Hi everybody. I just joined today and am having some problems with my springer spaniel. He only responds to commands for food rewards. He bites us sometimes when we stroke or groom him and if we sit on the floor. He also goes nuts when he sees other dogs and bites them if he can get near enough. We have tried ignoring him, removing him, leaving the room, yelping etc., nothing works. I just read the thread about how to be alpha by the rottie owner and I never knew that tickling under the chin is submissive! I always thought it was the opposite. Our dog loves us to tickle under his chin and I do it every morning when I get up! Is this true? He is neutered, 13 months old and we have had him for 3 months. He was a stray so we have no history. Can anyone help? Thanks

Hi Springer Mania

I do mean to sound condascending (sp?) but have you attended any basic training classes with him. The socialisation aspect for the dog, will be very rewarding, and if you can get into a "fun" group will make training easier too..:D

Natasha

Welcome,
I have to agree with Nat on the training bit :) I saw your other thread as 'guest' and really think that the dog needs basic obedience training.

Trust me, chucking or tickling your dog under the chin is not at the root of all of your problems :) :D I think I told Rottie that it was the first time that I've ever come across that theory. I do it to mine daily too and well, they're definitely happy obedient dogs (most of the time :rolleyes: :) Also a Rottie and a spaniel have different purposes and attitudes towards life. What might work for one, may not work for another.

Your dog is 13 months old... well into his adolescence. You've had him for only 3 months so he changed owners probably due to the same reasons that you're having trouble with him. He was probably a sweet puppy and then became too much of a teenager for his first owners to live with :rolleyes: It happens so often.
If you can get some good training and consistency in his life now, you will have a wonderful pet. :) Search around on various threads here. There's a lot of good advice.

BUT if this is your first time in dealing with a dog who is having behavioral problems, get some help (in person). It's easy to get confused on what to do if you don't have experience. There's also usually a combination of factors/interaction which tend to work as observed rather than trying to write it on the internet. If you put your region/county in, there might be others on here who can reccomend a good trainer for you.
hth.
good luck,
toodles

Thanks you two, but he has been to training classes. He just went totally mental each time. While the other dogs were doing the lessons, he just spazzed out on the end of his lead. The trainer brought a pup round to greet all the dogs and mine went to bite the pups nose. All the other dogs greeted the pup OK, even a staffy bitch who had been brought to the class BECAUSE she had problems with other dogs. After two classes he got a skin condition which the vet said might be sarcoptic mange so he couldn't go anymore (I still went so I could pick up tips). Now the other dogs are all walking to heel and behaving well, I couldn't face taking him. I live in a small village and we only have the one training class. He has been to see a behaviourist but we have only just started to implement her methods. We are probably expecting too much too soon. He is our first dog, so we are not at all doggy. I'll continue to read these pages and maybe he will improve in time. thanks

That's too bad about his mange problems... 2 times does not a training course make :rolleyes: Even though he acted up both times, no one can predict how he would have turned out in 2 months with consistent training and socialization :) Despite you attending on your own, you wouldn't have been able to be corrected in person by the course instructor.

If you don't mind my asking, what did the behavioralist recommend for you to do?
best wishes,
toodles

Hi eoghania, I wasn't saying that two classes was a training course. He has missed the last 8 weeks due to the suspected mange and as he goes beserk when he sees other dogs I can't see him catching up on 8 weeks work. The behaviourist's instructions were quite complicated and I couldn't post them on here without taking up about 10 pages! He has to stay on a 6ft line at all times, indoors and out. If he doesn't obey commands we are to make him do it using the line. He musn't be shown food before a command. (The trouble is with him, if you don't show food he doesn't do anything you say. Have a treat in your hand and he puts on a show winning display of obedience indoors.) Also, treats don't work outside when he sees another dog (or any other animal/person), he is 100% focussed on the distraction. He musn't go through doors before us (we were doing that anyway). Loads of other stuff, we are trying to teach him the command "leave it", sometimes he obeys, sometimes he doesn't. I know I sound totally incompetent, sometimes I think he is cleverer than us. *sigh*

Hi SM

I know its probably a right pain, but I would try and take him back to the classes, it is a nightmare if you've missed so many weeks. But they must be starting a new class for new people soon, why not go when that one starts, and you will be at the same level as the new people again. Don't worry about what people say or think, at the end of the day he is a RESCUE dog, and is learning a little late in life, but the more he goes, the more he will get used to seeing all the other dogs and he WILL eventually settle down. My friend has a cocker (competely nuts) hes now 18 months and still a handful. But she had the same thing, he was going loopy and barking his head off every bloomin second he was in that room. But eventually he did start to calm down, it just takes patience, a lot of it, and if your not really sure of his history, you dont really know what has been going on with him before.

