In response to to a post in another thread Tish posted the following which is worthy of a thread in its own right.

>"One of the reasons for starting this thread is that the original poster in the other thread came to Champdogs for advice and information and there is as much, if not more,  collective knowledge in this forum as any breed club.

No one could dispute this

> "However the problem is often in how that advice is given. All too often the poster will take the responses as a personal criticism and in many cases you couldn't blame them. Nobody likes to be criticised so invariably the poster just leaves never to return and we have collectively lost the opportunity to educate."

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with the educate part - I disagree that the OP shouldn't be questioned on their reasons to breed. In fact the mission statement of Champdogs is to promote responsible breeding. So whilst some responses could be soft soaped more, would the potential breeder then take on board that this is not something to be jumped into, but done with consideration.

In 2 recent posts, one owner had clearly done a lot of research but was panicked. the support she got here was heartwarming, informative and so reassuring for her.

In the second, I fear in face of this recent issue more breeders did not respond"

So how do we, as a forum, ensure we get our message across but also ensure that the poster stays around long enough to listen ?

Good subject and hard to answer. There was one very recently  where I was itching to ask things but didn't know how to word it

The way I see it is.... I have the gift to give my long, hard won experience...its not my duty.

Sometimes I feel it is facilitating a greedy thoughtless dog exploiter and other times I feel its helping a hapless person who has bitten off more than they can chew.

Like many decisions in breeding dogs....gut instinct kicks in.

Tooolz has a point here.

Why should experienced knowledgeable breeders be expected to assist someone who basically just wants to make money from their bitch?    These breeders have worked long and hard to amass their experience and it hasn't come cheap.

Someone who does no research,  hasn't read any books and just accesses the information which is basically given free on this board.   They don't even do a search to see if the subject has been covered.   They just join and ask the question.   They rarely  come   back to  say thank you.

These are also the main people who object when asked why they are breeding.  And shout even louder if they don't like the advice given.

Personally,  I wonder if it is irresponsible to help these people.   If we help and they are successful,  then they will continue to  breed for the cash.   More puppies on the ground and more dogs  in rescue.

If we refuse to engage with them, they end up  at the vets,  which takes some of their profit and possibly makes them less likely to  breed again.

> If we refuse to engage with them, they end up  at the vets

causing possible pain and suffering to the dog(s) .......

Difficult one :(

"Why should experienced knowledgeable breeders be expected to assist someone who basically just wants to make money from their bitch?    These breeders have worked long and hard to amass their experience and it hasn't come cheap"

Sadly, because by the time the bitch is pregnant or whelping it is no longer about the person breeding - you aren't helping them - you are helping save the pups and the mother.

My personal view is that you are all pretty much stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

If they come on the site asking for advice because they are thinking about breeding - then it is an opportunity to possibly stop someone doing it that shouldn't by giving them hard facts and asking them questions so as to gently be able to explain a little more about breeding, the things that could go wrong, the repercussions to unhealthily bred pups and their owners, and the cost of breeding a bitch properly etc. That's an opportunity that cant be missed and the more gentle people go about it then the more of your advice they will actually read, take in and digest - one rough comment or one comment that someone could take as a criticism may stop them reading anything else and carrying on with their plan to breed regardless. However, these people who ask advice beforehand, in my opinion, are very unlikely to be profiteering back yard breeders etc - they are far more likely to be someone who loves their dog, believes it is beautiful, well tempered and healthy and who has thought it would be nice to have a second dog, that being the offspring of their dog and has friends around them agreeing and saying they would buy one of the other pups etc. 

I believe that the worst of the worst sort of breeders out for profit and profit alone, and potential puppy mill breeders, quite simply wouldn't come on here to ask anything beforehand in the first place - they don't care about the health of the dog or the pups, they have no intention of caring about or improving anything in a breed, and they will go ahead no matter what and more than likely not asking any advice at any time, researching anything or buying any whelping equipment, those sort of breeders don't ask whether they should breed in advance - those sort of breeders are unlikely to ever ask a question and if they lose a litter will shrug and just breed their bitch again the next chance they get.  They are also the sort of people with thick skins that are unlikely to either get offended about any comments nor take any notice of anyone who "has a go" at them in any way and unlikely to ever actually post anything on here.

