Hiya,
I am the new owner of a Westie called Katie.  She is 9 weeks old and we only picked her up yesterday.  Since we found out we were getting her I have researched what I was going to do with regards to toilet training and at night but now she is in our home im confused.  Last night I put her in the cage with her bed, toilet paper and water.  She slept or certainly did not disturb us all night for which I was grateful and surprised as I still cannot get my 2 year old to do that a lot of the time.

My question is, am I doing it right.  Am I putting the right things in the cage, some people say leave out their water but I would have thought they would be needing that.
Any advice would be gratefully received.  What about toilet training during the days.  She doesnt have the run of our down stairs as my wee ones are slightly wary of her exhuberance.  She is kept in our kitchen which is large and airy and her bed is near the back door as is the puppy pad (though today anywhere in the kitchen was fair game).

Many thanks if you read this far.

I do what you do at night and I definately would never deny them water even if it does mean you have cleaning to do in the morning.  During the day I do not use paper and simply spend lots of time with the puppy taking it outside everytime it wakes up, eats or spends 30 mins playing.  Out we go until puppy does the biz at which point I use a command word, which for me is "get busy" and as training progresses you will find you can give this word to encourage her to go.  Followed by lavish praise she can stay and play a bit more or come in as she pleases.

Thanks Isabel, that was very helpful.  Can I ask a question?  You say that you take her outside, is it okay for me to take my puppy out my backdoor even though she has only had 1 set of vaccinations so far?   There is no chance of us meeting other dogs as its our back door.
I am not able to be with the puppy all day as I will have to pop out to take the kids to nursery and back..  Realistically, what should I do with her then.  I feel bad putting her in the cage but if I let her roam the kitchen then she will pee which I dont mind clearing up but I dont want to send mixed messages.

> is it okay for me to take my puppy out my backdoor even though she has only had 1 set of vaccinations so far?

Do you mean into your garden or enclosed yard where other dogs cannot get?  Yes definately safe, your breeder probably had the litter out in her garden from about 4 weeks.

> I am not able to be with the puppy all day as I will have to pop out to take the kids to nursery and back..  Realistically, what should I do with her then. 

Just the same as night time.  Make sure she has had all she needs in terms of play, food and toileting before settling down in the crate again but don't make a fuss and chastise the puppy if they wake up and pee before you get back.  As long as you are concentrating when you are home and she is loose you will not delay training by doing this and the puppy should be learning to be on her own for an hour or two every day to avoid the becoming too dependent and getting upset when they have to be left.

Thats great Isabel, thanks so much.  It will be good to be able to take her out the back door, Im trying to have the kids as involved as possible and a wee turn round the garden with her will tickle them so much.  I knew my kids would like her but I didnt realise how quickly they would all bond. Its Katie this and Katie that all day long.  Great fun, LOL  - I havent heard about santa coming for 2 days now.

Hi there I'm having the same problem :) My pup is crated at night and shes always been completely fine with that - she's also been clean for 4 weeks (she's 14 weeks now) but I have a problem of what to do if I have to go out during the day - I really dont want to crate her during the day so she's never been left yet - she's never used newspaper and I don't mind if she wets while I'm out but she's so used to tapping the door to go out I don't want her having mixed messages! Good luck with your pup :)

> I really dont want to crate her during the day so she's never been left yet - she's never used newspaper and I don't mind if she wets while I'm out but she's so used to tapping the door to go out I don't want her having mixed messages!

You don't have to crate.  If you are prepared to mop up without a fuss anyway you can pick your moment when the puppy is due a sleep and chances are you won't need to if you are not too long. They really need to learn that you are not around for every moment of their day.

I agree that they need to learn not to have us around all day - I think she'd be fine if left and I have popped out for 10 minutes or so but I've left the back door open for her. I realise she's still very young with regards to bladder control but she's been so good with training I just don't want her to take a step backwards. Ah well, I'm sure we'll get there :)

> but I've left the back door open for her.

Personally I would not do that as I would worry about security both for the house and the puppy.  Kitchen are also generally safer places in terms of what they might chew etc too, or you can make them so anyway.  It does not set them back as they are learning to signal to you and they know the difference between not getting a response from you and not having you there.

I tend to crate each time I go out, even if I'm just going to be 15 minutes.  Although I used to leave the door open for my older dog, once I had two I felt it safer to make sure that they were separate when I wasn't there to supervise.  Putting them to bed meant that it was OK for them to relax and go to sleep - nothing was going on, and they weren't missing anything.  My neighbour has a dog that was allowed the run of the house from a very young age and she seems to have taken it upon herself to guard/watch every exit and window - she won't sleep much during the day as she acts as thought she has this necessary task to perform!  The other, big, advantage of crating was that I found that my youngest was always a little less likely to pee in there than he would whilst out and about in the kitchen or utility room - perhaps because he associated crate time with sleep time.

