Hi all, just wondered if you could help...

I have a neighbour that I sometimes see on walks and we normally stop and have a little chat, she has 2 labs. She has always said that she wants to 'have pups one day' from her older female (she is 3 now) and everytime she has mentioned it I have politely tried to talk about health tests and the down sides of what breeding can entail...she hadn't mentioned it for a while. A few weeks ago she brought it all back up again and said that she was looking for a stud dog and had possibly found someone on the internet. Everytime she mentions it I get a little hot under the collar as I know they love their dogs but really they shouldn't be breeding, they are very nice pet labs but for a start the female they want to breed is very overweight and often limps. So as forcefully as I could (in polite conversation) I said they really need to get her hips/elbows/eyes checked before they even think about it. She didn't even really know what hip scoring was let alone the other health tests.

Anyway, yesterday I saw her again and she was almost in tears saying they HAD gone ahead with the hip x-rays and the vet had asked to speak to them. Apparently one of the hips is almost out of the socket and she will have severe problems by the time she is 7. They decided to send off the x-rays anyway. As upsetting as it was I was so glad they had found this out before they went ahead but was shocked to hear her say that when they rang the stud dog owner this stupid woman had said that even if the female has a high hipscore their stud dog has a very low score so it doesn't necessarily mean they can't be bred! Surely this is awful advice...Im just so worried that this silly stud dog owner will talk them round. I hope common sense will prevail but I just don't know. I don't know a great deal about the way in which hipscores are worked out but surely a dog with a hip almost popping out the socket is going to get a very high score? Or if the vet is only predicting she will have problems is it possible that her hipscore will be within an average range right now? Im just so worried that the hipscores will come back within an 'ok' score and they decide to go ahead. Is there any info I can pass on to help put them off about what the strain of pregnancy could do to her. The vet also said that her weight is a big issue and it is causing her to limp on her front leg. I know it sounds like only a maniac would breed this dog but I just know that they really, really want puppies (for all the normal selfish reasons) Any advice?

To be honest, this doesn't surprise me, having just read the entire thread on what made you get into breeding, I'd say that labradors work quite differently from what other posters say happens in their breed.  For most of the top breeders, the majority of their matings come from pet breedings...  There are some who think a low scoring dog will counteract a high scoring bitch, but I can't see it myself.  There is no excuse for breeding from a high scoring bitch in a breed where there are so many labradors being bred already.  It sounds to me like the stud owners main concern is the stud fee.

That aside, both parents should have a total hip score below the breed average (15), and if this bitch has a hip out of it's socket, then it's score is likely to be considerably higher than this.

Anyone breeding from a bitch with severe HD (which it sounds like), is not only highly irresponsible, but IMO cruel... bringing pups into the world with a higher than average likelihood of suffering from a crippling disease which at best will cost the new owners a small fortune, and at worst could end up with the puppy being pts.

If your neighbour is on the internet, perhaps you could point them in the direction of this site.

http://www.lab-health.co.uk/

In addition, it may be worth pointing out to her that future puppy owners could sue her from knowingly breeding from a bitch with poor hips if their pup develops HD.

I really hope she doesn't go ahead with this :( , i know nothing about breeding but it's just morally wrong in my opinion.

Why are people so obsessed with breeding :(

Breeding an over weight bitch for the first time at nearly 4 years old could well lead to her having a heart attack and they will lose her and any pups she is carrying at the time. To say nothing of the pain it will inflect of the hip with HD and every step she takes will lead to yet more damage to that hip.

i agree with the other posts the stud dog owner does not sound like a responsible breeder, and she is just as responsible for those puppies,as the dam owner  so obviously she is not going to be around when needed and shall leave all the responsibility with your neighbour her boy may have a good hip score but it may be only half of the puppies  take after him, and the other half after the dam , i would not dream of letting my stud dog go with a bitch that had a high hip score if the vet can actually see this quite clearly it does not sound to good, puppy owners shall take this to court for redress if there puppies turn out to be dysplastic,  through her breeding practices.by the sounds of it the poor dog sounds as if it could also have elbow dysplasia, if its limping already what is the poor thing going to be like just before it whelps, maybe she should look into it more,  especially what tests should be doneand the fact that the bitch should be in prestine condition before any mating takes place, try and diswade her show her some of the posts and websites re health of the brood bitch. etc good luck.

