"Babies can be pretty scary creatures"

........

Seriously....are you sure about that ??? At 3 and a 1/2 months I doubt the baby would of been doing anything to 'scare' a dog.

> The press just love stories like this to scaremonger anyone who will listen

It might also make people more aware and help prevent future tragedies.

>And yes I would imagine the family involved in this tradgedy are in fact "undesireables"  as no sensible person would afford such little care to a baby in their charge.

I think a lot of people of all social types are capable of underestimating what their seemingly innocuous pet can do.  Having a very young baby in the house is also very tiring and may not leave you at your best.  Accidents happen, doors are left ajar, people trip.  I believe the death of a baby years ago, killed by a JR, occured in the presence of people.  Attacks can be very swift and very damaging.  Considering all the variables I cannot see that you are in any position to make these sweeping judgements let alone the fact your primary concern for the breeds of dogs involved is highly distasteful.

>I think the fact that they were involved in drugs and had this poor pit bull who was used for fighting sort of hints at that dont you ?

I can't see that would follow at all.  Many highly disreputable people are as intelligent as you and I.

> unfortunately I have to deal with "undesireables" every day in the course of my job so know too well how they operate etc....

Mmmmm.  A little more training in Equality and Diversity would not go a miss.

> Yet another blow to the world of dogs !

I'm speechless, this comment beggars belief!!!

> I'm speechless, this comment beggars belief!!!

You haven't been on this forum long enough then!!

I'm often saddened to read posts about how the writer regards dogs to be more important to them than humans, even their own children.

I am horrified by some of the comments on this thread - first and foremost A MUCH-LOVED BABY HAS DIED.

We know nothing of the circumstances of the family - so why are certain posters jumping to conclusions?

As for you, Meadowhay - I am horrified that someone who has to "unfortunately I have to deal with "undesireables" every day in the course of my job so know too well how they operate etc.... " is so judgmental ....do you really think you are in the right occupation?  I certainly don't.

Until all the facts are known, can't we just restrict ourselves to sending condolences to the family concerned and to reiterate the comments of the police that "young children and dogs should not be left alone".

Margot

I'm often saddened to read posts about how the writer regards dogs to be more important to them than humans, even their own children.

Ditto Tooolz.  It leaves me speechless.

>Seriously....are you sure about that ??? At 3 and a 1/2 months I doubt the baby would of been doing anything to 'scare' a dog.

of course, anything a dog isnt used to can be scary.  If a dog has never heard a baby squeal or scream, especially in its own home, then it may find that scary and may react out of character.

I have 4 of the most calmest, sweetest and most gentle dogs ever but i would never on any circumstances leave them alone with a small child, as they are dogs.
a dog can react unpredictably to any type of stimulus, a high pitched scream, a fit, anything they are dogs and as much as i love my dogs and am not overly fond of children i still would never put my dogs or a child in that siuation.

> I am horrified by some of the comments on this thread - first and foremost A MUCH-LOVED BABY HAS DIED>

> We know nothing of the circumstances of the family - so why are certain posters jumping to conclusions?

I totally agree Lokis mum

Some posters are coming out with such diatribe that all they are succeeding in doing is making themselves look like complete and utter selfish, insensitive fools.

Thank God there are still sufficient members of this forum who have their priorities right. 

Some of the comments regarding the defence of the breeds rather than the tragedy and horror of the brutal death of a CHILD - a 3 month old baby no less - beggar belief.

Frankly I'm thoroughly disgusted with those that feel the need to wax lyrical about them and how awful to have their reputations tarnished further - all that is awful here IMO is that a baby has been killed and his family devastated beyond our comprehension.

As for categorising this poor family or any member of it as though they were some lesser member of society it's outrageous and if anything puts such members in a very poor light themselves  

Thank you Margot for injecting some much needed common sense to the proceedings.

ps i dont drink smoke or take drugs and i would be called evrthing under the sun if i mentioned about a lot of the elderly and others who constantly treat their dogs like children turning the dogs to snappy overprotective dogs. because these are usually small or toy groups we all think the behaviour is quieet funny but if this behaviour happened in a larger breed its serious.what double standards.

