You are basically right, Astarte.

We refer to a homozygous ridged dog as RR, a ridgeless dog as rr and a heterozygous ridged dog as Rr - most of our current ridged dogs are Rr, as demonstrated by the fact that ridgeless pups are produced pretty often.  It is easy to prove that a dog is heterozygous for the ridge if it is bred from and produces ridgeless at some point, but not so easy to prove that it is homozygous.  You can infer that a dog is homozygous if it doesn't produce ridgeless to a known carrier of ridgeless - but it might just have been lucky. 

So RR to RR - all pups ridged and RR
RR to Rr - all pups ridged but 1/2 carriers of r (ridgeless gene)
Rr to Rr - 1/4 RR, half Rr and 1/4 rr (ridgeless)
Rr to rr - 1/2 ridged, but carrying r gene, and 1/2 ridgeless

Jemima,
With regard to the information you have published about Ridgebacks, can you please reveal your sources?  I am sure that as a good journalist you will have more than one copperbottomed source too. Clearly it would be irresponsible, bad journalism to publish without a minimum of two, impeccable, first-hand sources.   

The inheritence of the ridge sounds like the inheritence of black or liver in dals, with black being the dominant colour.

> "WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?   STATE IT!!!  GIVE IT PROVENANCE!!!

I am happy to provide references. The figures for dermoid sinus incidence come from the researcher the RR Club is funding - Nicolette Salmon Hillbertz.

http://diss-epsilon.slu.se/archive/00001669/01/Salmon_Hillbertz.pdf

It's not a huge sample hence why we qualified it with "about one in 10". It might be overstated - it might be understated. I hope the film will encourage breeders/breed clubs to start keeping proper records/databases in order to be more sure about the incidence.

Please remember that personal anecdote, while interesting, is not reliable evidence. If you toss a coin 100 times, it will come out about 50 heads and 50 tails. But within that, it's perfect possible to get a run of 15 heads.

As for where my evidence is that dermoid pups are PTS, here's the advice on the RR Club's website:

"The Club recommends puppies with Dermoid Sinus are euthanased as soon as the problem is detected."

Actually, some do choose to operate on these dogs. If the sinus is superficial it can be very successful - but the advice is still to put these puppies to sleep because of the risks associated with DS. We interviewed the Chair of the RR Club who was anxious at the insistence that the KC wanted any mention of culling removed for the CofE because it would also include these DS pups that may go on to suffer.  I see they've now got round this, in respect of DS pups, by stating it elsewhere. (This not a criticism - I think on balance it probably is kinder to put these pups to sleep; I'd just prefer that they weren't born in the first place - something that could be avoided by breeding with ridgeless.)

The inheritance of the ridge is nice, straight forward Mendelian genetics with simple dominant and recessive.  The inheritance of the sinus is not so straight forward - either being multi-factorial or dominant with incomplete penetrance.  We're awaiting the results of the sinus project.

As a matter of interest, the lady doing the research, Nicolette, was surprised to hear that I had both ridgeless and sinus in the same litter (one of each).  There are several types of sinus, 6 categories if I remember correctly.  My pup had what used to be called a tail base sinus, now referred to as an LTF, and is in a different category from the other types of sinus.  It was not operated on and caused the bitch no problems at all in her life.

glad i've not forgotten everything then :)

so is the dodgy coding that produces the problem carried on the same gene as the ridged alliel?

> something that could be avoided by breeding with ridgeless

but as discussed it wouldn't. it might reduce frequency but it would not remove it.

is there a DNA test for RR or Rr or rr

> The majority of RR breeders were totally misrepresented by that programme.  Neither I nor any of my friends have EVER culled ridgeless puppies.

I am delighted to hear it - and we did make the point in the film that many breeders do now prefer to neuter their ridgeless dogs rather than put them to sleep. But the fact remains that until the KC wrote, horrified, to the RR Club in February, after we alerted them to the culling issue, the RR's Code of Ethics insisted that "ridgeless dogs shall be culled" (with an addendum that if breeders found this morally impossible they should neuter them instead).

