can some please explain them to me and let me know how you qualify for either and what you have to do. sounds a silly question but i have always wondered

thanks

It is basically a points system for wins.  See this link it has full details http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/610
Junior warrant not as hard to achieve, and i think they brought it in to try a system a bit like the american one.

Emma

Edited for typos

That depends, Emma.  A Junior Warrant can be quite hard to achieve in breeds like mine where there are rarely three in the class, particularly at Open Shows.  It all depends on how lucky you are in how many other young dogs are being shown at the same time as yours.  And then you need a good dog who is likely to win when there are three in the class.

we where on about this today at an open show, when many of the classes only had one or two entered and people where chasing there junior warrant points, one lady said she gave up on hers as there was always only her entered in many of the shows as people where prefering last year to spend their hard earned money on just the champ shows alone as they could not afford open and champ.
carolann

hi thanks for all the replys i will have alook at the link now

Have to say that I haven't done an open show for years.  I don't see the point in paying good money for a judge that doesn't even know my breed. :(  They used to be the training ground for breed judges but now I seem to find one judge doing 5 or 6 breeds. 
I don't understand why, for the sake of a slice of ham and a lettuce leaf (that's usually all the open shows supply for each judge :) ) each breed doesn't have a breed judge.  I'm sure that they would bring in more entries to pay for their lunch?

I like to use open shows for my younger dogs. It gives them a chance to learn the trade ;-) It also gives up and coming judges the chance to see breeds that they wouldn't normally see. Judges have to learn somewhere and where better than your local show? It's a lot cheaper than champ shows, usually a lot friendlier, and so much closer to home. I would rather spend my money on 2 or 3 open shows, than 1 championship show where I can't afford to take all my dogs.

ETA: In my breed it is so difficult to gain a Junior Warrant in Scotland. There are a couple who have done it, but the rest of us just don't bother. Especially if your dog is born at the wrong time of year.

Unfortunately gone are they days when judges can afford to travel for 3-5 classes a slice of ham and a lettuce leaf :-) they are ruled by the same financial pressures that we exhibitors are.

have to say that in my breed there are still a few breed judges that do the open show as well ( about 30% of the time i would say )
With regards to the JW i have found it to be very hard to get as there are rarly three pupp in puppy or junior at open shows and my pup's first show was windsor in june and there has been a top winning puppy out this year that has won almost every time!!!!!!!!!!

I think JW is far harder to achieve in my breed - not only is there a time limit, but you have to win classes of 20 or 30 dogs at the Champ shows to get those points. ShCM only needs BOB and a few group placings at open shows, and you can take as long as you need!

I am feeling very sad at the moment. What a jaded view some people seem to have of showing, yet they still do it!
West Coast you must have been so let down  if all you were provided was a lettuce leaf & ham. The Society that I am part of certainly take more care of our judges (3 course lunches) others in my area do likewise .
Re entries; we try to rotate the breeds getting all rounders judging them, these days it is not viable to have 1 judge per breed, and when we do give specialist judges (from the breed lists when we can get them) the entries do not increase. As has been said, if you don't give the up & coming judges the chance to go over some good dogs, how are they going to learn? Many breeds do run Seminars, but they are not always well supported by the breed people, I recently attended one and the attendance was all rounders not one breed specialist!
Lets try to be a bit more positive and pro- active, most local clubs are desperate for committee members that want to help (not climb the judging ladder at their expense) I know many breed clubs have the same problem.
We can all sit back and moan that things are not being done correctly, that will not help solve the problems. We don't need instant experts, learn about your own breed, talk to the experienced breeders & judges, learn from them. You may not always agree with them, but you can decide for yourself eventually when you have gained more knowledge.
I dare say I am going to get some irrate responses, but I just cannot sit back and say nothing. If just one person acts then otheres I hope will follow.

I haven't a problem with judges learning about breeds at open shows, that's what they're there for.  What I object to is poorly organised shows which have you hanging around for hours!  As for lunches, I've been incredibly lucky when I've judged.  One show even gave me a fiver instead of lunch!

