Whilst at school yesterday picking up my son, I saw a jack russell terrier puppy which had it's tail docked.  I overheard it's owner saying that it's just had it's injections.  I thought tail docking was illegal?  Are some breeds exempt from the law if it is illegal.  I'm only asking because we got Bess a patterdale 12 months ago, she is 2 years now and has a docked tail but her previous owner made a point of saying that it was done legally as the law only came in after she had hers docked.

Dogs can still be docked if it is intended that they be used for working. You have to have a certificate from the vets and there are conditions on showing. I have a 14 wk old clumber who is docked as he comes from working parents and most of his litter will be worked. There is a common perception that all docking is banned and I have had a few comments on Malachai's tail. Sam.

Strictly speaking it isn't legal if the pup ITSELF isn't going to be worked.

I got the impression that it was just a normal family pet.  There are a few farms in the area, but on the whole it's a big housing estate.

> I got the impression that it was just a normal family pet.

There may have been others in the litter that are workers.  It would be impossible to determine which had the greatest potential at less than 5 days old when docking is carried out.

>Strictly speaking it isn't legal if the pup ITSELF isn't going to be worked.

As long as the breeder can show that the pup is likely to be worked (ie, the bitch works) then docking of terriers and certain gundog breeds is legal when done by a vet, with a certificate issued and microchiped.

i think the law is stupid and very hypercritical, i love my breed tail or no tail so wasnt bothered either way with the law, but to say you can dock puppies that will work is ridiculous as already stated there is no way you can know at 2 days old if a puppy will be a working dog, not all dogs are cut out for it. Also the law was brought in because docking was 'barbaric' (apparently)...so it is still ok to be 'barbaric' to a working dog then????  Double standards i think! 

Personally i think it should either of been an outright ban or not at all, though i am sure others on her may disagree.

Its only barbaric when people were doing it themselves at home, either with a rubber band knife or BITING THEM OFF!!!! And the people that are doing these to dogs will still be, the same with cropping ears to make the dog look hard. Vets know how to do it, at what vertibrae and with the right meds if needed. I dont believe it causes any harm to a dog if done properly by the vet when the pup is a few days old. I had a bordeaux pup with a severely kinked tail that had to be docked, was done at 2 days old no harm to the pup he was fine, he got the name of docker but no ill effects from docking. I dont agree with the ban, but im not adverse to it not being done. But yet again it was decided with views from the GP who have no idea and just think its cruel without knowing the first thing about it. I wonder if they would change their minds if they knew its being done at home illegaly because vets can no longer do it.

Louise

I'm sure there were instances where barbaric docking occured, in fact we know there were, but by and large experienced breeders were equally skilled in doing a humane job of it and those of us that weren't could call on them to accomodate us.  I would have been happy to see a certificate of competence issued but that is all water under the bridge now that it has been decided that what is acceptable and humane for a working dog is not so for pet :-o

Many breeders did better jobs than the vets.

Well you know what i mean, those that dont have a clue bascially. BYB that have a litter and get a carving knife.

> BYB that have a litter and get a carving knife.

Trouble is I think that sort are probably continuing under the guise of "docked in Ireland" etc.  The welfare of dogs would probably have been much better served by having legitimate and experienced docking freely available.

I agree and i think they have gone about it with the ban in a rather ignorant way. Instead of providing a solution to help dogs and their welfare they have childishly put there foot down and said no!. Whilst now the majority of dogs from responsible breeders who were doing it the right way in the first place are no longer docked, the people who were causing the welfare issues with cruely docking are still doing it, because these dogs are unlikely registered or even pedigree. You think they would have learnt with the DDA that it doesnt work people will find ways around it and will do it anyway. Even if some good kind breeders were to offer a free professional docking service on the grounds it will be done properly and im sure they would be supported.

Oh i agree too, the people who outlawed docking have probably never seen a puppy docked in their life!

The point i was trying to make is that if it is supposedly so cruel why permit ANY dog to be docked, it is complete **** and these people that sit in their offices know nothing about it and generally talk out of their ar5e! 
They actually are not doing the dogs any favours at all.

However that said i will love and own my rotts with or without :)

The other thing too is that dew claws IS legal and can be done by a layperson as long as they are over 18, So where is the sense that docking can not be done by a vet but general public can hack off puppies toes!!!!  And this does hurt, i have my puppies rear ones removed as i feel that is neccessary but not the front...and i hate doing it i feel really mean!

As long as the breeder can show that the pup is likely to be worked (ie, the bitch works) then docking of terriers and certain gundog breeds is legal when done by a vet, with a certificate issued and microchiped.

That's not how I read it -the DEFRA info says the owner have to give a statement the dog about to be docked is intended for work.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/pdf/tail-docking.pdf

So where is the sense that docking can not be done by a vet but general public can hack off puppies toes!!!!

Taíls are an awful lot thicker than toes though.

>the DEFRA info says the owner have to give a statement the dog about to be docked is intended for work

Yes - just the way that show breeders will say the litter is intended for showing. They might well not be shown after all, but that's not the point.

> i think the law is stupid and very hypercritical, i love my breed tail or no tail so wasnt bothered either way with the law, but to say you can dock puppies that will work is ridiculous as already stated there is no way you can know at 2 days old if a puppy will be a working dog, not all dogs are cut out for it. Also the law was brought in because docking was 'barbaric' (apparently)...so it is still ok to be 'barbaric' to a working dog then????  Double standards i think! 
>

it is a tad confused isn't it?

but then i get the impression the law was brought in for the benefit of those who don't really understand why docking is of use and just see it as a cruel thing. i must admit i've mostly had my mind changed about it.

> Taíls are an awful lot thicker than toes though.