The people we interviewed in our film were not just any old breeders - it was people very well known in the breed, including the Chair of the Club and Ann Woodrow, who is author of:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rhodesian-Ridgeback-Ann-Woodrow/dp/0951140809

When challenged by the KC, the RR Club responded to say that they would change the wording from "shall" be culled, to "may" be culled because it felt strongly that breeders should maintain the right to euthanase ridgeless dogs.

Your ire is misplaced. If you don't think ridgeless dogs are culled, take it to the breed club and insist that attitudes are changed there - or complain to the small number of vets who will still do it. Although we've probably done that bit for you.

> is there a DNA test for RR or Rr or rr

There is a DNA test that will distinguish RR/Rr from rr - but not yet one that will distinguish RR from Rr. Doesn't sound like it will be long, though, having talked to the researchers - who, incidentally, recently issued this statement:

Uppsala September 24, 2008

To whom it may concern

A statement concerning the genetic basis for the hair ridge and the congenital malformation dermoid sinus in Rhodesian Ridgeback dogs

It has come to our attention that the recent World Congress of the Rhodesian Ridgeback Association has left some uncertainty concerning the genetic basis for the hair ridge and the dermoid sinus in Rhodesian Ridgeback dogs. We would therefore like to clarify our views on this subject and its implications for breeding.

1. The inheritance of the Ridge

All our data and all data we are aware of indicate that the ridge is inherited as a fully dominant trait. The dominant allele causing the ridge is denoted R whereas the recessive wild type-allele is denoted r. This means that a ridged dog may either be homozygous (R/R) or heterozygous (R/r) for the Ridge allele whereas all ridgeless dogs should be homozygous r/r for the normal allele. The result presented in our Nature Genetics paper from 2007 (Hillbertz et al. Nature Genetics 39:1318-1320) provided conclusive evidence that the mutation causing the ridge in Rhodesian Ridgeback as well as in Thai Ridgeback dogs is a 133 kb duplication on dog chromosome 18. [A duplication means that each Ridge chromosome has two copies of this 133 kb fragment whereas a normal chromosome has only a single copy. It is this doubling or duplication of the chromosome region that constitutes the Ridge mutation.] So far all tested dogs with the characteristic dorsal hair ridge have been heterozygous or homozygous for this mutation whereas all ridgeless dogs we have tested lacked the duplication. The duplication contains four complete genes (FGF3, FGF4, FGF19 and ORAOV1) and we assume that it is the higher than normal expression of one or more of these genes, attributable to their greater number, that leads to the development of the hair ridge.

2. The genetic basis for dermoid sinus (DS)

DS does not have such a simple inheritance as the Ridge but our data clearly showed that the Ridge mutation (i.e. the duplication described above) is the major risk factor for the DS malformation in Rhodesian Ridgeback dogs. Most DS dogs in our study were homozygous R/R (10 of 12) for the Ridge mutation but two were classified as heterozygous R/r. However, DS or DS-like malformations also occur in humans so it is possible that this type of malformation may occur in dogs in the absence of the Ridge mutation. But its frequency in unridged Ridgebacks should be as rare as it is in non-ridged breeds.

3. DNA tests

In our Nature Genetics paper we described a simple DNA test that can be used to identify the presence of the Ridge mutation (the duplication). Any DNA laboratory skilled in the art of DNA testing can perform this test and there is no patent protecting its use. It is therefore easy to distinguish a ridged dog (R/R or R/r) from a ridgeless dog (r/r) by the DNA test but we have not yet established a diagnostic test that on a routine basis can distinguish animals that are heterozygous carriers (R/r) from homozygous ridged (R/R) with 100% certainty. The establishment of this test will require some further research.

4. Recommendations for breeding

The most straightforward way of reducing the incidence of DS in Rhodesian Ridgeback dogs is to reduce the frequency of homozygotes for the Ridge mutation. This can be accomplished by allowing the use of ridgeless dogs for breeding. While we are aware that dogs with a DS are not usually kept for breeding, matings between homozygous (R/R) ridged dogs (presumably without DS) and ridgeless dogs (r/r) would give progeny all of which would be heterozygous ridged (R/r) and therefore show ridging, and the incidence of DS would be low. In matings between a heterozygous ridged dog (R/r) and a ridgeless dog (r/r), 50% are expected to be heterozygous ridged (R/r) and 50% are expected to be ridgeless (r/r). In these matings no homozygous ridged progeny, which are the major problem as regards the incidence of dermoid sinus, would occur. It should therefore be possible to retain the ridge while keeping the incidence of DS to its absolute minimum. It would be useful to develop a diagnostic test to distinguish carriers (R/r) from homozygotes (R/R) because this would allow breeders to avoid matings such as R/R x R/r that will produce homozygous ridged (R/R) progeny.