Up until a few days ago I was one of those stupid people that 'wanted to breed'. I have now come to my senses after listening to info from people on this forum, but I have to say that even at my most stupidest I would never consider putting an over weight bitch with a dodgy hip through pregnancy.
Shannon, tell you friend (in the nicest possible way to 'get a grip put the dog on a diet and let the vet try to do something for the hip')

For selfish reasons not to have a litter - I believe if she knows her bitch has high hip scores and proceeds with a litter anyway, if any of her puppies develop hip problems she would be open to lawsuits. She will have knowingly bred an unhealthy litter. Remind her as well that any slightly educated puppy buyer won't want a puppy from a bitch with high scores. She could end up with a lot of unsold pups. Maybe the idea of losing a lot of money will make her rethink.

Thanks all for your advice. Deep down I think I'm sure they won't be THAT stupid to breed her knowing what they know now, but the very fact that they wanted to breed her in the first place (with her being so overweight) makes me wonder. They really aren't bad people, or bad owners, they love their dogs and she is ALWAYS out walking them, they get about 4 hours of walking a day...I often think god only knows how much she feeds the 3 year old as she definitely gets enough exercise (although she tends to waddle at the side of her 'mum' and rarely goes off into the field for a run.) IF it seems like she is still going ahead then I will try and use some more scare tactics that have been mentioned on this thread, thanks guys!

Shannon, tell them my story. I bought my Golden Retriever Dandy from a VERY wellknown breeder, he was the second dog I'd had from this breeder. For a variety of reasons I wasn't able to collect the pup myself, so my husband went. I'd never even asked about the hip scores, knowing my first dog from her had had parents with good scores, and my husband didn't think to either. When he came home with the pup and all the paperwork I was shocked to see the registration certificate stated the mother had a score of 30/30. In fact I was so surprised we phoned the breeder to ask if the KC had made a mistake, a misprint! But no, she said yes, that's the mother's score, but not to worry because she used a stud with a low score and he was a "known hip improver".

Fast forward a few years and I had my dog scored . It came back at 48/48, total 96, just ten points off the maximum possible!!!! So much for the bitch's score not being important, and the stud improving it! On the bright side Dandy is now 12 ½ and although he is going downhill lately (and it will be his hips that finishes him off which is SO sad as the REST of him is in great condition), he's coped fine for years with just Glucosamine & Chondroitin. But the story clearly shows how a bitch with a bad score can have pups with even WORSE scores, no matter how good a score the stud has. I knew all about not over exercising a growing pup as well, so definitely did not make it worse than it had to be.

And good on you for actually managing to get the owner TO score!! Now to get them to listen again....... Do point out they could be sued by puppy buyers. I nearly went down the road of reporting my breeder to the breed club as she had broken the code of ethics in breeding from a bitch with such a high, score, but as she was elderly and had stopped breeding by then I didn't.

>although he is going downhill lately (and it will be his hips that finishes him off which is SO sad as the REST of him is in great condition)

My mother's Golden was never scored but had appalling hind movement, and it was his inability to stand unaided (and my mother was too frail to lift him) that meant he had to be put to sleep while his mind (and the rest of his body) was still active and functioning normally.

meant to ask   earlier does your neighbour have any information on her dogs parents/grandparents hip scores? has she actually been in touch with her own breeders to get the right guidance and advice, has this stud dog owner got an affix? i cant beileve the stud dog owner is allowing it to an unproved bitch, chances are she does not have a kennel name so her dog wont be named and shamed.

If sens doesn't prevail, you could point out that the dog's weight will increase the risk for her when carrying puppies, that the extra weight of puppies could make her limp\ hips worse, the risks of things going wrong, c-section etc, costs, responsibility for puppies for their whole lives, and how would they feel if they bred a pup that ended up having serious problems with hips and being in a lot of pain\ needing put to sleep, could they live with that? Make them think about what could happen - and the possibility of people suing if they get a dog with a hip problem when the breeder knew the score was high, if the other stuff doesn't work.

