What's the situation with these dogs, legally? Do they come under the Dangerous Dogs Act Amendment 1997?

Our neighbour has one and it has attacked me. It didn't injure me - the owner pulled it off (didn't even apologise for scaring the living daylights outta me...in fact he laughed at me), but the way he let it behave would be classed as 'dangerously out of control'. It wasn't kept on a lead (still isn't) and no muzzle.

i believe it is a banned "breed", pit bulls and their crosses are banned under the dda.

In the UK Pit bulls are illegal.
Pit bull crosses are illegal.
The oldest pitbull would now be 21 years old and have to be licenced,
So it is unlikely it is a pitbull, as there are people that sell dog as 'pitbulls' as status symbols.
But if it is deffinatly a pitbullx it is very much Illegal and would need reporting.
HTH
Lea :) :)

Thank you so much. I have spoken to the police about it already (today). The people that own it are already known to the police.

Can I ask, what happens to the dog? The police say that they are going to visit them next week. Do you know if the dog will be taken off them there and then? The owner has admitted himself that it's AM J's Bulldog crossed with a Pit Bull.

If it is PROVEN to be a pitbull it will be euthanased. I dont know if it will be taken off them straight away.
Someone should have a link on telling a pitbull, and gets you to choose which ones are pitbulls. You would be surprised!!! I think they show 20 dogs including 1 pitbull. I got it wrong!!!!
Lea :)

But if the owner has said that it's an American... crossed with a pit bull?

Pit bull crosses are still illegal

So, does that basically mean that he's admitted to having an illegal dog, and it will get taken away?

Or do some kind of 'tests' still have to be run to prove that it's illegal, even if he has admitted it?

Just want to be totally clear about this...

Sorry yes, I should have putr the X in there.
Pitbull X's are still illegal.
Lea :)

Someone else with more knowledge wll be able to clarify this, but what I BELIEVE is,
IF the policeman feels the dog looks like a pitbull and deems it to be a pitbull, unless they have proof that it isnt , it will be taken away for further tests( I dont know what they do, or if they get experts in) to prove its a pitbull x.
HTH and hope someone will be along soon to clarify this.
Lea :)

OK, thank you.

I'll keep you posted.

If it is PROVEN to be a pitbull it will be euthanased.

While that is what should happen (according to the law), judging by the number of these dogs and the police's attitudes towards them, little will be done.

Even if the authorities do agree it is a pit bull terrier type it won't be put to sleep. It will be microchipped, neutered and registered and given back to the owners - provided they will pay the necessary fees of course. They will then have to keep the dog muzzled and on a lead in public.

Seriously?

What's the point of having the law then? It just seems stupid.

And, yet again, these people will have their behaviour reinforced: that they don't have to live by the same laws as the rest of society and they can get away with pretty much anything they want.

Hmmmm, wondering what the child's social worker will make of this situation? Having a dog classed as a dangerous dog in the house. Surely that must be a child care concern?

Makes me sick, really.

What are the necessary fees btw? As in, how much is he gonna have to pay?

Flip side, he may just be bragging or not have his facts right.

Johnson was instrumental in renaming the American Pit Bulldog, to the American Bulldog, perhaps the neighbour has his wires crossed?

I'm sure once investigated he will retract any pitbull.

American Bulldogs in themselves are very powerful, the fact that the dog has gone for you is bad enough in itself to report, I would not wish to have a dog that powerful without full control it is an accident waiting to happen.

OK. We'll see what the police say. They're going to pay them a visit next week.

Yeah, the thing that was really freaking me out was that it's attacked me once (albeit not injured me). It's just a matter of time before it happens again really...seeing as they live in the same stair as me. There have been a couple of close shaves where I've only just got into my flat and I've heard 'the beast' running down the stairs (not on a lead).

Everyone else in the stair makes damn sure that it's not around before they head out (I know because I've spoken to all the neighbours about it, and everyone is terrified of it). There are children living in the stair, and a pension age lady who has been very ill...so what happens when it goes for one of them?