Back to the OP by the way.  Can someone please tell me why AVNSC wins don't cound in JW.  No hope for my young boy as we rarely get breed classes.  I try to support the open shows by entering AVNSC with both my breeds as we've lost so many breed classes with TTs that if you want to take a pup out it's the only way to do it.  Having said that my girl is way beyond puppy classes but we still like doing the open shows.

I can understand AVNSC wins not counting, as you have to win against your own breed. Though if there were more than enough of the one breed entered it might make it nice to be able to be considered for the points. What I don't understand is why you could only have one junior, but could still beat several of your own breed, but can't get a point. Surely if you win BOB, even if you were the only one in your class (which has happened) then you should get something for your efforts. IOW if there were at least 2 classes, and you were the only one in the younger class, but there were 3 or more in the open class, and you went on to win BOB then you have beaten enough dogs, but can't get a junior warrant point. I think that is unfair.

I think it is very shocking at times the judges that are giving the classes at open shows. 

  I know loads of people in my breed desperate for numbers and more than happy to travel at their own expense.  These people ALL meet the requirements to give CCs with many stud books, CCs and stock to prove they are doing it right.. 

Time and time again I question some of the societies and they come out with some excuse, ie people won't travel ( UNTRUE)  People want more dogs or more classes ( UNTRUE) but when I directly ask them HAVE THE ASKED ?  the breed people if they will travel at their own expense and take other classes in the group they never say yes and I have asked a few societies. Not for me but for a few people I genuinely know are being held back because they lack numbers.

I have always been a big supporter of open shows in addition to winning  they are great for training puppies and also your own handling skills etc as there is less pressure. 

Over the last 7 years I can count on one hand how many breed specialists have judged my breed and I have done hundreds of shows.

Next year I have decided when I mark up my open show diary to call each and every society that puts an all rounder judge on our breed before a real breed specialist and tell them why they won't be getting my entry.

Something really needs done.

Just for an example.. I was a few months ago at an open show up in Aberdeen which is actually a good  2 1/2 drive for me, I went because the person doing the group I like their judging.   It wasn't until I was there I really had a long think that the person doing my breed that day was a working group person with working group dogs, never ever owned one of my breed. They did all the classes in my breed and the whole working group.  I asked why this was and was told the judge needed the classes.  The person had travelled from England.   At least 6 breed specialists within 2 hours of this show could have done them.

Unfortunately gone are they days when judges can afford to travel for 3-5 classes a slice of ham and a lettuce leaf  they are ruled by the same financial pressures that we exhibitors are.

Not in my breed Gillian, a lot will go anywhere at any cost to get classes and numbers as they are struggling to get them.

Can I say a JW is not particularly easy to get regardless of the class sizes!  My youngest champion has her title and show certificate of merit by 18 months however she could not get her junior warrant because she didnt win enough classes at champ shows until she got to later stages of junior.  I know she is probably the exception rather than the rule but it can happen.

these days it is not viable to have 1 judge per breed,  

Hi Marion,

Why is this?  can you not give them a couple of breeds? 

Most people I know will happily travel FOC and even without a 3 course  so if you or any club need good qualified ( I mean by evidence of their stock) and on the correct list   happy to give you some names. :-))

I think these days and the current climate now more than ever do we need to support breed specialists.

I know loads of people in my breed desperate for numbers and more than happy to travel at their own expense.  These people ALL meet the requirements to give CCs with many stud books, CCs and stock to prove they are doing it right.. Sorry I should have they have meet all teh requirements IE stud books, years of experience,  judging list, support of the breed club BUT They lack the number just because they can't get the open show classes.

>Surely if you win BOB, even if you were the only one in your class (which has happened) then you should get something for your efforts. IOW if there were at least 2 classes, and you were the only one in the younger class, but there were 3 or more in the open class, and you went on to win BOB then you have beaten enough dogs, but can't get a junior warrant point. I think that is unfair.

do you mean in AVNSC or normal breed classes ? I think in normal breed classes you get 1 point for BOB if you didnt get a point for winning your class.