It will of course be up to the individual breeders and to Ridgeback breeding organizations to decide whether they prefer to keep the Ridge and minimize the incidence of DS using the approach described above or whether they would like to completely eliminate the problem with DS by allowing the Ridge mutation to disappear from the population over time. If one decides to eliminate the Ridge mutation it should not be done too quickly (during a few generations) since that will lead to increased inbreeding in the breed as too many potential breeding animals are eliminated.

Acknowledgement: We would like to thank Bruce Cattanach for valuable discussions on this subject.

Leif Andersson1, Kerstin Lindblad-Toh1,2 and Göran Andersson3

1Department of Medical Biochemistry and Microbiology, Uppsala University, Box 597, SE-751 24 Uppsala, Sweden.

2Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT, 7 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02142, USA.

3Department of Animal Breeding and Genetics, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences (SLU), Biomedical centre, Box 597, SE-751 24 Uppsala, Sweden.

Thank you for responding to my point, Jemima. In response:

However, you still left the general public with the impression that all RR breeders culled their ridgeless puppies.

The Kennel Club has always had copies of the RR Club of GB's Code of Ethics - all clubs are required to send their CofEs to the KC. 

I don't see it as an insistence to cull ridgeless puppies if the option of homing them and neutering them is given.

Jemima,just to illustrate the impression some of the GP got from watching your PDE-a couple of my salon customers came in the day after the programme was screened to say how disgusting it was that RR breeders put down the healthy puppies(with no ridge) and only bred from the unhealthy ones with "spina bifida."I had to explain that was not the case at all-and that no breeder would breed from a dog with dermoid sinus and responsible breeders were health testing and no caring breeder would ever cull a ridgeless puppy.

I'm really sad to say that this is now a common misconception.

Jemima, you state that "KC wrote, horrified, to the RR Club in February,"

The programme came out in September/October?    Do you not think, as a reputable producer, you should have made the public aware that the KC had taken steps SOME SIX MONTHS PRIOR TO THE TELEVISING OF THE PROGRAMME?   A simple comment about dates should have sufficed.

"Most DS dogs in our study were homozygous R/R (10 of 12) for the Ridge mutation but two were classified as heterozygous R/r."

Interesting, and perhaps an indicator - but hardly statistically significant

I think my personal statistics for the percentage of sinus affected puppies born are actually more valid than those figures (2 puppies out of 78 - over more than 20 years)!

Please do not think that I am callous and cold hearted about the sinus - I am not at all.

>There is a DNA test that will distinguish RR/Rr from rr

If R (ridged) is dominant to r (ridgeless), then why the need for a DNA test? Surely the evidence is there in front of your eyes - the dog is either ridged or not.

that was an interesting read. a couple of queries though.

firstly, why is this breed on the 'watch' list if there exists no dna test at present that shows whether a dog is RR or Rr? if there is no way to tell if a dog is homo or hetrogenous for the ridge you cannot control breeding to reduce dermoid (At the moment at least). they have a DNA test to see if there is a ridge mutation but that will exist in either phenotype. and frankly its probably easier and cheaper to look at it and say, ah- thats a ridge.

since there is no test how do they expect, at present, breeders to alter breeding programs to reduce homogenous dogs being mated?

>> <IMG alt=confused src="/images/confused.gif"> If R (ridged) is dominant to r (ridgeless), then why the need for a DNA test? Surely the evidence is there in front of your eyes - the dog is either ridged or not.

lol exactly

i think it was probably developed in the hope it will tak them to a RR test but right now its useless

And "culling" does not mean PTS, it also can mean neutering as it simply means removing from the gene pool.