A horrible position for you to be in shannon but hopefully if you can print off some of the responses on this thread (you may not wish her to see your initial post) then your neighbour will be in a much more educated and informed position and hopefully put ideas of breeding from this poor creature to bed for good.

As has been mentioned, along with the many complications that breeding entails even for those with decades of experience and the healthiest breeding bitches, this bitch's hip status, weight problem and lack of any basic knowledge or appreciation of the potential for severe repercussions on the part of her owner spell a disaster - for the poor bitch herself and any ill bred puppies :(  

In the ever increasingly litigious society we live in your neighbour will very possibly find that going ahead with mating this bitch is a very costly exercise - to her bitch's quality of life and her own pocket!

Well done for trying to seek advice on her behalf.  You're being very caring and responsible :)
bes wishes, Teri

Hello all, I just wanted to update this thread as you were all so helpful. Well, my friend has the results back and she got a hipscore of 34. That is huge right? I really do worry about this poor dog and the pain she will be in, she is only 3. She seems to be walking fine at the moment as I walked with them yesterday, apparently she only limps if they have done a really long walk. They do love to walk these dogs and I feel that is what has caused such a problem in her hips...even when the lab was just a few months old I would see them walking by and then not come back for hours at a time. I tried to tell them that it wasn't so good for a pup but they never really listened.

34's not great, but it's not huge either - it's only mildly dysplastic (most scoring systems reckon anything under 25 is functionally normal) so I honestly wouldn't expect it to be any great handicap to her for several years.

oh thats good then...it just seemed so much higher than the average...but I know diddly squat about hipscores!

The worst possible score is 106, with the average being 14 - so 34's not great (certainly not a breeding prospect) but not catastrophic either.

Just to update (again!)

I was actually mistaken with the score before as I had only spoken to the owners daughter and I assumed she meant the total was 34 but I saw her mum today and apparently the right hip was 34 and the left was 28 so the score was a total of 62.

Does the age of a dog affect the score, are her hips likely to get worse? How exactly do they come to a score? Do they look at different aspects of the hip and then decide as a panel what score should be awarded. I wouldn't mind getting my GR done just out of interest.

If a dog has bad hips (and that score is not the best, is it ;-) ? ) then I would be careful on the excercise. However, it could also be that the muscles have developed really well, and she may not have too many problems until she is older. Hips do not improve with age, if bad they can only get worse :-( I definately would not breed from a dog with a score that bad, no matter what the breed was. The age will only really come into the equation if the hips were bad in the first place. Good hips usually stay within a limited perimeter, bad hips can deteriorate. Which is why a lot of people get the hips x-rayed as soon as possible.

There are 9 parts of the each hip that are looked at and scored. Each part is given a score between 0 and 6, except one part which is given a score  between 0 and 5. These are then totalled on each side which gives you the final score.

Ooh, that total score's not good at all. :-( They should certainly never breed from her, and take care to give her enough of the correct exercise to develop good muscles, but not to do so much that it causes further deterioration. Swimming is good.

Here is a pdf file from the BVA about the hip scoring procedure.

Good hips usually stay within a limited perimeter, bad hips can deteriorate. Which is why a lot of people get the hips x-rayed as soon as possible.

I know many people do rush to get hips done as soon as possible in the hope of a better score, but actually, given what you say, there shouldn't be any need to rush, if good hips don't deteriorate much. 

One of my girls was done at almost 6 years of age and had a score of 6/4, her litter sister done earlier was around the same score, so they definitely weren't affected by the age difference. 

A dog I bred wasn't hip scored until over four years old when he was wanted for use at stud.

He had a total score of 8, (our breed average is 14).  Interestingly his litter sister who was exported to Australia where they use the same scoring system was scored just over a year of age and her score was almost identical in every way with just one points difference on one feature, with a total score of 7.

