I hope to get my dogs health tests sorted early in the new year and he's fast approaching a year old so I need to start thinking about hip/elbow scoring. I'm after a bit of advice on a few points. He's done well in the champ shows he's been to so far (not so well in open shows, blind judges and all that), his conformation is good according to his breeder and dam's breeder, his general health is good, the only issue is he may be a carrier for one genetic condition and of course his hip/elbow scores, obviously if they aren't up to par I won't stud him, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself but I like to be prepared!

What's the best age to get them hip and elbow scored, I've heard differing opinions, some say 12 months, some say 18 months? To me 18 months when he's more likely to be fully developed sounds a better prospect. I presume you can have the hip and elbow x-rays done at the same time and this would be better as it's only general anesthetic?

Also, if he's clear of the one genetic problem he may be a carrier of and got good hip/elbow scores and I decide to stud him what should I be asking people who enquire about using him? I've got a long list myself but probably haven't thought of everything.

Just a heads up please don't use the term"studding"your dog, you can offer your dog at stud, but you do not"stud"your dog

In the UK you can get hips & elbows done at 12 months old, BTH even if they are done later, it will make little difference to the score. If he is a carrier of a genetic condition then he must only be allowed to be used on DNA normal bitches-no ifs ands or buts-to use him on a carrier bitch would IMHO be immoral & totally irresponsible. IHMO it depends on the seriousness of the genetic condition as to whether I would use a carrier dog(e.g. in BCs I would use a CEA carrier dog, but not a TNS or CL carrier-as TNS & CL are death sentences to affected dogs)

What is the rush to use him at stud ? Is he an outstanding example of his breed, does he have new bloodlines ? Is he an exceptionally good working dog ? When you say he has done well has he won or been highly placed in all his classes ? Were the judges all rounders or breed specialists

If someone wants to use him at stud, he should come from a line of low scoring dogs, not just his sire & dam but G parents & G G parents & GGG parents. In some breeds it is expected that every dog iin a 5 generation pedigree should be low scoring & well under the breed mean. The bitch should be the same from a low hip scoring pedigree, preferably DNA tested normal.

In order words he & the dogs behind any bitch he is used on should be "fit for purpose"

I believe we are talking BC here. My personal prefrence is about 18 months for hip scoring but it is just that a personal prefrence. Remember aswell as the DNA test for TNS  to establish his status he will also need to be clinically eyetested for PRA.

If he is a BC he should not be used until he is 2 years of age as he cannot be tested for PRA until then. Unless his parents are both DNA tested normal for CL/CEA/TNS he will need all three DNA tests doing ;-)

He is clear by parentage for CEA and CL I believe ;)
Edited to explain that I mean if its the pup I believe it to be.

Nods as good as a wink to a blind man Sandra

Cannot understand why anyone would want to start breeding from their dog before it was mature. Was he screened for colobomas that are not linked to CEA before he was 12 weeks old ??

I thought I wasn't allowed to mention breed, obviously got that upside down then!

He's CEA/CH and CL clear by parentage but his dam was a carrier for TNS so need to test for that.

I thought they could be screened for CPRA at 18 months?

What about MDR1?

> Cannot understand why anyone would want to start breeding from their dog before it was mature.

I don't believe I said anything about breeding from him before he was mature?

Yes many breeders are now taking advantage of the MDR 1 test aswell and it is worth doing. Mentioning breed is not allowed when talking about litters on the ground or potential matings but can be mentioned when advice requested can be breed specific.

> If he is a carrier of a genetic condition then he must only be allowed to be used on DNA normal bitches-no ifs ands or buts-to use him on a carrier bitch would IMHO be immoral & totally irresponsible. IHMO it depends on the seriousness of the genetic condition as to whether I would use a carrier dog(e.g. in BCs I would use a CEA carrier dog, but not a TNS or CL carrier-as TNS & CL are death sentences to affected dogs)

If he's a carrier he won't be offered at stud, full stop. Regardless of the condition I don't think mating a carrier to a carrier is responsible in a breed of such numerical size.

> What is the rush to use him at stud ?

Where is the rush? I am mearly asking about preparations, I am not even certain he will be offered, talk about reading between the lines.

I don`t own the same breed as you(I have owned long time ago) and you are being a responsible person in asking for advice now. Take what you need out of the replys and ignore the rest.

I agree, you have asked all the right questions and are doing all the right things.  I got my boy hipscored and eye tested at 12 months in preparation for the fact that someone might ask to use him at stud, thats not rushing anything, its being prepared and responsible.

Very well done for asking the questions now I say. Way too many people rush out and offer their dog for stud without asking advice or being prepared.