New byb may well come on here for advice during whelping or immediately afterwards if something goes wrong or if they desperately need to preserve their "profit" - but there in lies where you are all stuck because at that point its about potentially saving the life of pups and the mother - and the owner at that point isn't really who you are helping.  If you feel strongly that the poster is someone you believe shouldn't be helped - just answer with a single line - "sorry, cant help, sounds bad, you need to go to a vet".

> So how do we, as a forum, ensure we get our message across but also ensure that the poster stays around long enough to listen ?

Personally, I think it's important to get the full picture before jumping to conclusions, which quickly leads to people becoming defensive, and the worse case scenario... not returning.

> Personally, I think it's important to get the full picture before jumping to conclusions, which quickly leads to people becoming defensive, and the worse case scenario... not returning.

Yeah, and another point of view.  I have spent many years concentrating on breeding a line of self whelping bitches in a breed almost expected by some breeders to have a C-section regardless.  I consider myself very experienced in recognising inertia.  I refuse to breed from a bitch that has had inertia (because the daughters also seem to have the problem.)  And I have a bitch spayed if she needs a section.  To many people, given that the breed averages between 1-3 pups it takes far too many years to arrive at your target. 

People will come on here once their bitch is already having problems.  With no research done at all.  I will spend hours typing out my advice (with one finger.)  It is very rare that I get a thank you.  And if I tell someone that their bitch needs to get to a vet, my advice is ignored.  Eventually, a week later, we learn that the bitch needed a section.  Well, yes it is why I told you to get to the vet.  Not you personally, I'm just joining in at the end here. 

So many, many times it happens.  I am getting tired of it now.  Because I know that the bitch suffered because you made her wait.  I could tear my hair out.  It is so cruel.

Just to confirm.  I am talking about sections on a very tiny breed.  I only ever give advice on toys.  I do understand that their are CD people with years of experience of whelping larger bitches.  And that they can wait longer than a toy.  And only need a section because of malpresentation (for example) so it's a different kettle of fish.

> Yeah, and another point of view.  I have spent many years concentrating on breeding a line of self whelping bitches in a breed almost expected by some breeders to have a C-section regardless.  I consider myself very experienced in recognising inertia.  I refuse to breed from a bitch that has had inertia (because the daughters also seem to have the problem.)

I don't think it's wrong to alert any owner to the possibility of inertia. It may affect some breeds more than others, but in theory it could affect any.
It used to happen more frequently in cats, until chlamydiosis infection was proven to be a cause; and has also happened in rodents due to a different symptomless infectious agent.

It just doesn't do to be complacent.

> <br />I don't think it's wrong to alert any owner to the possibility of inertia.

But the majority think that it doesn't apply to their bitch.  Couldn't happen to them.  So many ignore the urgency of the situation however much I plead.  I don't get any satisfaction from hearing that a section was required ages after I advised that a vet visit was urgently required.  I have never said "I told you so."  It has happened so many times that I now feel that I can't keep advising people who think a section is no biggie.  Because it is.

I think having well written reference posts or articles can be extremely useful in getting your point across, particularly if the same subject keeps cropping up.

However doing it properly takes time and is not easy, but I think it is time and effort well spent.

For example the Champdogs Puppy Buyers Guide was created from the thoughts and opinions of forum members a few years ago and probably took me a week to write.

We often get queries from people asking where can they find a puppy or breeder of a certain breed. We give them a link to the appropriate section on Champdogs and suggest that they read the puppy buyers guide before they contact anyone.

The guide is viewed over 300 times every day with people spending on average 1 minute on the page. So it was certainly worth making the effort to write it.

