famous doesnt make him any less of a nasty bit of work..so why name a 'beloved family pet' after him? we will never know the full truth. but the mail for one has made a huge sensation out of it.. which helps no one. The humans concerned should be left in privacy and the dog breeds should be not mentioned again. unless there is a clause underneath which says 'these were individual dogs' and 'we are NOT suggesting all dgs of this breed attack and kill children'..less certain people get overwhelmed by hysteria and blame all for the 'crime' of one.
I dont want to be walking my dogs and get abuse, as I have done in the past from mindless idiots who think the presses predjudice against certain breeds gives anyone the right to abuse owners of that breed. I just hope this story will now be left in peace.for the sake of the family.. and all bull breeds and their owners who have nothing to do with this case

Again we are judging her without any knowledge what so ever.  The dog could just as easily have been named by a less mature member of the family or may have been a rescue that arrived with that name.  I appreciate what you are saying and it is a name I would not touch for the reasons you have stated but regarding this incident we simply do not know anything on which to judge the people involved.

beastieboo, that is the point, i want to be able to walk my staffies in peace and not get abuse hurled at me saying my dogs are dangerous when they are not, and it's news stories which are not presented with all the facts nor with disclaimers which cause said issue.  I get really aggravated when people say 'the breed brigade' and that I am not thinking about the kid involved in all of this, that is complete idiocy because the greatest tragedy is that a child has died.  The people who claim that because I am defending my staffies and the breed who then say I am interested in the wrong part of the story are talking rubbish because that is just not the point.  It goes without saying that this child dying is above and beyond a tragedy. I think that every single member of this forum would think that and that point doesn't need to be addressed further because any human being with any morals would know this is the most awful thing that could ever happen.  But this being a dog forum for people to use and discuss issues they will have with their dogs (and this kind of news story will affect SBT and JR owners again because they are repeated media targets, as were rotties and dobies) and news stories such as this don't help reponsible owners of these breeds.  Why they couldn't have published the story without just saying 'two dogs attacked the child' would then take the focus off the breeds and remind people that ALL dogs can be dangerous if left unattended.
Please don't anyone else say that I or others talking about the dogs are more interested in the breed than the death of the child because it is making me rather cross that people aren't allowed to have an opinion about dogs on a dog forum without getting lynched.  The issue is the media bang on about the facts that cause problems for other people and don't focus on the facts of the story which is that a young child tragically lost his life due to the oversight of his grandparents who will now be paying the ultimate price in having lost their pet and grandkid in a few hours.

>but the mail for one has made a huge sensation out of it.. which helps no one.

I have just read the Mail on line report and, pretty much like the BBC report, does not seem to be over sensationalising it to me. 

> Why they couldn't have published the story without just saying 'two dogs attacked the child' would then take the focus off the breeds and remind people that ALL dogs can be dangerous if left unattended.
>

Both the BBC and the Mail report have included advise regarding dogs in general. 
Why should the report not mention the breeds involved?   A beautiful little baby boy has died and the feelings of owners of the breeds pale into insignificance to that as far as I see. 

>which is that a young child tragically lost his life due to the oversight of his grandparents

We do not yet know what happened but if the media "banging on about the facts" means another family is more aware of how quickly things can happen then all to the good as far as I am concerned.  If this poor woman did leave the baby alone they she and her family have suffered grossly already and I see no need to attack her rather than concentrate on the message that the reports are putting out.

> If this poor woman did leave the baby alone they she and her family have suffered grossly already and I see no need to attack her rather than concentrate on the message that the reports are putting out.

I agree, the feelings the woman must be going through are unimaginable.

When my children were babies my dog was wonderfull with them, if my baby was asleep in his bouncer on the floor and the dog was asleep in his bed, I wouldn't have thought to remove the dog from the room while a nipped to the loo to save my baby getting killed by my dog - it just isn't something you think your own dog would do, despite these things being able to happen in the blink of an eye.
There is no way the woman can be branded as being at fault or that the dogs are ill bred & poorly behaved when the facts aren't known. This could have been completey out of character for the dogs, dogs jumps in cot with baby, baby grabbed dog (as babies do, they like to grab things bless 'em), dog freaks out & 'defends' itself.
I see no anti-dog campaign and no anti-staffi/jack russle campaign going on, just the sketchy reports of an horrific incident that ended with the death of a baby.

> It goes without saying that this child dying is above and beyond a tragedy.

If it goes without saying then why are you saying it?

Seeing as Staffies has such major problems with the wrong people breeding them for the wrong reasons and the wrong people buying them for the wrong reasons, I'm not at all sure it wouldn't be a bad thing for the breed to  become less desirable by Joe Public for the next decade or so.

I agree Marianne. 