Take the good advice offered and I hope all works out well for you and your dog

Often an owner is asked to allow their dog to be used at stud when the dog is doing well in the show ring and is being admired.
Despite forward planning being the ideal situation, you may get a call from a bitch owner with a bitch just about to/ just has come into season and there would be insufficient time to do the relevent health testing - so your desire to have all this in place, before this happens, should be warmly congratulated.

CPRA cannot be tested for under the dog is 24 months old-don't know who has told you 18 months

My dogs are all tested for TNS/CL/CEA(CH)/MDR 1 & except for my oldest who is a CEA carrier & would only be used on a CEA(CH)normal bitch-not that I ever intend to breed from him)they are normal for all the conditions. I have some blood stored with Optigen for the CPRA DNA test when it becomes available-makes it a lot cheaper for testing.

It is only against the TOS if you were actually offering your dog at stud on the forum.

Was he screened before 12 weeks for colobomas that are not linked to CEA(CH)these do not yet have a DNA test available ?

Just because your dog is approaching 12 months there is no need to rush to get the hips/elbows scored as you cannot(as previously mentioned)get him BVA/ISDS/KC certified clinically free of PRA until he is 2 anyway. Your first post implied you were needing to get the tests done asap which is not the case with a year old BC

> I got my boy hipscored and eye tested at 12 months in preparation for the fact that someone might ask to use him at stud, thats not rushing anything, its being prepared and responsible.

But in the case of any breed with CPRA dogs should not be used at stud before they are two anyway so wanting all the tests except one in place at 12 months is IMHO rushing. I'm all for DNA testing as early as possible(they can actually be done on weaned puppies by buccal swabs-so could be done whilst still with the breeder) but for the clinical tests there are time limts before which the tests cannot be done.

Of course breeds with CPRA dogs have to be tested yearly so that they are always tested with 12 months of puppies being born & the mating carried out

>> If he's a carrier he won't be offered at stud, full stop. Regardless of the condition I don't think mating a carrier to a carrier is responsible in a breed of such numerical size.

I never mentioned that I would use a carrier on a carrier of CEA, but the breeding rules of the ISDS(stricter that the KC)is that they will register puppies from a carrier to normal as long as the puppies are DNA screened-the puppies cannot be registered until they are DNA tested from these matings. Normal to normal litters are registered as are CEA clinically clear to CEA clinically clear as long as neither dog or bitch has produced a CEA affected puppy from a previous mating

> But in the case of any breed with CPRA dogs should not be used at stud before they are two anyway so wanting all the tests except one in place at 12 months is IMHO rushing.

Hi MM, I don't have this breed as you know or in depth knowledge of it's health conditions but surely anyone taking the time and puting in the expense of health testing on a 'maybe' basis is to be respected - even if still too early for all tests to be done?  For eg, if the hips are poor then the owner may decide to go no further expense wise because the dog would not be used whereas doing tests which are available in the early stages will keep the outlays spread out a little for the owner also :)

If a dog fails a test at say £30 (eyes for example) why then go on to pay for hips at say £150 ?  I don't think it's rushing simply because the dog is within the minimum age bracket of tests required for a breed - it may just be financially the better option....

I would always & have always fully health tested my dogs even if they are never used at stud, the only way to get the correct health status of a breed is for as many dogs as possible to be health tested. Not to have the eyes tested because the hips are brilliant isn't the way I would go or vica versa. Only by maximizing the data base will the breeds be able to move forth with health issues

I wouldn't doubt for a second that you do these things but being realistic not everyone is able to afford these measures and IMO it is better that anyone interested in potentially breeding from their dog or bitch at least starts taking steps in the right direction. 

If they cannot afford to do everything at say 2 years + because that is a minimum age for certain tests then is it not better they break these expenses up into manageable amounts?  And, being realistic, should we expect everyone with a dog which falls short of the ideal on one test to continue paying out for more if they have no intention of breeding their dog?  In the current financial climate I personally think definitely not which is why I used the eye test -v- hip score example (doubtless across breeds there are many more which could crop up :) )  At least (using this example) the eye results, failed or passed, would be documented and contribute to the stats for the breed.

In an ideal world every dog of every breed would be health tested, regardless of plans for it being included in the gene pool because of course it's important for the breed to have the biggest possible picture of all issues but that is not realistic - regardless of personal opinions.

regards Teri

The latest BVA publication on eye testing available Here Does say it is possible to detect CPRA from 12 months old on occasion but that it is more usual to make a diagnosis from 18 months.

Thanks to those that have read this post as intended not presumed that I am rushing into things, I have never said that I want to offer him at stud anytime soon.

> CPRA cannot be tested for under the dog is 24 months old-don't know who has told you 18 months

The Border Collie Club of Great Britain states 18 months.

> Was he screened before 12 weeks for colobomas that are not linked to CEA(CH)these do not yet have a DNA test available ?