I am planning to write a similar article regarding breeding a litter based on information in the thread we currently have running.

Jean have you considered writing an article regarding self whelping in your breed, why you have done what you have done, the risks of a c-section, how to spot inertia etc.

We could publish it on the Champdogs Blog and then the next time the topic comes you then no longer have to repeat yourself, you can just refer people to the article and if they have any further questions which are not covered they can ask them on the forum.

Sadly, because by the time the bitch is pregnant or whelping it is no longer about the person breeding - you aren't helping them - you are helping save the pups and the mother.
I have experience as a veterinary nurse, showing and breeding for 30 years.  I have always been happy to help those asking for advice before mating their bitch.  There is so much information on the internet these days that there is no excuse for anyone not to have the very basic knowledge.
But I will not help those who have already foolishly mated their bitch without sufficient knowledge.  Guiding those is not helping to save the pups and the dam at all - it's making their journey easier which in turn will just subject the bitch and possibly her puppies to be used again.  And that's no better from advising people to buy from a puppy farm where the bitches are used for gain.

I didn't know that article existed , very good and hope the next one on breeding a litter is just as good.

One area that might also be good to get an article written on or included in the breeding a litter one is rescues and how indiscriminate breeding by the not so good breeders is flooding the rescues almost to breaking point in alot of breeds. It should emphasise that if a breeder is not willing to be responsible for the pup for the duration of its life then what the consequences could be and in the worse case scenario euthanisation.

"But I will not help those who have already foolishly mated their bitch without sufficient knowledge.  Guiding those is not helping to save the pups and the dam at all - it's making their journey easier which in turn will just subject the bitch and possibly her puppies to be used again.  And that's no better from advising people to buy from a puppy farm where the bitches are used for gain."

Please dont think that I am disagreeing with you WestCoast because I don't - I hate puppy farmers with a vengeance and do also get annoyed with ill-informed people that breed without educating themselves with any aspect of breeding or genetics- I completely agree with you on that but to withhold help in those cases when people ask for assistance on here seems a bit harsh since we have no real idea what sort of the breeder the poster is in most cases. Shouldn't animal health and welfare always be the prime consideration, just as it is for vets and veterinary nurses? How can a forum ever know enough to decide who should be helped and who shouldn't, who if helped this time will just breed again and who wont? What if assumptions made about the breeder are wrong? Surely the only ethical thing to do is for people to answer helping the poster in a time of need, giving them the benefit of the doubt, simply in order to have a conscious regard to the health and welfare of the animals in question? - or not answer other than to refer them to a book or article that is appropriate or tell them to go to a vet.

"I didn't know that article existed , very good and hope the next one on breeding a litter is just as good."

Ooh you don't know what you are missing. Very often i do a search on a topic and there will be lots of different posts on it. You can then see if They are helpful prior to posting. I find the training and grooming ones priceless for me personally and often refer back to them (props to Dill for the grooming links too)

"One area that might also be good to get an article written on or included in the breeding a litter one is rescues and how indiscriminate breeding by the not so good breeders is flooding the rescues almost to breaking point in alot of breeds. It should emphasise that if a breeder is not willing to be responsible for the pup for the duration of its life then what the consequences could be and in the worse case scenario euthanisation."

And again I think it should be highlighted / emphasised that these are written by experienced breeders.  I also think it would be good to have a list of recommended reading materials and links to studies on eg effects of spay neutering such as the one that Brainless has posted (naia on line)

The vet I used to use gave anyone wanting to breed their Boxer my phone number. I could have made a nice bit of pocket money by letting them use my dog but never did.  He was used at stud twice because I wanted a particular bloodline.

I tried as hard as I could to put them off by telling them all the problems they could encounter and if they were still keen gave them the phone number for breed club secretary

> So how do we, as a forum, ensure we get our message across but also ensure that the poster stays around long enough to listen ?