On the other hand, the police did say last night, that if it was going to injure me it would have done so when it attacked me. They said that they thought it was perhaps acting like an over-zealous guard dog.

Either way, the guy hasn't got it under proper control and very obviously is not training it properly (it wasn't reprimanded for attacking me).

What's the point of having the law then? It just seems stupid

That's the problem when laws aren't enforced.  If they had been, there wouldn't be any pit bulls in this country now, but there are plenty. 

the police did say last night, that if it was going to injure me it would have done so when it attacked me.

This is the problem... the police should know the law and yet they make excuses not to do anything.  It sounds like a horrendous situation to be in .  Why should you (and your neighbours) live in fear everytime you open your front door.  Regardless of the breed, it is totally unacceptable, and if the police don't act, I would take it further - this is what the DDA was supposed to stop.

How would I take it further? Where would I go?

They said that they thought it was perhaps acting like an over-zealous guard dog.



It's really not the point though is it, the dog should be under control, I wouldn't even be happy about a neighbours little dog bounding over to me jumping up for a stroke everytime myself or another neighbour  stepped out of the door, the inconvenience of having tights snagged on the way to work, would be nothing compared to being made afraid every day, why should anyone have to put up with that. I would hate any dog doing a guarding job on the public stairway.

Is this rented/council accomodation or private flats?

As well as the police if rented or council flats speak to the landlord or council they will soon sort them out, if private, perhaps you could all sign a petition, or all go and speak to them about it, or get a solicitors letter to them.  The police at the very least should instigate a muzzle when out of the premises.

No-one should be afraid in their own homes.

Therein lies the rub. It's a privately-rented flat. The landlord is out of the country and untraceable, so it's let out via an agency.

I know that the landlord is legally responsible for the behaviour of his tenants. I have a feeling that if the landlord is out of the country the legal responsibility passes to the letting agency.

Being realistic, all the agency care about is getting their money, but I'm hoping that if there is enough hassle, they'll end up ditching the let. I know that the landlord hasn't paid the last factor's bill, and so the Housing Association we're all part of are pursuing their money through the agency and the small claims court.

My neighbour (who has been here 25 years) is too afraid to speak out. The other hassle we're having (antisocial behaviour) is I think linked to drugs. Too many strange people ringing our buzzers at al times of day and night wanting to be let in. Plus, I did see a guy totally off his head on something coming down the stairs one time.

It's affected me very badly. I have PTSD from a very bad assault a good few years ago. Most of the time I am very, very good at keeping it under control. I recognize my triggers and steer clear of them. This, because I have no control over it, and it's not being dealt with in any way, shape or form by anyone, is causing havoc in my life: nightmares, panic attacks, flashbacks, very high level of anxiety all the time. I'm down to one meal a day. I don't think there's been one night in the past fortnight/month when I haven't had a nightmare. I did sleep better last night, thinking that the police would be dealing with it, according to the letter of the law - that's what they're there for, surely! But now, knowing pretty much certainly that all these people are going to get is a little slap on the wrist, everything is as bad as it's ever been.

Your getting into a terrible state aren't you? :-) We do often allow a problem to fill our whole lives, from waking to going to bed, but once it is making you ill and overly anxious you have to let it go for your own health.

Once your in your home, the door shut and locked, you need to let go of all this anxiety, your safe inside your home, you need to relax and concentrate on other things, don't allow the thoughts of this to fill up your 'safe' time. You'll probably laugh but yoga is great for relaxing your body and mind, you need to do that somehow, don't allow your body to run on fear and worry, turn the tv on watch a film, go out, keep your mind occupied with other things.

Finish this off for now with a letter to the letting agent, your right they are responsible now, they will also need to check out all the problems you have mentioned, tell them the police have been called too, sounds terrible, I do understand why you are worried, but the chances are this family will move soon enough, they always tend to move on.