I don't believe so, is there a way that can be tested for now?

No it's too late now, has to be done before the dog is 12 weeks of age, the ISDS still recommend screening puppies even if they are CEA clear by parentage.

I would still not eye test until two years of age, the ISDS have been doing eye testings for far longer that the KC & I would prefer to get all the other health tests done first & eye test as per the ISDS advice & their rules

I do feel that people are using dogs far too early & before dogs are fully mature. The older the dog the less likely it is to alter it's behaviour pattern

> I wouldn't doubt for a second that you do these things but being realistic not everyone is able to afford these measures and IMO it is better that anyone interested in potentially breeding from their dog or bitch at least starts taking steps in the right direction.

Well I'm of the opinion(probably different to everyone else on here)that if you cannot afford the health tests then you won't be in a position to take back, run on etc the dogs that you have produced whether as a breeder or a stud dog owner & to delay the hips in order to save money if the eye test is unacceptable, then it will probably coat you more in the long run as costs go up. Just me being me I suppose. My BC stud dog was never available to KC reg bitches & I was very selective &  even 20 odd years ago insisted on the bitches being hip scored before being mated to my dog-a very very new idea for the shepherds & farmers who used him !

As for being unrealistic well that's how is happens with GSDs in Germany

Yes but you're also of the opinion that even dogs never meant for breeding should have all health tests done - so a breeder has a litter, from health tested parents which are worked or shown etc, 3 go on to other breeders/show goers etc and 7 go endorsed as pets, most end up being neutered.  Should the seven pet owners invest several hundred pounds a head to provide the breed and breeder with stats?  Great if they could, unlikely they would, and definitely IMO not something they ought to feel they 'should'!

You're speaking as a dyed in the wool dog person who does, has, or will again breed, compete etc.  Not everyone has aspirations that match yours, mine or anyone else regularly contributing here.  Would I pay for all of the pups I've bred that went to pet homes to be fully health tested -NO, I couldn't afford it and I'm not strapped for cash but like most folks work within reasonable limits in relation to what comes in :)  If I got every pet dog back could I afford to look after them - DANG RIGHT!  There's a difference between taking responsibility for pups bred and taking on the mantle of 'stats provider'

> As for being unrealistic well that's how is happens with GSDs in Germany

No, it's not MM.  That may be what happens with dogs definitely intended for breeding programs, however the OP is not yet sure whether this is something they want to do and in any event our economy is not remotely the same as that of Germany (certainly not immediately before the current global recession) so it's immaterial what anyone does there as far as this particular poster (or me!) is concerned :)

Im with you 100% Teri !

I have two dogs, Alfie is my show boy and has been used at stud therefore he has had all health tests done.  My other boy is mon-orchid, because I wanted him as an agility dog when he went in to have his retained testicle operation I got the vet to x-ray his hips and spine to make sure he was ok to do agility. I have no intention of getting him hipscored as I wont be using him for breeding.

> I do feel that people are using dogs far too early & before dogs are fully mature. The older the dog the less likely it is to alter it's behaviour pattern

Fair enough, but that's not me. Like I've said the first thing is the TNS test, and CL despite him being clear by parentage, if that's all good then Hips/Elbows at 18 months and eye screening, MDR1, CEA/CH and BAER after that. There's no rush, I just want to be prepared and have in my mind what needs doing.

I won't be allowing him to cover any old bitch either, I do have morals which I thought I put across in my original post, obviously not though.

> Well I'm of the opinion(probably different to everyone else on here)that if you cannot afford the health tests then you won't be in a position to take back, run on etc the dogs that you have produced

why not MM? its rather easier to shell out for dog food each week and insurance than to give out a couple of hundred in one go. and of course you can save it but some people find saving hard (confessions of a christmas nutter :))

> obviously if they aren't up to par I won't stud him, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself but I like to be prepared!
>

I think you put this across perfectly.  It certainly didn't read (to me), that you were rushing in to anything.

Just thought I would let you all know that in light of a recent illness one of his brothers suffered and a lack of hip scoring and eye screening in his dam I have decided not to offer him at stud or use him in my own breeding although I do still intend to have him hip scored and eye screened at some point.

Very sensible indeed - and at least if you have him hip scored & eye screened, then it all adds to the breed's statistics.

He sounds absolutely wonderful - and none the less for coming out of the future gene pool!

Well done ClaireyS--I took my WSS lad in two weeks ago for exactly the same surgery and asked to have him hip scored because I want to work him. I got a load of grief from the vet who wanted him castrated, and who did everything she could to dissuade me from having him hip scored. She may have assumed she was dealing with a dodgy customer hoping to use him anyway at stud (!!!) but having been to this practice for many years  I will not now be going again.

As I gleaned from your original posts, a very sensible dog owner. :-)