I'm at home much of the time and didn't need to leave my pup that often.  However I didn't want to create a dog that couldn't be left so I'd put him in his crate several times a day for short times.  I also have a habit of popping them both in their crates for 45 minutes or so when we get back from a walk as this would be the time I'd go out if I needed to.  It also gives them a chance to dry off - it seems that lately no walk is clean or dry and generally involves a slosh off with bucket or hose when we get back!! :)

I do worry about security with the door open thats why I've only left her a couple of times - my OH went mad when I told him! I have to go out this afternoon for about an hour, she's been fed, walked and seems ready for a snooze - hopefully I wont come home to puddles! :)

> hopefully I wont come home to puddles!

You might, you might not.  Worse things happen at sea :-)

I have a 17 week old Golden Retriever, and she is crated during the night and whenever I'm out of the house. She's very good, as she knows our routine now and just walks into her crate when it's time for the school run, the preschool collection etc. If I left her in the kitchen without crating her, I would worry that she might start chewing cabinets/flooring etc, and in the process swollow something she's not supposed to. We haven't had any problems with her chewing anything other than her toys, but I really wouldn't want to take the chance. Also, if you can watch her whenever she's out of the crate, you can correct her if she does start chewing something.
My girl is really happy sleeping in her crate and for her it's a 'safe den'. Sometimes, after a tiring play session or a walk, she'll go into the crate with the door open and goes to sleep. I think it's better if you do crate her when you're not home, especially since you're not out for hours on end by the sound of it...

If you do have to leave your puppy longer than you think they can hold it then you can make a little toilet for them using large plant trays with some turf in it (or whatever substance your puppy is being trained to go on) and no, I'm not that clever it's from Ian Dunbar's book. :) Of course you could come home to some dirt piles too - pups can be inventive with their games.

My dogs were crated trained from day one and what a godsend. Dog number one wasnt and getting her sorted and stopping her chewing things was far more difficult. I put their bed in the crate and then they see the crate as the place to gp for a nap and also when I need togo out. We practice even when I am in with shutting the door for a little while too. Maybe if I am going upstairs for bath or something so it is quiet. I did leave water in the crate for the latest pup but not the other 2, I am not sure why.  I also train straight out into the garden ours is fenced so no strange dogs come in so pups are safe even before injections.Also pups are kept in our biggish kitchen until they become reasonably reliable then I increase the amount of space they have to wander but usually only when I am around to watching closely and then dirsctly after a wee and poo.
Haveing said all of that it sounds like I know what I  am up to . Well 3 out of 4 dogs over the years housetraining  was great the latest my first toy breed 6months on and she is till dodgy !! (oops found a poo under the bed today  but at least they are dry and v.v.small LOL)
The other reason I like crates is that you dont come home to a wrecked house and I cant handle that depends on your temperment I suppose. Also if you have children when pup is resting in her crate they learn that she is not to be played with.

When the pup is as small as a westie pup, how big would your crate need to be.  I cant get her bed in it with room for the water bowl and a suitable amount of puppy pad for her to pee on.  As it is, I have a shallow washing up basin in the cage which she jumps into quite readily, a water bowl and the pee pad.  In the morning, the pee pad is quite saturated but then she will have tipped  the water bowl.  Is my cage big enough?

I was always told that the crate should be small enough that the dogs bed would fit but not enough room to let her move a way and wee as dogs dont usually soil their beds. If she needs to go she will wake you up. sorry you may get broken nights with a young one.Having said that all mine including the latest pom/chi went through the night from day one but will wee every hour during the day when they are awake so you may be lucky too.
My gsd pupy started off in a 36inch crate, vet bed all across the floor  + a soft toy to cuddle up to no space to wee Little pom/chi has a 24inch  crate and abed that fills it and a small bowl of water squash at the side of the bed. You can buy clip on ones if there is no floor space and you think she needs to have water.. I am not sure how big a westie pup is but that may give you an idea. it sounds like she has the right size crate. Small is better it may also help to cover it like a cave at night and no wee pad you want her to either hold on or learn to tell you she wants to go.. Others may a have different advice I can only tell you what I did after research and talking to people. It worked for my 3 different breeds.
Good luck I am sure she will do great

My dogs have their crates as a permanent bed.  The utility room was designed around them and two crates fit under the worksurface.  Because I was given a crate for my youngest he went straight into the full size crate that fits him as an adult.  I suspect that if/when I do it again I might try and get a crate with a divider although it probably wouldn't have made much difference.  Some dogs don't wee on or near their beds and others, like my boy, simply don't mind it seems!!