Just a quick note on training with food., I used to carry a little treat in my hand, and when my dogs did something well, they had a treat. They soon learn that when they have done something good, they get a reward., if he has walked nicely on the lead, even a few paces, praise him lots and give him a treat., YOU WILL GET THERE, :D

I hope that helps a little...:D And it is just my opinion of course :D

Nat

You are right Crazy Cockers, I will probably wait for the next class in the new year. Thanks for your post. I think it helps for someone to say, "don't worry, it'll be alright eventually!". As first time owners we probably worry about his behaviour far too much. No doubt a lot of his problems are our fault anyway. I'm just a bit fed up with getting bitten.

SM

They are NOT your fault...the odds are always going to be stacked against you right from the start, as you don't know his history, especially as he was a stray, you don't know how long he had been one for. It is going to take a good long while, and will be hard, but VERY rewarding in the long run. Take your time with him, and every time he does something good reward him. He will soon get the message, that if he is good he will get a treat...spaniels are greedy bug*ers so this will help !!! :D

Good luck and don't worry about it too much, you are probably stressed before you even do any training :D

But get yourself booked onto thosed classes when they start up again ..... someone I did training with had a shar pei and he was such a handful!! She did the puppy course 3 times (which is a 12 week course :D) and all of the rest of us came and went, and she was still doing the puppy class (lol), but now her dog is fab, she did go from a normal lead to a halti, and this helped immensly, maybe try a halti on him for a while. He wont like it to begin with, and will be trying to get it off at every opportunity !!

Sorry to go on again...:D Good luck !! :D

Nat

Also something that hasn't been clarified. Is his biting of the vicious I want to hurt you kind, or would you say it is misdirected over excited rough play behaviour. If it is the former it is rather serious.

Oops, Springer,
I didn't intend to make you feel bad, sorry :( It just was my impression that because he went nuts during those two classes you were giving up hope on his behavior. It would have surprised me if he had been calm and quiet around those other dogs. If he was the 'perfect' dog for his first owners, it's unlikely they would ever have given him up. They allowed bad habits to continue and they piled up. Now you have to sort it all out.... and you will...eventually :D

Yep, as Nat says, he's a rescue dog and it's going to take a lot of time and patience on your part. It could even be six months without a single bit of improvement and then suddenly, everything is settled overnight. Or it could be gradual stages of noticeable improvement.
Try not to compare his behavior with other dogs....trust me, their owners have problems of their own :rolleyes: :) Everyone does in some way ;)
It sounds as if the behavioralist has some good suggestions. The reason I asked is that there have been some really wacky advice given to some people on here. :(

The 'treating' him bit is controversial...especially since he pays NO attn to you without the food. BUT you have to gain his attn. in the first place for him to care about your commands...so it's a two -edged sword imo. Perhaps someday you can work it into a haphazard type of reward system so that he never knows if he's going to get something.

Recalling off leash or in public with other distractions is will be one of your greatest difficulties. Just remember to try not to set him up for failure and you for discouragement by trusting him for something he's not ready for.
hth--- I'm not trying to lecture you...just raise your spirits, give you some hope, and some ideas. :)
good luck,
toodles

hi - sorry to hear all your troubles - the other posters have given you good advice, and i too feel that perservering (sp) with the classes will pay off :) just an added idea that may help with the focusing on you I thought may help - my Golden retriever, although not aggressive, would run off to see other people and dogs if she got the chance and would not focus on me, and certainly couldn't of cared less if I was waving a leg of lamb in her face! I found that a ball on a rope, kept just for training and walking out, switched her on, she was only allowed to play with it when she did something for me (it replaced the treats) and on walks she only focused on the toy, and when it was going to be thrown for her - so she watch me the whole time, obviously this worked well for her because she already bought back anything thrown for her to start with, so she knew for the game to continue she had to return the toy back to me. after a few weeks of training with the toy, I kept it in my left pocket on walks and bought it out at random intervals to throw for her, thus making her watch me the whole time waiting for the game to start! this toy was kept with her lead hanging up. she was not allowed access to it unless I let her - so it became to prize to work for. My Springer also has his own toy which is used in the same fashion, on walks all he wants to do is retrieve his toy! I know you have more issues than this to deal with - does he bite you with vicious intent or is it over rough play as someone else has asked? hope this helped in some way - julie:)

hi again springermania, just had an idea - why don't you have a word with springer rescue they have a good website - have a look at it - it gives lots of info on springers and contact details - they are experts on the breed and may give you some extra tips, www.springerrescue.org.uk julie:)