> turning the dogs to snappy overprotective dogs because these are usually small or toy groups we all think the behaviour is quieet funny

Really - not me nor anyone I'm aware of!

Turning this tragedy into anything other than what it is - a vile and horrific end to a human baby's life - is entirely despicable IMO.  Had this been my breed of dog I would have felt exactly the same.

> i would be called evrthing under the sun if i mentioned about a lot of the elderly and others who constantly treat their dogs like children turning the dogs to snappy overprotective dogs.

I don't know about calling you everything under the sun but I would question whether inappropriate treatment of dogs in this way was specific to the elderly.  Not sure what this has to do with any that has been remarked upon here though

> turning the dogs to snappy overprotective dogs. because these are usually small or toy groups we all think the behaviour is quieet funny but if this behaviour happened in a larger breed its serious.what double standards.

Totally disagree, even a sweet little powder puff ball poochy woochy can give a nasty bite, and don't lump us all in to the same catorgory by saying things like 'we all think the behaviour is quite funny' !

Blimy My Mum was a grandmother at 42 at that time my youngest was about 10 and Mum had not forgotten which end to change and which to feed!.
I had my Great nieces baby at 7 days old when she was ill she always felt I was better with her than her Dad, at 53 I have three children every Tuesday and my own 2 dogs.

An accident has occurred a misjudgement, a tragedy not the first and not the last. The baby tragically is dead, its Mum & Dad are grieving and his Nanny will never forgive herself.

Two dogs are also dead and they had killed the baby so justifiably had to be PTS. Its not an easy world.

Any breed of dog can kill, thats a fact and we should all thank God that we arent a relative of that baby or owner of those poor dogs.

My Great Niece also has a dog called Dedo a beautiful Staffie. Her three are 5, 2 and 6 months. I ensure I take the baby when I go the loo, I keep dogs and children apart because they are a right pain all 5 together and the baby if asleep is placed in my bedroom with the door shut.

Its just a tragedy, its a great pity dogs were involved, its a great pity a baby died but no reason for certain members of the group to get up on their private soap box either. I think that his parents and grandparents will carry this one for a lifetime, would a prison sentance do as good or would you suggest a cat of nine tails!!  How will you and your dogs be punished then ??? unbelievable comment that one in the face of this killing of a baby by two dogs.

whoever owns a dog,whatever breed they choose,if your young or old i dont think a dog should be treated like a human.especially like a child.we teach the dog to behave and we must choose a breed we know a lot about through breeders,books or clubs so we know the pitfalls of a breed and can we control these pitfalls,as experienced dog owners know some dogs are not for inexperienced owners. the 2 dogs involved have now cast a shadow over thier breeds. thins was a tragic accident but sadly it wont be the last until people choose dogs that they know the rough temprament of,and dont pick a breed just because it makes you look hard or other people got one. rip littleman from diggersdad and his family

why do the people that go on about how lovely this breed is ignore the fact that every time we hear of one of these tragedies (and that's what it is), more often than not it's a bull type breed that is involved. time after time it's the same.

to say it's not breed related is to be blind to the facts.

these dogs, where you choose to believe it or not, have a far higher potential for damage than most others; that potential is ignored again and just look at the cost again

I know of more people who have been bitten by their yorkies/poodles/mutts/collies AND labs.  I think you will find that the vast majority of dog bites/attacks will also go unreported so there is no way of getting a fair estimate on breeds. 

It's a tragic accident and the family will forever ask the question "what if?".

My thoughts go out to this poor baby's family.  Had it been me and mine, the dogs would have been PTS also.

>> turning the dogs to snappy overprotective dogs because these are usually small or toy groups we all think the behaviour is quieet funny

Me Neither :(

Bites will go unreported because thats all they are - bites.  These dogs attacked and killed, unfortunately bull breeds dont seem to just nip they seem to go for the full blown attack and due to the fact they are so powerful it ends up much worse than a yorkie biting.