If customers ask advice on where to get a puppy from I always advise them to contact the breed club(s) and to make sure the parents have had all the relevant health checks(of course!).Someone asked me a few weeks ago where to go for a Cavalier,I said to contact the Cavalier club and explained the importance of heart testing and MRI scanning,well she said "But I thought it was the show bred ones which were unhealthy".Anyway she ignored my advice and brought her new puppy in to show me(which she had found via a puppy website),the pups breeder had told her the parents were unrelated so the puppies would be healthy and the pups were all checked by a vet and none of them had heart problems.Oh yes,I should have known she would ignore my advice.The pup doesn't look very much like a cavalier either,very skinny and leggy.
Someone else phoned me shortly after the PDE programme to say sadly his Cavalier had just been put down at the age of 9 with "heart problems" and he finished with saying "the Kennel club have a lot to answer for-they were responsible for my dog dying".Er no,people who don't health test have a lot to answer for.
There must be some way of educating people about responsible breeding-something that the PDE programme failed to do.

"If R (ridged) is dominant to r (ridgeless), then why the need for a DNA test? Surely the evidence is there in front of your eyes - the dog is either ridged or not."

Because a ridged dog can either be homozygous for the ridge RR, that is it carries both alleles for the ridge, or it can be heterozygous for the ridge, Rr, it carries one gene for the ridge and one ridgeless gene.  Since the R (ridged) gene is dominant, the dog will have a ridge, but it will carry the ridgeless gene.  Most of our current population are Rr as is shown by the production of ridgeless puppies from ridged parents.

>>If R (ridged) is dominant to r (ridgeless), then why the need for a DNA test?
>Because a ridged dog can either be homozygous for the ridge RR

Yes, I realise that - just as a BB (black) dal can only pass on black to his/her offspring and a Bb (also black) dal can pass on black or liver. You don't need a DNA test to distinguish between BB/Bb (blacks) and bb (livers). You just look.

A DNA test to distinguish between BB (black) and Bb (black) would be interesting, in the same way that a test between RR (ridged) and Rr (ridged) would be useful.

Sorry, JG, misunderstood you :)

>

> Thank you for responding to my point, Jemima. In response:
>
> However, you still left the general public with the impression that all RR breeders culled their ridgeless puppies.
>
> The Kennel Club has always had copies of the RR Club of GB's Code of Ethics - all clubs are required to send their CofEs to the KC. 
>
> I don't see it as an insistence to cull ridgeless puppies if the option of homing them and neutering them is given.

I can see why some viewers might have got the impression that the pups were culled - I think people were just so shocked that the ridgeless pups were culled at all. Nevertheless we did include these qualifying commentary lines:

1) : "the Club supports those who prefer to neuter their ridgeless dogs rather than destroy them"
2) "Neutering them instead is also allowed"
3) "Culling puppies because they don't meet the Kennel Club breed standard is not, perhaps, as common as it used to be"

Re the Code of Ethics - I know and, as you may remember, the Chair of the Club said in the film that the CofEs are ratified by the KC.  The KC doesn't agree with the Club, you or me on this point. In their complaints to Ofcom/the BBC, they argue that they do not "ratify" CofEs (ergo, presumably, that they are not in any way responsible for the culling of healthy puppies...) Given that all Club rules + regs and any changes thereto have to be submitted to the KC, I think you and I might agree at least on this small point -  that this is a question of semantics.

The central point here is that some puppies ARE culled for purely cosmetic reasons and in this day and age that is not acceptable. It sounds like we agree on this, too.

I do believe it's the older diehards who are sticking their heels in on this issue - but they are powerful older diehards.  This we found repeated in many breed clubs (the weighing of miniature dachshunds/acceptability of an outcross to rid dals of the uric acid problem for which they are homozygous etc).

Where we probably part company is over the desirability of the ridgeless. For me, it would make perfect sense, now the health risks of the ridge are known, to rename the breed the Rhodesian Lion Dog and cherish both ridged and ridgeless. Incidentally, I have heard this morning that the KC has removed mention of the ridge in the new breed standard. I would not be welcome, but boy would I like to be a fly on the wall at the next committee meeting.