I wish they would become less desireble for the majority of 'undesireables' who breed them for the wrong reasons.. but this doesnt help the thousands of homeless ones in rescues right now..which are just as much victims. MY dogs are my children. I do not breed children as I have an inherent illness,plus no means to support them for that matter. and dog breeding should be the same. I would never want staffies to be banned. as they are jolly, entertaining extremely loving and very human orientated dogs and I love their company. How anyone could think about 'fighting' them or using them for status or fashion is beyond me.I have saved three staffies from death, and they have a safe home for life.
I also donate every spare penny to dog rescue..but the fault ultimately lies with owners who think a dog is a whimsy to be dumped when fed up with and people who breed them to pay for their next flat screen tv or drug fix.
when will humans realise that an animal is a life and comes with responsibilities, be  it a mouse dog or horse.  alot of humans are far too self centred for my liking and these are the people who shouldnt get a dog in the first place.
going back to the mum..who apparently aquired 'tyson' because a peeping tom was watching her.. wouldnt an alarm or a house move have been a better option than to take in such a strong breed of dog when pregnant or having a tiny baby??

This is a terrible terrible shame, and the loss of the baby is a tragedy, whose loss will be keenly felt by family, friends, relatives and the emergency services who were called to the scene.

No matter how the press publicise about dogs and children it seems there is a small percentage of people who do not listen, and the consequences are sadly dire and heartbreaking.

> It goes without saying that this child dying is above and beyond a tragedy.

If it goes without saying then why are you saying it?

pinky, why do you feel the need to be so sarcastic?

>going back to the mum..who apparently aquired 'tyson' because a peeping tom was watching her.. wouldnt an alarm or a house move have been a better option than to take in such a strong breed of dog when pregnant or having a tiny baby??

I read it that the dog belonged to the grandmother, not the mother, and she bought it because she was getting stalked, not what we on here would recommend but apparantly the dog was very friendly. 

My view is (rightly or wrongly) both dogs were terriers, if the baby squealed like a animal then it would be a terrier instinct to go in for the kill as they would with a squeaky toy or a rat.

This is close to my heart as im currently pregnant, I dont have a clue as to how my two setters will take to a baby, im guessing they will be interested at first then not take alot of notice I think the biggest danger baby will have is getting whipped by their tails but I wont be taking any chances.

Its so so sad.. when its a tragedy that didnt need to happen.
I cant help but wonder why the baby was with the dogs in the first place. How do they know the staffie started it?
I have 2 staffies and they dont come into contact with my grandchild, I love my dogs to bits but i can never be too careful. While deep down i would like to think i could trust my dogs i would never leave it to chance.
My grandaughters life and my dogs lives are worth more.

I hope the baby rests in peace.

Donnax
(and my boysx)

its very very sad when any dog attacks anybody let alone killing a child but this type of thing will carry on happening because of ow ners breeding sub standard breeds people buying dogs which they know nothing of the history of the breed ,and just wanting one as a status symbol. i know any dog can be dangerous but staffs were breed to fight originally and a few may still have the aggressive streak in their genes. my jack russell has never used to hunt and for 5 generations his parents were breed for pets only. but if hes ouut for a walk he still gets a sniff of rabbit and will start digging at rabbit holes. its what the breed does. agin we cant blame different breeds for their behaviour but we can blame breeders and owner for not knowing how to control different breeds

A neighbour of the owners of the dogs in question was interviewed this morning on the local Welsh News programme and he said that he cannot understand what could have happened to cause this attack.  He said that the dogs, in his experience, were always fine in the past.  So can we all stop blaming the dogs, the owners of the dogs etc. and maintain the belief that dogs and babies should never be left alone in a room together regardless of breed and hopefully prevent anything like this happening again.

It's intresting to see this is another attack thats happend when round grandparents?

when my kids were babies and toddlers I never left them with the grandparents even for a short time because I didn't think they were aware of how to look after babies and small children.

Look at how many people who had an old dog who died then they get a pup and are shocked at how they behave and say Bess was never like this. They forget how hard work you need to put into supervision of young ones. But also in the past they took more risks.

I think it is about time the owners of the dogs were more accountable for the care of children in their charge, instead of placing the blame on the unsupervised dogs and babies. If this were taken more serious as a crime of neglect etc instead of an accident then people might take their responsibility more seriously and make sure babies are safe and not left alone with dogs.  But instead of punishing those who are to blame we and our dogs will be punished instead.

Poor baby to suffer this cruel and unnessesary death.

> i know any dog can be dangerous but staffs were breed to fight originally and a few may still have the aggressive streak in their genes

The important thing here is that certain breeds are designed to inflict more damage than others so when accidents happen they are equipped to make the situation more serious.

I do agree that this is neither the time nor the place to make character judgements on the parties involved, all information is at best 3rd hand.
In the case of some posters; looking out for one's self-interests and that of your breed, at a time when a family is grieving, is in bad taste IMHO.

Hate hearing these stories! 

Yet again the anti dog brigade will be assuming all staffies and Jack russells are "Devil Dogs" and looking to destroy all specimens.

I havent heard the full facts of this story as of yet, but I have doubt the error was with the person who was attempting to look after the baby, where was the baby ? What was it doing ?  And why was it left unattended with two dogs alone ?