Unfortunately I think that the fact this was a baby was what made the attack that much worse and deadly - the mouths and teeth of any dog would be big enough to do considerable damage. 3 month old babies are so small and fragile :-(

sorry if i offended but what i mean to say is some of the public find it funny. i have a boxer ,jack russell and 2 mini yorkies,and people find it funny to wind the yorkies up and get them barking (i annoys me)but if they did it to the jk or boxer and they bark the dogs would be in trouble. the yorkies ,are snappy dogs by nature and i treat them like the other dogs (not to bark or snap) but a lot of people treat yorkies like children and let them carry on being spoilt little children. a snappy dog whatever size is asnappy dog and most of the time its caused through how the owner treat them.we the owners are the pack leaders not the dogs, which dogs think if you dont put them in their place.again im sorry about mentioning the elderly , i should of said anyone who owns a snappy breed but dont try and correct the problem,just use it as an excuse for the dogs behavour.

but a bite is a bite whether its a big dog or little dog and shouldnt happen.do u get a lesser prison sentence for stabbing someone with a penknife rather than a breadknife?ps in their own ways when a yorkie bites it is often their version of a full blown at but because of there size no damage is done, but it is still an attack.

> but because of there size no damage is done

Exactly.  This is the point people are making.  Some breeds carry a greater risk that others.

ah i see i thought it was not acceptable for any dog to bite or show aggression but it seems acceptable in some breeds,and some people. ill tell that to the young lad who was in ae with my son when a small terrier bit him on the face.

does that then mean that staffy owners are of low intelligence?! You are treading on thin ice saying that.  People who have drug problems, who wear tracksuits and who smoke cigarettes does not equate them to being of low intelligence.  I am none of those things, I am a primary school teacher first and a breeder second, but we would be shot on site if we dared suggest the above.  When I get home from work I like to walk my staffy, boxer and irish setter in my tracksuit as I'm sick of being in work clothes all day.  Because I have a staffy does that make me of low intelligence?  Of course not.  I know the 'type' that you refer to because I find myself constantly trying to educate them in the park and so on,  but you really need to be careful as what you said was a sweeping statement!

I think it's neither here nor there if you ask grandparents to look after their grandchildren.  In fact I think it's good for a child to have a relationship with their grandparents (as one who could not because they passed away before I was born and the others lived in my native Greece as a child).  The issue, which the grandparents will have to pay the price for the rest of their lives, is to not leave a child unattended with a dog.  That's not to say that all dogs will attack, but you have to err on the side of caution with anything which cannot defend itself (namely a young child). 

As someone with lots of cats as well (just to prove a point), we are told not to leave cats unattended with young babies as they can smother them when they are cuddling the baby.  That's not to say that we ever see on the news about psycho crazy death cats!  But any animal with a youngster shouldn't be left unattended.  I pass no judgement on the grandparents because it's an easy mistake to make when you are with a pet which you trust wholeheartedly as I'm sure they did, they would have no reason to believe their pets would kill their grandchild in a month of sundays.  But it's a stark reminder to us all that we need to be careful and educate others around us who may not understand why it's important.  I had a discussion with my children in class as they asked about it (knowing that I breed dogs) and it was very interesting to hear 9 year olds coming up with an awful lot of common sense comments!

I think it's really important all people understand NO DOG should bite or show aggression to humans.  I rescued a staffy who started to exhibit behavioural problems.  I was straight in with a behaviourist and getting vet advice, and make conscious efforts to ensure people around me were safe when she was around, including muzzling her at all times out of the family home.  Just because she is a bull breed, did NOT give her carte blanche to growl and jump at people 'because she's got it in her genes', but I think staffy owners are aware of that issue.  Chocolate labs are known to bite lots of people round our area, but people ignore that because labs don't look threatening or like fighting dogs.  As has been said time and again, it's the OWNERS responsibility to ensure their dog behaves in an appropriate manner, and if not then they must take the necessary actions to ensure ANY breed of dog does not cause a problem in the society it lives in.