In many cases - regardless of how 'supportive' (or not) the responses - the OP simply throws a question out there and disappears.  We may assume it's because they don't like the replies they receive but if they don't ever bother to come back we simply don't know the reason. 

Knowing, as we do, that there is often just this one chance to answer we don't have the time for a protracted question and answer session.  Therefore most responders tend to bundle all their best advice into one post.  This post also assumes a zero knowledge base and treats all enquiries as though they are novices.  I don't think there is anything wrong with this, these threads can still be found years later and will be read by many more people than the OP.

It is very useful to be able to refer readers to old posts, and to the kind of threads that used to sit at the top of each of the different boards: such as "Should I use my dog at stud"

Perhaps we could have a section that gives advice on how to get the most out the forum and suggest that first time users have a read before posting...   It could advise what information to give, remembering to come back with updates, or to say thank you and maybe tells them a little about the type of people that regularly give up their time to post advice.  I know from experience that there are people I could count on to give good advice on a variety of topics and others that specialise or who have dogs with particular medical conditions etc.  Perhaps we could have an "About Me" section that gives a little more background about us?

I also think that most enquiries are from 'grown ups' who are more than able to read between the lines to find the information they need.  Not every person who replies has the skill to write a careful response and some are a bit rough around the edges BUT it's the content that matters not the bedside manner.  Lovely if you have both but that's a bit unrealistic!

Some very good suggestions dogs a babe.  I don't have time to consider and reply to all of them now but will respond to one very quickly

> Perhaps we could have an "About Me" section that gives a little more background about us? 

If you go to your Profile there is a section called "Miscellaneous". You can put whatever you want in there and when someone views your profile they will be able to read it. I will change the heading from "Miscellaneous" to "About Me" tomorrow.

Is there a way that you can permanently bump/pin some threads to the top of their boards so that the most common subjects that come up are right at the top of the section - many people rarely use search functions on forums or even notice they have one, the first thing most newbies do is head for the section that relates to what is on their mind and see if they can, at a glance, see if someone else has asked a similar question so they can read the answers - if they don't see it quick then they just post a new question/post.

If you could bump and pin some threads then it may stop some of the more common and make it easier for you to merge repeat threads into one when duplicates appear. I'm probably making this sound nutty as I've realised I'm really not good at explaining what's in my head - but what I mean is pinning threads at the top of the list of the relevant board and rename popular thread topics so they cant be missed by those not knowing where else to search/look. So in health you could have " to spay/neuter or not to spay/neuter" and "What do the members keep in their First Aid Box"  On the breeding forum "to breed or not to breed" or "Dangers of whelping"  and in Feeding "Raw v Dry" and "Weight control".  If that's possible that's probably more likely to get noticed by new people who are looking for information than blogs or articles or plain information sections because I think a lot of people sign into a forum with something particular on their mind and no patience or even thought to look anywhere except the main forum sections.

> Is there a way that you can permanently bump/pin some threads to the top of their boards so that the most common subjects that come up are right at the top of the section

Yes.

In the breeding board we have already have a FAQ thread which is pinned to the top of the board. There is a similar post in some, but not all of the other boards.

I will add a post to all the other boards and unlock them so members can suggest threads which they think should be added.

>For example the Champdogs Puppy Buyers Guide was created from the thoughts and opinions of forum members a few years ago and probably took me a week to write.

And in that guide you quote my suggestion..

" Don't buy a Puppy...buy a Breeder"
From that I mean one who has the puppy's best interest at heart, has experience perhaps, isn't interested in profit or 'fun' as their primary objective and who will be there for back up with that knowledge and experience.
I don't claim to have "Seen it all" ..just most of it

I think one of the most important comments to add to this is......your girl does NOT need to have a litter. I have had many enquiries to use my boys on girl because "they need to have a litter before they are spayed"

Needless to say, I have given them the advice but doubt if it has been followed. I have been accused of being a snob because I health test my dogs. Quote "only business breeders health test, I would rather go to the next door neighbour because it's cheaper to use their dog"