More importantly, don't allow this to fill your life, the people concerned won't even know how upset you and others are and won't care, they will just be carrying on with their lives, so you need to do the same as much as you can. :-)

Yes, you're totally right, of course.

Every time of late, that I've gone out of my way to set aside time to relax, something has happened. The last time was the hoax to the fire brigade.

On the plus side, I'm a complete anorak...very OCD, so I have stuff documented...dates and times.

From what I remember, the police said they would find out who the letting agent was and pay them a visit as well.

From what I remember, the police said they would find out who the letting agent was and pay them a visit as well.


That's good, a positive move.

I'm a complete anorak...very OCD, so I have stuff documented...dates and times.



What an excellent candidate for a neighbourhood watch chair person, is that worth looking into?  You could become the Hilda Ogden of your area. :-D  And you would be working with the police too, it would certainly give you another outlet, and somewhere to place your talents. :-)

I'll pass on that one, I think, and keep my talents for my paid job ;)

And besides, my neighbour is far, far better qualified for that position than me. She knows stuff about people that were here 25 years ago!

:-)  Let us know the outcome of the police visit, and I hope that you will sleep well in the meantime.

At the end of the day, you have to feel sorry for the dog having a plonker as an owner, a dog is only as good or bad as it's handler. You should all be safe from the dog at the very least once he is told to muzzle it, which I'm pretty sure will be the very least of the outcome. :-)

Absolutely. I totally agree.

Were the owner a responsible, caring individual (like the vast majority of people who have pets), then it wouldn't ever have been a problem. He would have apologized to me immediately, he would have chastised the dog, and then made sure that it was always on a lead whenever it was out in public (which includes the stair), and if it had been myself that was the owner, I would have made sure that it was muzzled as well.

But as it is, that whole family is a complete and utter nightmare.

Thank you for all your help and support. It's made a big difference to me. I'll keep you updated.

Can I just double check something? How much would the owner have to pay (roughly) to get it back after it's been microchipped? Are we talking like £50? Or a couple of hundred? Or more?

Would imagine that if the dog is seized and then if the case goes to court, the owner would have to pay the kennelling costs, etc?

Even if the authorities do agree it is a pit bull terrier type it won't be put to sleep. It will be microchipped, neutered and registered and given back to the owners - provided they will pay the necessary fees of course. They will then have to keep the dog muzzled and on a lead in public.

In actual fact what is most likley is the Police along with Dog Wardens and or the RSPCA will seize the dog, if the dog has attacked someone it can be destroyed regardless of breed, if it is found to be a Pit Bull (or Type), which is done by an independant specialist usually a vet then the dog will be held as evidence until the owner goes to court. It is very seldom in a case like this that a dog that has attacked a person or another animal is put on the exemption register it is usually put to sleep as a matter of course.

If the dog was allowed to be returned to the owner there are strict guidlines that have to be met and any infingement of these means instant removal and distruction of the dog. The dog would also have to be insured by a specialist insurer before it would be returned to it's owner and the cost of this in most cases is prohibitive for many of the owners.

http://www.egar.org/
http://www.bullbreedadvisoryservice.com/index.htm
http://www.endangereddogs.com/
http://www.petparliament.com/
http://www.cfidos.co.uk/

Thank you, that's very useful information.

Can I ask a further question? The police are saying that as it didn't injure me, they are stating that it was 'dangerously out of control'.

They are also saying as there is only one witness (me) and not two witnesses (which is what is required by Scottish law for a successful prosecution), it is unlikely to get to court, as the owner will simply deny that the dog went for me.

Would the same you have said still all apply? Would the dog be seized purely because it is a pit bull type? Would the dog still have to be insured? Would the infringement of the strict guidelines still result in the instant removal and destruction of the dog?

Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel yet...