> ah i see i thought it was not acceptable for any dog to bite or show aggression but it seems acceptable in some breeds

I said nothing about any dog bite being acceptable.  I think you need to read my post again.

sorry if i offended u but i was trying do defend the remarks put out by meadow hay

some dogs carry a greater risk. i think it should be all dogs carry a risk.ps is that your dog. looks a cracker

>it's the OWNERS responsibility to ensure their dog behaves in an appropriate manner, and if not then they must take the necessary actions to ensure ANY breed of dog does not cause a problem in the society it lives in.

Which would include not breeding from bitches with behavioural problems.

I don't think anyone says it is acceptable, but some breeds because of what they were bred for are more reactive as the instincts are those that make them good vermin catchers, (sadly fighters), or whatever.

> ps is that your dog. looks a cracker

Yes, it is.  Thank you very much.
I agree all dogs carry a risk but I believe the risks do vary.

exactly so unless there housed with a respnsable owner who knows the breed the the problem with get worse. some breeders are just breeding time bombs and together with inexperieced owner it could mean tragidies like this happening more often.

well isabel thanks for the debate but i had enough now.see u later

Bye, Dave :-)

I cannot beleive some of the ignorant comments made....

ANY breed of dog is capable of both biting AND killing IF it is not poperly bred and brought up....

>>>>>>why do the people that go on about how lovely this breed is ignore the fact that every time we hear of one of these tragedies (and that's what it is), more often than not it's a bull type breed that is involved. time after time it's the same.<<<<<

Its more often a bull breed you hear about as the little fluffys dont make interesting reading in the media

>>>>to say it's not breed related is to be blind to the facts.<<<<

Ah right- what about the bullbreeds who are PAT dogs etc- or are they just an exception?

>>>>these dogs, where you choose to believe it or not, have a far higher potential for damage than most others; that potential is ignored again and just look at the cost again<<<<

You dont even know the facts and you dont even know which dog caused this incident- or has the JRT been excused now as its always got to be a stafford thats in the wrong isnt it?
I own staffords and Im not a low life or of low  intelligence- in fact I have a very good job and have a few professional diplomas under my belt and qualifications after  my name. I also own a cross bred JRT/stafford (rescued)..... does that make me a double idiot then?

can i just say- i havnt read every post on here as there are quite a few- from what i have read though i get the impression people are getting very defensive about this. I understand people not wanting the sbt devil dog label etc but the fact is, these two breeds of dog killed an innocent baby, regardless of breed it is what they did. I have seen no reporting that has been unfair on the sbt-just accurate reporting. the family released a statement saying never leave a dog and child unattended...that would lead me to believe the baby was left alone with these dogs who did not normally live with the baby as they belonged to the grandmother.

People say never leave a dog and baby unsupervised....what length of time is classed as unsupervised? because i leave my two gsds in the same room as my two year old if i nip upstairs or into the kitchen, garden, loo etc. I can honestly say i trust my dogs 100% with my son - some of you may not be able to comprehend that but i do, and franckly if i did not trust them 100% then i would not be able to keep them as my son comes first. HOWEVER i only trust them 99% of the time with other peoples children, whether they know them well or not. this is because my dogs see my son as part of their family(or pack if you lke) and these other children are not part of that unit therefore i have a tiny shadow of doubt on their behaviour around other children(they have never done anything to make me feel this way. so am i bad/wrong for doing this?......should i lock them away every time i leave the room?

I would not leave a dog and baby unsupervised for any length of time at all - not even to nip to the loo. Our two dogs are the 'small fluffy' kind, and I know they have sound temperaments, yet I do believe any dog can do harm and you should never be complacent. As we know a dog can suddenly show aggression if it is ill or in pain for example. Although I think our dogs are unlikely to do as much damage as a more powerful dog that does not mean there is no risk and personally I would never trust them 100% even round my own children. 