The dog is now a very sound 10 year old.  The sister is now doing tracking titles as due to being spayed can't be shown any more.

Exactly perrodeagua and brainless.  It should make a difference - perhaps a few points, but nothing that should make a difference as to whether they were used for breeding, which is why I question the popular belief that it is necessary to rush out at 12 months and get hip scored asap to get a good score.  In fact, by really restricing exercise when young, scoring at a year, is it not possible that dogs with hips that do deteriorate later slip through the net.  I do wonder if scoring at 2 as they do in the US gives a more accurate picture.

I do know there are other reasons for scoring earlier, I did with my bitch, because as a working bitch I want to know that I can push ahead with training and jumping without worrying about hips and elbows, regardless of whether or not I have a litter, and I do appreciate that it gets the worry out of the way.

Gosh that's a terrible score. :( Like I've said before, my Dandy's mother had a score of 60 and he himself ended up with 96. He had no problems before age 6. He's doing okay now, reasonably so -he's 12 ½ and he's on Glucosamine and Chondroitin which has helped an awful lot. However he has a large tumour growing behind one front leg which eventually will start to hinder his movements. The other week he pulled a muscle in a front leg and then all of a sudden he had just ONE good leg and that was not nice. (And for the same reason, the tumour cannot be removed -his hindlegs could not cope with the extra work.) The vet did however say it is VITAL that he gets walked every day as otherwise he will seize up completely.

I hope this daft woman will not breed from this bitch. It's people like her ho give good breeders a bad name. If she does, I can see her getting stuck with all the pups as the scores will be printed on the reg certs and who would buy a pup like that? (Yes I know I did but hopefully people have more sense now and don't listen to the excuses of a NOVICE like this.)

Actually I think in my own breed no-one rushes to score too early as scoring before theyn are fuly developed and muscled could have a negative effect.

Then again early scoring would only be needed for a male wanted at stud yung, butches aren't bred from before two or more, so no rush.

I can safely say she is not going to breed from her...I think if she was still wanting to go ahead I would have to be a bit more forceful with my opinions on the matter! The fact is she absolutely has no desire to become a reputable breeder and get into it properly, she just wanted pups from this one bitch for the sake of it. They have another bitch that they spayed after her first season, I think it was just the older one they thought would 'make a good mum' and probably had a very rosy idea of the cute puppies running around the place. Anyway, I hope this is an end to it now and they can just put all their energy into caring for the bitch to keep her hips as painfree as possible. I do hope she doesn't suffer with her hips, she is the sweetest girl you can imagine.

Just out of interest, can dogs have hip replacements?

I'm glad she won't be breeding from her and good for you on doing some research.

With regards to your other question I do know of a Labrador who had a hip replacement aged 2'ish (if it wasn't carried out he was going to have to be pts) this was a very last resort and the last I heard it was a success and he was doing well.  I think he was having to have his other hip done at some point aswell though.

> Just out of interest, can dogs have hip replacements?

Yes they can, it was suggested to us when Molly had all her problems.  As you'd expect the recovery period is very very long & it's a very expensive, I think it's only used to last resort cases.  Fortuanately with lots of swimming & G&C supplement Molly has been doing fine for a long time now.

Just to update you all...this lab girl was spayed today, so definitely no chance of pups, phew!

Bet your so pleased that you managed to make a difference for at least one badly bred litter and their potential owners.

That's great news Shannon!

Yes, I did feel a little bit proud of myself for saying something as I'm never normally brave enough to pipe up about these things and she really is just a neighbour that I see on walks so I didn't want to sound like I was trying to lecture them...hopefully it came across in a concerned and caring way! I caught her on a walk this afternoon and apparently the vet sent them home with a very stern sounding note about how grossly obese she is and she is now on a prescription diet food for £76 a month...ouch! I do wonder what they feed this dog..I have never known a dog to get so much exercise, although because of her size she spends a lot of the walk plodding along and not running.

> she is now on a prescription diet food for £76 a month...ouch!

why not suggest a healthy raw diet or something? much cheaper than that!!

or just less of her usual food and bulk it out with some veg?