> Because a ridged dog can either be homozygous for the ridge RR, that is it carries both alleles for the ridge, or it can be heterozygous for the ridge, Rr, it carries one gene for the ridge and one ridgeless gene.&nbsp; Since the R (ridged) gene is dominant, the dog will have a ridge, but it will carry the ridgeless gene.&nbsp; Most of our current population are Rr as is shown by the production of ridgeless puppies from ridged parents

yes but the DNA test does not show the genes the dog carries yet (i.e. if its RR or Rr) so there is not much point at the moment. and after the puppies are born is a bit late to collect the data :) (though of course is better than not bothering to consider it at all)

> For me, it would make perfect sense, now the health risks of the ridge are known, to rename the breed the Rhodesian Lion Dog and cherish both ridged and ridgeless.

i wouldn't disagree with you there (goodness! lol), they could be seperated into two types as many breeds are.

> . I believe the correct list is the 12 on the KC's own "watch list" being monitored by the KC's Health and Welfare Strategy Group (details on the KC website), plus the ridgeback and the cavalier.

Can someone point me to where on the KC site this "watch"list is available. I cannot find it anywhere

I have found the pilot judging list which is for:
Bloodhound
Bulldog
Clumber Spaniel
Chow Chow
Pekingese
St Bernard
Shar Pei

Granted this is only for breeds with CCs but no mention of the GSD(a breed in which breeders of the"International"type already do all the available health tests & also are now starting to do working tests as well to produce Fit for Purpose dogs as is done in Germany), Bassets, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Cavaliers, Mastiff, Rottweiler

Can I have a reply to my question regarding your qualifications ?

> firstly, why is this breed on the 'watch' list

The breed is not on the KC's "watch list" (or not the last revision of it that I saw.... sounds like the list is being constantly revised at the moment because there's mention of the pug on the KC website which, confusingly, is not actually on the KC list).

My guess is that the RR was included on the BBC list (which, incidently, was drawn up by a panel which I understand included members of the KC's own Breed Health + Welfare Strategy Group) simply because the ridged/ridgeless issue remains unresolved. For what it's worth, I was very surprised to see the breed on the list.

> since there is no test how do they expect, at present, breeders to alter breeding programs to reduce homogenous dogs being mated

Yes, very difficult at the moment. Meticulous record-keeping would give some idea of which dogs are RR and which Rr - although this will necessitate breeders being open and honest about producing ridgeless/DS pups. As one top breeder told me "Any breeder who tell you they have never produced ridgeless/DS is lying". The dog show culture, particularly, does not encourage openness about genetic problems. I would love to see this change.

I think we will have to agree to disagree about a large part of your programme, Jemima.  Whatever you say, the general public now have some misguided ideas as a result of viewing it.

Re the KC changing the breed standard - I really do feel that if they are doing this as a result of a study of 12 sinus affected dogs, given that the report also states that there isn't a definitive test to distinguish between RR and Rr, then they are jumping the gun.  I would rather await the final results of Nicolette's study and then make a decision based on that.  Ridgeless RRs and ridgeless RR crosses have had sinuses - breeding with ridgeless dogs won't stop the problem.  When we have a DNA marker for the sinus, we will be able to eradicate it.

> Can I have a reply to my question regarding your qualifications ?

Sure.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

> although this will necessitate breeders being open and honest about producing ridgeless/DS pups. As one top breeder told me "Any breeder who tell you they have never produced ridgeless/DS is lying". The dog show culture, particularly, does not encourage openness about genetic problems. I would love to see this change.

there have been several posts on this thread alone stating that breeders have produced ridgeless pups etc. so i don't think its as secretive as your suggesting.

there are those in every club, group, sport, work place, *insert group of people  * that lie or hide things. unfortunately that is unlikely to change. however responsible breeders want to improve the lives of their dogs and as such are more than willing to deal with issues rather than try and hide them.

> Can I have a reply to my question regarding your qualifications ?
>Sure.
>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

Oh come on now, Jemima, you have made claims based on science not just on opinions. 