>because i leave my two gsds in the same room as my two year old if i nip upstairs or into the kitchen, garden, loo etc. I can honestly say i trust my dogs 100% with my son - some of you may not be able to comprehend that but i do,

When my son was young I was exactly the same. I trusted my dogs with him because I knew they'd come to me if they were worried about anything. I knew that. I never had a moment's worry about them, and my trust was never put in doubt.

> leave my two gsds in the same room as my two year old if i nip upstairs or into the kitchen, garden, loo etc. I can honestly say i trust my dogs 100% with my son - some of you may not be able to comprehend that

Sorry, but I'm one of those who can't comprehend what you've said.  Our dog is of the small furball variety, who's never harmed a fly, I still wouldn't leave her alone with my 18 month old for a second, no matter how much I trust her.  What if my 18 month old grabbed her?  What would she do then?  I would hope she would retreat to safety, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take for either of them.

My heart goes out to this family and the poor baby, it's just too horrible.

> because i leave my two gsds in the same room as my two year old if i nip upstairs or into the kitchen, garden, loo etc. I can honestly say i trust my dogs 100% with my son - some of you may not be able to comprehend that but i do,

I do understand, I posted earlier on this thread that I would leave my baby asleep in his bouncer in the livingroom with the dog asleep in his bed while I nipped to the loo. I wouldn't leave a baby with the clumsy hulk of a dog I have now, but the mongrel I had when my children were babies was so carefull around them.

I can't imagine having a dog in the house and having to think everytime I nipped out of a room "best move the dog/children so the dog doesn't kill the kids".

> HOWEVER i only trust them 99% of the time with other peoples children, whether they know them well or not.

Same here.

> I can't imagine having a dog in the house and having to think everytime I nipped out of a room "best move the dog/children so the dog doesn't kill the kids".
>

I certainly don't think that consciously, it is just a habit to never leave dogs and young children unsupervised. I have always been like this - when I was a child our beloved family dog was PTS as it bit a child. That dog was a Golden Retriever which had been trained as a Guide dog, so I do believe however well trained/ well understood a dog is, it is best not to leave them alone with young children.  

> My view is (rightly or wrongly) both dogs were terriers, if the baby squealed like a animal then it would be a terrier instinct to go in for the kill as they would with a squeaky toy or a rat.
>

This is very true and being a JRT owner for over 20 + years and have never had a bad one ( some people may be surprised at this ) I will and never have left a child alone  with my dogs. However when my children were new born and made the squeaky mice like noises that a baby does the dogs were , by pure instinct, interested  and would react  the same way as  if they had heard a mouse .

When I had my first child I let my sister in law carry him in to the house when I came home from hospital as I knew my dog would want to welcome me home.
She then was introduced to my son.
She was very interested and nudged and sniffed and licked his hands , she then had a sniff about at the new pram and jumped in to it (Baby was not in it at the time)so she got told off and never  ever did that again.
She was allways very protective of my son and would sit by him when he was in his bouncy chair or had to be lifted up to see he was ok  when we returned home after being for a walk or shopping. She would come and tell us if she heard him crying  and her most favorite thing was to watch him being bathed in his baby bath because she liked to drink the bath water or lick his wee legs.
I allways let her get involved and didnt make her feel pushed to the side because of the baby and I think this is what made her so good with him.  I would still allways be carefull and take note on where she was and not leave her allone with him BUT there were a couple of times when I would forget ,perhaps because she was so good , and  would walk out of the room leaving the two of them together , suddenly remembering , running back to them and there they were quite happy both sitting in the bouncy chair TOGETHER

This woman may have had the baby in a pram thinking it was out of harms way, we do not even know that the baby was left alone when this awfull thing happened .

The thing is lots of children have lost their lives through freak accidents, getting drowned in paddling pools, strangled on cords of blinds etc but because a dog is involved it does unfortunately make the headlines.

No one at this time should blame the dogs or the Grandparents untill all the facts are known but as we all know the dogs will be the ones that most people will say were the prime suspects and because of the breeds involved it makes it even worse as they do get bad press which is unfortunate.These dogs could have been good natured dogs but the animal instinct in them is allways there and  it has to be respected.