Babies can be pretty scary creatures (they scare me) so can imagine to a dog who has never come across one when they start wailing screaming and thrashing their arms and legs about it is going to freak some dogs out! 
Any dog like one of the original posters has already said can attack under some circumstances, hence why children and babies should not be left alone with them.

In the past the cases which have been sensationalised on the news have interestingly always been people from the lower end of society (dont jump on me for this im stating a fact) who have no experience of dogs, have low intelligence and are usually more interested in going out drinking or smoking drugs and leaving their kids in care of whoever will put up with them for a while.

Yet another blow to the world of dogs !

> where was the baby ? What was it doing ? And why was it left unattended with two dogs alone ?
>

Do you know the answer to any of those questions? Do you even know if they were left unattended? And yet you "do not doubt the error was with the person".
Personally, I feel if they did leave the baby unattended because they had not considered the dogs to be capable of being a threat, their punishment has been far beyond any critisism that they might have heaped upon them by those that are far more concerned about this supposed "Devil Dog" campaign that I have not seen in any of the reports I have read. 

> In the past the cases which have been sensationalised on the news have interestingly always been people from the lower end of society (dont jump on me for this im stating a fact) who have no experience of dogs, have low intelligence and are usually more interested in going out drinking or smoking drugs and leaving their kids in care of whoever will put up with them for a while.

Really!  A fact!  I believe the Grandmother of the little girl who was killed by the PitBull was involved with drugs but I was not aware she was of low intelligence, nor the parents of the baby that was killed in the pub.  A door was accidently left upon, as I understood. Nor would I consider that leaving a baby with a Grandparent can be described as leaving your kids with anyone who will put up with them. 

> Yet another blow to the world of dogs !

Incredible :-( 

Hi Isabel!

Like I say I havent heard the full story of this incident as of yet, which I admit, and like I say I do imagine the baby was left unattended by the carer.  As for the "Devil Dog" reports of this story, if they are not out their yet they will be soon!

The press just love stories like this to scaremonger anyone who will listen, it sells their papers after all.  The dogs are made the enemy with little thought spared for them

And yes I would imagine the family involved in this tradgedy are in fact "undesireables"  as no sensible person would afford such little care to a baby in their charge.

Regarding the case of the little girl who was mauled by the "pitbull" in Liverpool, the grandmother was involved in drugs, and was of low intelligence in my opinion as were the rest of the family involved, I think the fact that they were involved in drugs and had this poor pit bull who was used for fighting sort of hints at that dont you ?

I can site several cases like the above going back over the past couple of years, every incident when screened on TV is surprise surprise some Vicky Pollard type mother with a fag in her mouth, tracksuit on who cant string a sentence together .
Not a clue about dog ownership responsibility and so their offspring pay the price . As do the dogs

My post isnt to offend anyone, its my opinion which I am entitled to, and unfortunately I have to deal with "undesireables" every day in the course of my job so know too well how they operate etc....

what a snobbish attitude meadow hay.to say these attacks only happen on lower end society is a terrible attack on these grieving parents. just a couple of years ago Princess Annes english bull attacked while out for a walk(BUT THEY NEVER DID THIS BEFORE) ,the royal corgis have once or twice been reported as being snappy, .so whether a someone is biten or killed by a dog makes no differnce the attacks shouldnt happen in the first place. and i think an who apology is in order for all us lower end of society people whos dogs are well cared for and loved and who dogs are always kept under control. ps having had dogs for over 30yrs the only feisty one ive owned is a jack russell.

> And yes I would imagine the family involved in this tradgedy are in fact "undesireables"  as no sensible person would afford such little care to a baby in their charge.

I can't believe I'm reading this :-(  Where does it say that the grandparents were negligent?

I don't believe there is anyone out there who has had dogs and young kids that can honestly say they have never left them alone. What if the baby is sleeping in it's moses basket in the livingroom, the dogs are sleeping in their bed in the kitchen and you need the loo. How many people can honestly say they would call the dogs or wake the baby and take one or the other to the loo with them? So you go to the loo, the baby stirs - the dogs wonder what's moving in the livingroom and come through and maybe nudge the baby with their noses. The baby cries, terriers love squeaky toys...this looks like a squeaky toy to them....

Until I hear otherwise then as far as I'm concerned this was a tragic accident.

> My post isnt to offend anyone, its my opinion which I am entitled to, and unfortunately I have to deal with "undesireables" every day in the course of my job so know too well how they operate etc....

Personally, whatever their social standing I find people with this sort of attitude undesirable.

>I don't believe there is anyone out there who has had dogs and young kids that can honestly say they have never left them alone. What if the baby is sleeping in it's moses basket in the livingroom, the dogs are sleeping in their bed in the kitchen and you need the loo. How many people can honestly say they would call the dogs or wake the baby and take one or the other to the loo with them? So you go to the loo, the baby stirs - the dogs wonder what's moving in the livingroom and come through and maybe nudge the baby with their noses. The baby cries, terriers love squeaky toys...this looks like a squeaky toy to them....

>Until I hear otherwise then as far as I'm concerned this was a tragic accident.

Ditto.