Surely if you win BOB, even if you were the only one in your class (which has happened) then you should get something for your efforts

You can claim the point. as long as you haven't been able to claim a point in your own class but go onto win BOB you can claim it.

One point for the award of Best of Breed at an Open Show. Only to be claimed if no Junior Warrant Points were gained by that dog by winning a Breed Class or Classes.

> Not in my breed Gillian, a lot will go anywhere at any cost to get classes and numbers as they are struggling to get them

Well as a secretary I have found that to be a very rare occurence these days unfortunately and we as a society do actually offer some expenses so go a little further than the suggested ham salad lunch :-)

Gillian,

You know where to come then for a list of good judges for my breed :-)

I am on the committee so always have an up to date list of judges.

Some of us haven't got the perfect dog that a breed specialist will like - I am MORE likely to enter an open show with an allrounder with my girl, as her head is a bit plain, but her movement so superb that an allrounder will forgive the head. :-)

Gosh I would hope a breed specialist would judge to the standard and point score.  A dog is not only a head.    A thing often said in my breed to the head fanatics.   

Maybe you could educate these up and coming judges then by supporting them :-)

im the opposite, my boy is lovely (ok in my eyes !) and does well under breed specialists but his movement isnt particularly "flashy" so there is no point entering under all rounders as they tend to go on movement more than anything else.

> Surely if you win BOB, even if you were the only one in your class (which has happened) then you should get something for your efforts
>
> You can claim the point. as long as you haven't been able to claim a point in your own class but go onto win BOB you can claim it.
>
> One point for the award of Best of Breed at an Open Show. Only to be claimed if no Junior Warrant Points were gained by that dog by winning a Breed Class or Classes.

Only if there were 3 dogs present overall regardless of which class they were in.

> Surely if you win BOB, even if you were the only one in your class (which has happened) then you should get something for your efforts
>
> You can claim the point. as long as you haven't been able to claim a point in your own class but go onto win BOB you can claim it.
>
> One point for the award of Best of Breed at an Open Show. Only to be claimed if no Junior Warrant Points were gained by that dog by winning a Breed Class or Classes.

Ok, I showed my ignorance here ;-) Just goes to show how much I care about trying to get the JW points needed. :-D I refuse to travel hundreds of miles just for the possibility I might win a point. Why put your youngster through all the travelling, and then waiting? Local shows are fine, but we so rarely get classes, unless the gundog shows are on. There are so few all breed open shows that put classes on for so many smaller numbered breeds. At least larger numbered breeds have the extra chances. Even if there are more dogs entered in the first place.

> Gosh I would hope a breed specialist would judge to the standard and point score.  A dog is not only a head.    A thing often said in my breed to the head fanatics. 

The problem is Blue that there are so many good dogs in Cavs that it's fairly easy to get it all........ head and movement. There were 13 puppies in the breed at the last  general open show I attended (with my 2 puppies) and any of the first 5 could get a place at a championship show and at the last breed open show there were 17 in PB, the first 5 all were Crufts qualifiers already.

There were 13 puppies in the breed at the last  general open show I attended Gosh that is excellent..

I will need to look this breed up and the entries :-)    Funny our open show entries are just not great but our champshow entries are..

Mind you I suppose that is because we only have a handful in total Scottish exhibitors so hence the open shows suffer up here,

Anyway back to the comments :-)

there are so many good dogs in Cavs that it's fairly easy to get it all........ head and movement. even at that Tooolz the whole dog would be judged surely BUT as you say if the standard is just so good overall and they are all as good as you say, there in lies the question or answer I guess as to just how " show quality" a dog is and how far you really want to go with them or if you just want a bit of fun and a day out..

I think that is where people with breeds with small entries often miss the point so to speak.  They are often able to keep something from a litter and show it.   Someone with a numerically low breed may disagree totally with me but  I often find the breeds with numerically high entries do often have some really high % of good dogs as people know they have to really need to find the best to compete.  100% no disrespect to any exhibitor or low entry breeds honestly just an observation.