I feel for the Parents and Grandparents but most of all for the baby who had only been here for such a short time .

I do also feel sad for the dogs as they were most probably very confused as they would not have realised what an awfull thing they had just done .

I cannot beleive some of the ignorant comments made....

ANY breed of dog is capable of both biting AND killing IF it is not poperly bred and brought up....

>>>>>>why do the people that go on about how lovely this breed is ignore the fact that every time we hear of one of these tragedies (and that's what it is), more often than not it's a bull type breed that is involved. time after time it's the same.<<<<<

Its more often a bull breed you hear about as the little fluffys dont make interesting reading in the media

>>>>to say it's not breed related is to be blind to the facts.<<<<

Ah right- what about the bullbreeds who are PAT dogs etc- or are they just an exception?

>>>>these dogs, where you choose to believe it or not, have a far higher potential for damage than most others; that potential is ignored again and just look at the cost again<<<<

You dont even know the facts and you dont even know which dog caused this incident- or has the JRT been excused now as its always got to be a stafford thats in the wrong isnt it?
I own staffords and Im not a low life or of low  intelligence- in fact I have a very good job and have a few professional diplomas under my belt and qualifications after  my name. I also own a cross bred JRT/stafford (rescued)..... does that make me a double idiot then?

???

What a confused response.

How many 'little fluffys' (as you so charitably put it) actually kill children? I don't dispute that bites can and do occur. My point is that, due to the potential of these bull breeds, the damage is so much greater.

And if you are so intelligent and well qualified, perhaps you can explain where I made any reference to you being "a low life or of low  intelligence" or a "idiot".

Your standard retort of 'ANY breed of dog.......... blah blah blah' is exactly to be expected from one so defensive. It's exactly that stance I am talking about. You ignore the potential of this breed for harm.

when my kids were babies and toddlers I never left them with the grandparents even for a short time because I didn't think they were aware of how to look after babies and small children.

Did they not bring you up when you where a baby or  small child???????? ofcause g/parents can look after small children, they may be rusty..but its like riding a bike, you soon get back to it.

My children where left with their g/parents many times... did they do things as I did, NO, does it matter NO,, where they spoilt /loved,YES!!

Getting back to this tragedy... A baby has died, and in my book, that take presidence over the defence of a breed or individual dogs.

To lose a child is the worst thing that can happen to any parent..and in such circumstances   will tenfold it.

Till the facts come out, lets not judge anyone for being negligent shall we.

I've read this thread with great interest. I am going to inject my own personal opinion now whether others believe that to be right or not......

IMO First and foremost RIP to that darling little baby who lost its life so early on and to the parents and family who have lost that dear little child.
Wherever or whoever the blame lays with the family do not deserve to be going through this.
As someone has said we would all like to say we never make make mistakes but im sure we have all inwittingly popped out of the room "for a split second".

I dont have children but if i did i would not be leaving them with anyone unless i trusted them and their judgement 110%. I'm sure the mother did not leave her child in grandparents care and not trust them.

Somewhere a terrible terrible error was made and if i was in the same boat i would have my dog destroyed(even though i love him with all my heart). lets hope this story makes some people aware and the good that comes of it will be nobody else makes the same mistake again.

I think the issue with bull breeds is that they have terrier in them and im sure many of you know that when a terrier wants something, eg a tug/toy etc they are very determined-so whatever happened on that fateful night -the dogs were obviously determined- maybe he cried and they treated him like a squeeky toy? we will probably never know the full truth but imo the reason it is bull breeds in the spotlight is because they are capable of doing more harm than your average pet dog

> imo the reason it is bull breeds in the spotlight is because they are capable of doing more harm than your average pet dog

Bull breeds are not in the spot light (apart from by people here who are blaming bull-breeds). The spotlight is on the tragic death of a baby caused by 2 dogs, a SBT AND a JRT - I've read that reports show the JRT was also responsible. This horrific death of a baby goes to prove that even 'your average pet' (ie, the JRT) is capeable of  killing a baby.