"As one top breeder told me "Any breeder who tell you they have never produced ridgeless/DS is lying". "

But that quote isn't saying that RR breeders are liars, just that, in that breeder's opinion, all RR breeders will, at some point, produce both ridgeless and sinus affected puppies.  If I'd been asked that question before 1994, I could have answered that I hadn't produced either, but I have now. Has any RR breeder told you that they have never produced ridgeless or sinus?  I think I'm the only RR breeder on this thread at the moment and I've already told you that I've had both ridgeless and sinus.  What I've had in any of my litters, or what my boys have produced if they have been used at stud, has always been public knowledge - and it's the same with all the people I count as my friends.

jemima ad hominem has nothing to do with moonmaidens question. she was asking what qualifications you have to base your comments, which are grounded you claim in science. its not unreasonable. alternatively if you have references that you used on the show- and i assume that you must, if not then your program is even more questionable-they would be interesting to us to.

MM asked (for the other people who didn't read that thread)

>>Now according to you this isn't possible so can I ask what medical/veterinary/scientific qualifications you have to come to this conclusion that  only genes affect the immune system

i'd also point out that i have an auto immune condition that i am in no way famillialy predisposed to and so far DNA testing has turned up little evidence of a genetic component.

as i said on another thread, you have made comments that suggest you defend the show and its aftermath. as such i would hope that you would be willing to enter into a discussion of why you do not rate the objections raised to the program- had i spent 3 years (i think it was?) working on a project then i would be 1) more than happy to defend it against critisisms and 2) discuss it further with more deeply informed persons, such as ourselves, in the hope that it raises further ideas for future research, which of course should always be the aim of any study.

I think, by her very responses to these threads, Jemima has proved herself guilty of using emotive language in the now-notorious tv programme.   I am disappointed.   One would expect a professional journalist to be dispassionate in order to put across her points.   Not so.   She has been far more emotional than the non-professional journalists that post here on Champdogs.

I for one, will not watch any further programmes produced by PASSIONATE PRODUCTIONS, and shall do all in my power to persuade others to do the same.   Sadly, it is obvious that one cannot expect unbiased reporting from such a source.

> Whatever you say, the general public now have some misguided ideas as a result of viewing it.

Let me ask you this: if the film results in totally stopping the cullling of ridgeless dogs (or at least prevents the upper echelons of the breed club from sanctioning the practice), do you think that is a good thing? One person we talked to said that she was rather bullied into having her first ridgeless dogs PTS and is very sad about it. I think other new breeders have also been to this pressure (and particularly so when the CoE demanded that ridgeless shall be culled).

> Ridgeless RRs and ridgeless RR crosses have had sinuses - breeding with ridgeless dogs won't stop the problem.

We found no verifiable evidence of this that could be considered anything more than a stochastic event - and we looked for it.  I also had several exchanges with Nicolette Hillbertz-Smith and challenged her on the small sample size. She replied that they were "extremely confident" regarding their results and the statement I posted it earlier really does spell it out.

That said, there does need to be further research and given how important RR breeders believe the ridge to be, I understand why you might prefer to wait. My suspicion, of course, is that when preliminary research vindicates existing practices, they are never quite so demanding of corroborative findings.

As you probably know, Jeff Sampson (whose qualifications I hope cannot be challenged) feels that it is no longer acceptable to discard ridgeless when they could be used to reduce the frequency of DS. I should add that he asked me to stress that this is his personal view not necessarily a KC one.

> But that quote isn't saying that RR breeders are liars, just that, in that breeder's opinion, all RR breeders will, at some point, produce both ridgeless and sinus affected puppies.

Well no. I think that quote (and it was from Ann Woodrow referring to long-term breeders) was pointing out precisely that it can be very difficult to admit to producing ridgeless/DS. The worth of some stud dogs has depended on it, after all. Perhaps less now that the genetics is better understood given that heterozygotes are less likely to predispose to DS (although increase the risk of ridgeless). I am not blaming RR breeders for this specifically  -  we discovered that what we termed "selective disclosure" is a very common practice in many breeds.

It's fantastic that you are so open. It's vital for the future health of all our dogs and you're setting a terrific example.