Thanks everybody! I'm not one bit upset by anybody's post, I'm grateful that you all took the time to help. Now I'm going to sound like an idiot but I don't know if he is being vicious or not, as he is my first dog. When my partner gets ready to take him out for a walk, he jumps up and bites, yelps and growls and I thought this was over-excitement (he applies some pressure, but doesn't break skin). But the other biting is weird, he does it if we sit at his level (ie, on the floor) or sometimes when we're brushing or drying him, again he doesn't break the skin but there is definite pressure. He sometimes lies on his back wriggling and shows the whites of his eyes and growls or bites his blanket and if we touch him while he does this, he snaps at us. I just read this back and I sound like a dork. Can it be vicious biting if he never breaks the skin? The only time he bit me really hard was when I was trying to take a mussel shell out of his mouth, which he was munching on. He mouths our trouser bottoms a lot too. Sorry to keep going on! Thanks again for all your replies, I'm touched (no jokes please! lol).

Most of what he's doing sounds like he's playing and that he's never been taught that hands are not to be mouthed.

Some of it is control -- pant legs -- he's trying to direct you.
Not sure about him being on his back. Hard to visualize. I wonder if there was a cat in his past home since cats sometimes get very physical when the 'play.'

Perhaps talking with someone from the rescue or even a breed club might help to get a better idea of what is "normal behavior" for him.

The one disturbing point is The only time he bit me really hard was when I was trying to take a mussel shell out of his mouth, which he was munching on.

It's not the 'hard bite' situation, its that he resisted you in the first place. It was a definite dominant maneuver saying that you didn't have the 'authority' to take away his 'stuff'. Where your behavioralist is saying to have him "sit" before you give him his dinner ---relates to this. He's been in charge too long.

It would be good practice if once you give him his dinner bowl, to take it away several times while he is eating. Tell him "leave it" and then "Sit".
Sure, he'll get annoyed at you. You're exerting authority that he has gained over his life. Anticipate a possible physical reaction the first time you do this. I'd have to say that if he bites you, a firm smack on the nose while he's doing it plus a serious sharp "NO", is an appropriate response on your part. :rolleyes:

If you can get him to be reliable on the dinner bowl, then start working it up to other possessions and food.

I don't know how you are playing with him, but make it so that hands are a definite no-no area for him to mouth or even touch. It's easier to do a complete hands off than an if/then situation :)
hth.
good luck,
toodles

The rolling about on his back with his blanket sounds like playing to me, my Beardie boy does this with a toy and I can lean down and join in, rub his belly, take toy etc. But I can see how if your boy has never learnt to play nicely with people he could come in too hard and get over excited. I control toys and treats with my dogs but I started when they were little and they learnt from very young.
Could you try to have a special toy which you play with together, I would keep him on lead at first so he can't run off with it. Give him the toy then exchange for it for a titbit or another toy, keep it very quiet, if he learns to play with you nicely it may help him learn to be calmer. If he gets OTT just stop game and put toy away. To start with all you really want to do is pass it between you and him.
Don't know if this is really any help but may combine with advice about waiting for food someone else gave
Anne

Thanks you two, I'll give your advice a go. :)

HI there,

Just trying to help with the treat stuff......as an example, if you ask him to sit and he will only do it if you show him a treat, try this:

Ask for a Sit

He refuses.

Show him the treat. Put it away/hide it.

Ask for a Sit.

He refuses.

Show him the treat. Put it away. Ask for a Sit.

(Hopefully he will Sit - or will offer this behaviour eventually, after a few frustrating times.)

Praise and treat.

Practiced lots of times the dog gets the message that he has to do stuff for YOU before any reward - in other words, he has to EARN his treat.

Re the food thing, try adding food to his bowl - so say, give him a tablespoon full of food at normal meal time then when he has finished it, add a bit more - if he growls as you go towards the bowl, do not add the food. Just show it to him and walk away. Then try adding it to his bowl again :) I'm trying to be succinct here (not my strong point) but basically the idea is to get him to like you near his bowl, and to welcome your presence.

Later when trust has been built up, teach the Leave with toys etc, then eventually you will be able to ask for a Leave with bones, bowls, or whatever. Hopefully the trainer or behaviourist will help here too :)

Have you tried a few good and helpful, commonsense books? "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey is a godsend, commonsense advice, and also there are several good books on Rescue Dogs...take a look at www.crosskeysbooks.com

JMO and good luck :)

LIndsay