The thickness is not the issue.  You could cut a very thick clump of hair but it would not hurt because there is no connected nerve tissue much the same as a puppies tail in its first few days of life.  Dew claws cause them much more discomfort in my experience.

dew claws definately cause the puppies more pain than the tails in my own personal experience, though i have only ever had puppies tails banded never cut so cant comment on how much pain they show with that method, never liked that idea, but again many breeders felt cutting was better due to it being over in seconds as apposed to days with the banding method.

> Even if some good kind breeders were to offer a free professional docking service on the grounds it will be done properly and im sure they would be supported.

But they would then risk imprisonment, or a £20,000 fine.

Before the ban was implemented, i thought people understood that its the general direction of what we were talking about, some better alternatives to the ban?

Louise

> Many breeders did better jobs than the vets. <

I agree with you there .
My JRT's were done ,when it was still sort of accepted , by a friend who worked his JRT's . I wonce got them done by a vet and they took ages to heal up where as when they were done at home and handed back to their mum they healed within 3/4 days .

I still prefer the look of docked tails on the breeds that had them but I now accept that it is now against the law and do not do it.

I also cannot understand how so called working dogs can get them done . It is just a way of getting round the new laws.

>> Trouble is I think that sort are probably continuing under the guise of "docked in Ireland" etc

I thought that some legal document was needed for dogs being docked in Ireland, something like they had to have been born there or the owner had to have been living there for so long ?? Read about it somewhere but have forgotten where I read it.

we have an 18 week old boxer puppy near us with a docked tail
and she is not being worked, just another law that has been brought in and is not being
looked into, who the hell is going to go around checking that every litter born that
used to be docked is now not being docked, the kennel club register the litters
if they are registered that is, and then do they pass this information on to the
authorities that bought the docking ban into force to say this used to be a docked
breed they have regsitered a litter with us do you want to check the litter, of course they don't
i do not think they would be allowed to pass on names , etc due to the data protection act
so the law only works if someone gets reported for docking, another useless piece of legislation that
cannot be enforced.
carolann

>we have an 18 week old boxer puppy near us with a docked tail

and she is not being worked
It's only terriers and certain gundog breeds that can be docked if they're to be worked. Boxers, although in the 'working' group, aren't working dogs (what is their task?), so cannot legally be docked in the UK at all.

> although in the 'working' group, aren't working dogs (what is their task?),

if a dog is used for guard or police work- for example a rottweiller- can it still be docked? just wondering if their is a provision for this.

i thought boxers sometimes had a natural bobtail? i may be wrong.

some do, there is a line that was crossed with corgis a way back to introduce the gene but now produce pups classed as full boxer by the kc.

We had our whole litter docked by the vet.
2 of the pup's new vets have queried with our own vets why this was done even though correct paperwork had to go with the pups.
I have to say I agree with comments about vets not being particularly good at it (well some vets anyway), ours did all their dewclaws at the same time and to date (6 months on) 2 pups have had to have general anaesthetic to remove their bodged up dewclaws, 3 more are pending. That was 5 out of 12.
(Incidentally I have now changed vet!)

Ah but I do know someone that did use his boxers on shoots.
Boxers have been used in the past as Army dogs, guard dog, dogs for the blind etc (ok some not in this country but others
which do have a docking ban)

Docked Boxers are often bought in from Ireland.
These should be easily identified if registered with the Irish Kennel Club as all dogs have to be microchipped
before being allowed to be registered by the IKC. So they'd be able to check via the microchip if the dog is
from Irish origin.

Also I think there is some loophole to still allow Northern Ireland people to dock their dogs.
I don't know how they managed this?

Regarding bobtails - you can feel the tail to know that it isn't docked but born this way. Certainly on the bobtail
I own you can.

> Regarding bobtails - you can feel the tail to know that it isn't docked but born this way. Certainly on the bobtail
>

i think you can tell in most just by looking to.

> but I do know someone that did use his boxers on shoots.
> Boxers have been used in the past as Army dogs, guard dog, dogs for the blind etc (ok some not in this country but others
> which do have a docking ban)
>

thats why i asked if there was a provision for working 'working' (lol) breeds- does anyone know?

I don't think it was common practice for the UK armed forces and polices forces to actually dock their dogs was it?

i don't know, but certainly the commonly docked breeds i've seen were before, but i suppose it depends on what they are being used for. for example if your using a rottie for guard work i'm not sure you'd want it to be tailed as its something to grab.

>if your using a rottie for guard work i'm not sure you'd want it to be tailed as its something to grab.

Guard GSDs aren't docked though - why are criminals more likely to grab the tail of a rottie than a GSD?

Well I certainly think trying to grab a dog trained to detain a person, by the tail would be quite interesting and I can't say I've ever seen any of our local policemens GSD's without their tail. Yes have seen photographs and programmes with US forces dogs with docked tails but didnt think it was common practice with UK forces.

I've just checked on the Council for Docked Breeds website, and the only breeds allowed to be docked (in England) are:
1.      Hunt point retrieve breeds of any type or combination of types.
2.      Spaniels of any type or combination of types.
3.      Terriers of any type or combination of types.

It says that:
"Puppies from certain working dogs may be docked if evidence is provided to the vet that it is likely to be worked in connection with law enforcement, activities of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, emergency rescue, lawful pest control, or the lawful shooting of animals.  It is accepted that in a litter, not all puppies docked will be found suitable for work."

Note that the definition of 'work' includes working in law enforcement etc, but that the breeds permitted to be docked don't change according to their 'employer'. Rotties or boxers or Dobermanns may not be legally docked in mainland Britain.

fair point.

> Well I certainly think trying to grab a dog trained to detain a person, by the tail would be quite interesting

lol, certainly very interesting.