Yes we do give judges the opportunity to do more than one breed, but draw the line at handing out 6+ breeds to relative novices in their own breed. There needs to be a balance between specialist & all round judges, we are not a huge club but have managed to keep a fairly decent average entry so far. What I was trying to convey is that most general canine societies often struggle to even get judging lists from breed clubs,I could but will not for obvious reasons name several that we have written to on more than one occasion.
Re JW I agree it can be more difficult to get for many due to the KC requirements re entries, if you have a numerically strong breed in band E, the competition is tough, also for the smaller entry breeds it is almost impossible to meet the criteria. I certainly did not take my dogs all over the country when I was actively showing just to chase points for JW. If it counted towards something a bit more meaningful maybe that would be a different matter.

Yes we do give judges the opportunity to do more than one breed, but draw the line at handing out 6+ breeds to relative novices in their own breed.   Oh totally 100% agree with you Marion that would be irresponsible of both the society and the novice judge but that is why I said a couple breeds/classes and by giving a couple you should be able to get a fair amount of breed specialists.

There needs to be a balance between specialist & all round judges Why do you think this? just out of curiosity.

Dont' get me wrong I love all rounders, I really do and probably more so at champshow level.  In my experience the all rounders don't do as well with my breed at open shows as they do at champshow level. Not sure why perhaps it is because the all rounder at the open show is probably less experienced that the novice breed specialist in that breed but at champshow they have had to prove their understanding.

I do think a lot of societies could do their bit more especially in my neck of the woods and that includes supplying clubs with their up to date judging list promptly to as members have paid their subs and that should enclude helping the member.

Blue, I don't want this to take over the original thread, but feel it is imprtant for novice exhibitors to understand that Judging is a very subjective thing. A breed specialist should know ALL the finer points of the breed standard, whereas an all rounder is more likely to be assessing the whole package (ability to do the job it was bred for, good sound movement, breed type etc). There is no such thing as the perfect dog (except our own!), and an all rounder generally does not get the tunnel vision that can affect some specialists. Every judge is interpreting the written word to fit the dog in front of them, leaving a lot of scope for personal choice.
That is why I advise all my new handlers to discuss which judges will prefer their type with the breeder of their dog, then in time they will be able to assess the judges 'type' before giving an entry.

Blue, I don't want this to take over the original thread, Sorry Marion , Me neither ( terrible grammar :-D )  but I was just genuinely interested in what your thoughts were.. honestly not to contradict you at all..  :-) I think we all see things differently and it is a very healthy thing in dogs.

There is no such thing as the perfect dog (except our own!), and an all rounder generally does not get the tunnel vision that can affect some specialists. Every judge is interpreting the written word to fit the dog in front of them, leaving a lot of scope for personal choice.
That is why I advise all my new handlers to discuss which judges will prefer their type with the breeder of their dog, then in time they will be able to assess the judges 'type' before giving an entry.
  All valid points Marion and all taken on board :-)

Ment easier to achieve than 3 CCs in my breed anyway.  With our breed we use open shows a lot to train new hopefuls plus it keeps costs down instead of taking unready dogs to champ shows.  When it comes to not having enough in a class we often arrange between ourselves to attend particular shows in the year that way so we all have a good shot of getting the open show points.  It gets very serious when any of us needs just a couple more points to do it.
Cant say as I have ever got or tried for a show cert.

Emma

Also Blue, I understand that in the old days where you did something like point scoring, a Cavalier head counted for HALF of the points, so I'm told. I believe a dog has to move well and be well made all over, but there are a fair few 'old style' breed specialists who really are 'head fanatics' as you put it. I am really looking forward to this weekend when I show my girl under my friend who bred my boy - she HATES Ellie's head but likes her body and movement, and depending on what else is in there I shall be most interested to see what she does. I do know she is utterly fair, I have been to shows where Henry won and she told me she wouldn't have given him the class, and other shows where she has judged and been in shock that she didn't give a dog BOB because we all knew she loved it, but there was just another one there that day that she couldn't get past. It will be fun!