A dangerous dog only has to make you "fear for your safety" - It doesn't have to attack you.  I believe this is stated in the DDA? 
This is a well used Police excuse ;-)

Ugggg, the woman at the Bull Breeds Advisory Service has just said that if he's a guy with a criminal record, who is really attached to his dog, he will probably make my life a nightmare and possibly try and burn our flat down if his dog is put down.

I know I'm totally in the right here...but this is a nightmare.

I'm so scared...I'm just sitting here crying.

If you show anxiety to either the man or the dog you going to be a sitting duck, and dogs can sense fear=weakness and dogs dont like weakness so he may attack. Project yourself as a strong confident person, pretend your not scared. Chest out big strides, but dont be intimidating just confident. But to protect yourself please buy some kind of spray aerosol thing you can spray at the dog, i dont know how reliable they are or a horn spray. Its worth a shot you have to leave your house at some point, be confident and sure of yourself. Another good thing to do would maybe befriend the man and his dog so you build a bond and trust, treats for the dog and a friendly hello. If you cant beat em join em kinda thing, i know hes probably not a sort you want to be fraternising with but as police dont care i dont see you have much choice.

Louise

Thanks Louise. I've got the biggest can of hairspray the supermarket had in my bag.

These people...no, definitely not the type of people you want to be friendly towards. Copped a junkie coming down from their flat once, totally off his head. We're not talking a joint here...more like a heroin high.

I wish they would just f*** off out of our lovely quiet stair, and go and crawl back into whatever cess pit they crawled out of.

I appreciate you're stressed but could you please not curse on forum :) 
The use of * requires little imagination of the reader!

Thing is, I never, ever swear. I'm one of those uber polite people that say things like 'crikey' and 'Heavens above'.

But I've really run out of steam, patience, whatever it is, with these people. They think nothing of repeatedly ringing your buzzer at 4am demanding to be let in, and then swearing their heads off at you when you refuse. Their wee boy does the toilet in the stair, and they just leave it for other people to clean up. Charming. Yes I really wish they would just naff oaf.

> But I've really run out of steam, patience, whatever it is, with these people

But chances are *they* are not reading this venting of frustration - so perhaps better then to leave the expletives out of it :)

regards, Teri

True, very true. But please understand, I'm not swearing at you, or anyone here. It's a sign of how totally frustrated I am.

Please let's not get sidetracked from the issue of the dog, and the owners.

> Please let's not get sidetracked from the issue of the dog, and the owners

A rather different tone - seems doing so has perked you up from being fearful and crying - a beneficial digression then :)

Ugggg, the woman at the Bull Breeds Advisory Service has just said that if he's a guy with a criminal record, who is really attached to his dog, he will probably make my life a nightmare and possibly try and burn our flat down if his dog is put down.


Gobsmacked that anyone would say this to anyone. Does she know the man concerned? Or is she tarring all with the same brush, quite an accusation to make about someone she probably doesn't even know.

Take a deep breathe and don't panic, all that has happened is that you have reported the owner for allowing his dog to guard a public stairway allowing the dog to act aggressively to others using the public access, anyone would report it, the guy won't be after your blood, he will just have to control his dog, or it will be taken away, I would expect he will just take precautions so as not to be reported again, the law is on your side not his.

Is the dog still off lead in the stairway, or has it stopped now? He would have to be really stupid to continue allowing the dog out, with the police on his case.

Just see what the outcome is, and for goodness sake the woman who said that to you, is just so out of order, what a silly, silly woman she is.

Their wee boy does the toilet in the stair, and they just leave it for other people to clean up. Charming. Yes I really wish they would just naff oaf.

Again report to the letting agent, the more you report, the more they will eventually move them on, keep on the letting agents case, I think this will be the only way to get them moved on. They have to keep your complaints confidential if you so wish, so they do not need to know it is you reporting them.