> Jemima has proved herself guilty of using emotive language in the now-notorious tv programme.&nbsp;&nbsp; I am disappointed.&nbsp;&nbsp; One would expect a professional journalist to be dispassionate in order to put across her points.&nbsp;&nbsp; Not so.&nbsp;&nbsp; She has been far more emotional than the non-professional journalists that post here on Champdogs.
>

indeed, i quite agree.

given that jemima has not answered MM's question i cannot know for sure but i assume that she has been educated to at least degree level. else journalisms far easier to get in to that i thought and i may give up on the law idea :D

given that the absolute core value of producing an accademic work is an unbiased (as far as possible), coherent, well sourced and clear argument i think that she has directed an appaling production that does not in any way address issues, rather it scaremongers and dis-joints the truth. 

> Oh come on now, Jemima, you have made claims based on science not just on opinions.

If anyone wants the refs, they only have to ask. I don't have time to read/respond to every post, but if I miss a question, please just ask again and I'll do my best to reply.

> I think, by her very responses to these threads, Jemima has proved herself guilty of using emotive language in the now-notorious tv programme

Could you tell me what you think are examples of "emotive language"?

> Let me ask you this: if the film results in totally stopping the cullling of ridgeless dogs (or at least prevents the upper echelons of the breed club from sanctioning the practice), do you think that is a good thing?

to this one thing yes. but if it results in the government attempting to legislate on dogs then no- look what happened last time!, if it results in more verbal assaults then no, if it results in continued ill considered breeding, which it has so far, then no.

please stop ignoring peoples questions and answer then without trying to spin. you have in no way addressed the point being made and rather have tried to suggest that those who disagree with your program are keen on culling puppies.

i declare to you now that i for one do not agree with culling pups on anything but valid medical grounds and would like an answer to the actual question please.

Please can we keep this topic on the subject of the BBC & Crufts - debates about the Staffie or any other breed are for another thread

Perhaps people missed my polite request yesterday to keep this thread on topic as once again, it seems to have been ignored. If you want a detailed discussion about Rhodesian Ridgeback genetics or any other breed, then start another thread please. I also don't think arguments about Jemima Harrison's qualifications have any place on this particular thread. This is a final warning - keep on topic or this topic will be closed.

> Let me ask you this: if the film results in totally stopping the cullling of ridgeless dogs (or at least prevents the upper echelons of the breed club from sanctioning the practice), do you think that is a good thing?

At the expense of every single puppy farmed/byb pup's life, bought as a direct result of the commonly understood message (and im not joe blogs, i am a self confessed dog geek, and *I* picked up that message) given out by your film ' KC reg dogs are less healthy than non KC reg dogs' and wrt Ridgies in particular the message I heard was 'all KC Reg ridgebacks are suffering spina bifida and the breeders are callous ****'s.'

Honestly - on balance. No I don't think so.

> if the film results in totally stopping the cullling of ridgeless dogs (or at least prevents the upper echelons of the breed club from sanctioning the practice), do you think that is a good thing?

The programme was not just about this though.  If you had presented a programme that argued just for that, fair enough, but you made a programme that was directed, indeed titled, towards all pedigree breeding so whether it would justify all the colateral damage is a different question.

"exposed"- a suggestion that something hidden must be reveiled, the word holds connotations of drama, it can also be interpreted as sleazy i.e. "to be exposed (naked)"...

"Nazi" (must i clarify?...) those who seek to control and/or destroy, right wing, murder etc.

and for the purposes of full discloser (wouldn't want you to feel shy :))

i am qualified to give you the answer to your question, i have a BSc in Sociology with a specialism in critical discourse analysis- i.e. interpretive study of discourse.

>> If anyone wants the refs, they only have to ask. I don't have time to read/respond to every post, but if I miss a question, please just ask again and I'll do my best to reply.

i asked.

> Please can we keep this topic on the subject of the BBC & Crufts - debates about the Staffie or any other breed are for another thread
>
> Perhaps people missed my polite request yesterday to keep this thread on topic as once again, it seems to have been ignored. If you want a detailed discussion about Rhodesian Ridgeback genetics or any other breed, then start another thread please. I also don't think arguments about Jemima Harrison's qualifications have any place on this particular thread. This is a final warning - keep on topic or this topic will be closed.

sorry jane, didn't see your request.

this is very interesting though...

I give up!!