Once this dog is reported as a pit bull type, and if the police take it seriously, it will be seized and kennelled.
(which is where the problem lies, some police forces dont want to pay the kenneling, as this crime doesnt come under government targets, so they dont get remunerated by the government).
Depends on the police force really - the met take it seriously, they have many officers specialised in this area called DLO's, whereas Herts police, for example, have one DLO for all of Herts.
Then it will go thru the DDA.
The dog will be assessed to see if it conforms to type, if not by a DLO, an outside expert, such as a vet.
Their are certain measurements and conformation criteria here.
If the dog is deemed 'section 1 type', then it can be given back to owner under clause 4, whereby it has to be registered on the exemption list, microchipped, neutered, on the lead and muzzled in public.
Or it will be PTS.
Which option also depends on temperament and history of the dog, attitude of owner, and area dog lives in.
If your police force are interested, and the dog is deemed section 1 type, then from your description, this dog would *likely* be PTS under the first 2 factors.
Secondly, it doesnt matter if the dog is not section 1 type, legally it can be seized for attacking a member of the public.
For any breed, this is an offence under the DDA.
Thirdly, if the dog attacked someone in its own property, you cannot prosecute at all under the DDA, as it must be a public area.
The victim can make a civil case under the Dogs Act 1873 - but you would have to pay.

American Bulldogs come in 2 types: Johnson and Scott.
I might stand corrected here, but i think the Johnson one id the type that gets confused as Pitbull.
Any any case, American Bulldogs are one of the founder breeds of the American Pitbull.

> Gobsmacked that anyone would say this to anyone. Does she know the man concerned? Or is she tarring all with the same brush, quite an accusation to make about someone she probably doesn't even know.

All those links that were posted were in disagreement with the DDA. These people can often get very carried away. Emailing them to ask what to do about the dog is a waste of energy as they don't think any dog should be seized and all pit bulls are cute and cuddly. I've no doubt she just said that to stop the OP from reporting the dog :-(

> the woman at the Bull Breeds Advisory Service has just said that if he's a guy with a criminal record, who is really attached to his dog, he will probably make my life a nightmare and possibly try and burn our flat down if his dog is put down.
>

I think that sound rather threatening and would report what she has said to you to the police.  I agree with Tigger2 she appears to be trying to put you off taking any action but she has no right to frighten people.

as they don't think any dog should be seized and all pit bulls are cute and cuddly

I don't think that's strictly true. 
But I would be disgusted if the advisory service did try and put off our OP.  I hope that isn't the case and that she was perhaps just trying to point out how difficult any action against the guy could be.

I think the OP should press as much as possible for this to be sorted out.
No-one should be allowed to own a dog which is allowed to behave in the manner described.  Or to use the animal as a weapon of intimidation, it's disgusting.
I would imagine though, that this type of owner probably would not give two hoots if the dog was taken away to be destroyed sadly.
The hallway/staircase in which the incident happened is a public place and the dog (though did not inflict injury) can be deemed as dangerously out of control. 
I hope that in this case there will be some justice for Scared. 
All too often idiot owners escape scott free...

Are the Police in your area going to get back to you about this after they have spoken to your neighbour? Are they actually going to investigate this? This does come under Section 3 of the DDA and the Police have a duty of care to look into this. When it comes soley as a crime under the DDA and with Pitball mentioned then it should be the Dog Unit who look into the dog itself rather than your local response officer.

Another thing which would be worth doing if not already done so is contacting your local dog warden. They themselves will work alongside the Police dog unit and will call upon a liaison officer to check the dog out when they get a report about a Pitty cross and with it 'being dangerously out of control' they also have a duty to deal with this matter.

Also if you feel there is drug taking and possibly dealing going on in one of the flats, then i would say gather all evidence together and report this back when you have enough to the letting agency, environmental health and the Police. All will he grateful for this which you have put together. See if your neighbours would be willing to do this and get together.
You need to feel safe in your home and this would be another way to start getting the ball rolling to oust these people out of the block!!!

Good Luck