I don't leave water for mine, they don't need it for the short time I'm away and I know my youngest would just have sploshed it around.  I used only vet bed in the crates when they were puppies.  It used to get washed at least once a day for the first few months.  As they get older and you can trust them not to pee or chew you can add extra bedding if you like.  The eldest has a duvet and fleece and the youngest, who likes full control of the decoration in his pit, has a waterproof mattress thing and a giant fleece to scoot about on or fashion into a pillow!

As long as your dog has room to sit, stand and turn around your crate will be ok.  Too big and it becomes a play pen; too small and it's uncomfortable.  If you look at the shape and size of a fully gown dog, and think about the way they like to sleep then that's what you can measure for.  My gundog likes to sprawl, or to sleep upside down with front legs raised high!!

Hi.  We have a 9 month old Golden Retriever.  We got him at 8 weeks and we crate trained him during the day but left it open at night and every morning there was a wee and occasionally a poo on the floor.  Newspaper was pointless as he ripped it to pieces.  After a month or so of this, we made the decision to close the crate at night.   It was the best thing we could've done.  He went in at night with vet bedding, a chew and water in a heavy ceramic bowl that he couldn't knock over (although could splash!).  He has never wailed at night and from the start was clean.  For the first week I got up in the night to see if he wanted to go outside, but then read that one of the ideas of the crate is to train their bladders, as dogs will not mess their den unless left in there for too long, so he went in at about 12 midnight (my husband is a night owl) and I was up at 6am to take him outside.  Over the weeks, this went to 6.45 which is normal getting up time for me.  He never messed.  I work three days a week and get home to let him out at lunch times, so he was crated for no more than 3.5 hours morning and afternoon until he was 6 months when we decided to see if he could do without his crate - he's never messed since we got rid of it.  The longest we've left him if 5 hours when we got stuck in traffic coming back from Manchester and he was still clean.  He is left in a reasonbly big kitchen with water and chews when we leave him.  He has tonnes of different chews and raggies and we alternate what he has and we are very lucky in that he has never chewed furniture or anything else ... our garden is a different story .. we have the digger from hell!!

Thanks for all your replies, they are very helpful.

> I have a problem of what to do if I have to go out during the day - I really dont want to crate her during the day so she's never been left yet

But so long as she's not shut in hours and hours, it's a nice, safe place for her to be.  In a crate a pup is secure and safe, but so are your belongings.  If you give her quality time whilst you're around there's no harm in her being crated whilst you go out and it's important that dogs can be left alone, if you do this on a regular basis whilst she's still young, then you should avoid any problems later on.

> When the pup is as small as a westie pup, how big would your crate need to be. 

I don't think you'll get a smaller one than 24" - this is what I think of as a puppy cage.  You may want a bit bigger for when she's full grown, in which case a 30" with a divider in, just to shorten the cage as a pup.  Personally I wouldn't want my pups to have puppy pad's/newspaper in the crate at night.  The whole idea of crates, besides a safe place, is they help with toilet training.  I get up during the night with my pups to take them out for a wee, maybe starting at 3 am and gradually extending the time - by 10 weeks old they are dry overnight for at least 8 hours.  I also use coop cups in the cages - these are the clip on (bolt on are best) small metal bowls.  With these you can raise them up to stop puppy paddling (all mine seem to have liked paddling!!) so at least if you're going to continue with the puppy pads in the cage you can have a better idea of how much is wee and how much is from sploshing.  I also don't leave water in overnight, they get enough water during their meal times not to need it overnight, but if you feel that you must, just leave a little in the bowl.  I think your cage sounds plenty big enough, but it sounds as though you're cramming rather a lot into it!

Hi

You dont need to put a bed in a cage , just put in vet bed in the cage and use the cage as a bed thats what I do. no puppy pads either, you dont want to train her to pee or poo in a cage especially if you are using it as her bed, you will confuse her.

I also have a westie pup, and when I go out I give her a small kong with some food in it, take her outside before you go out, then pop her in the cage with the kong.  When you come home dont talk to her, just open the door of the cage, lift her outside and when she does a pee lots of praise and a titbit, I use a bit of kibble.  Mine only get their kongs when I am going out and the pup now runs into her cage when she sees me lifting it to fill it for her.  I have water bowls that fit to the side of the cage and only leave a small amount of water in it.  Sometimes its not even been used and the water still in it.

My cages are 18" wide, 24" long , and roughly 21" height.

Hope this helps.

Hi

Forgot to say I also cover the cage with a throw, so its like a den and a safe haven for the pup.

Marguerite, how long do you leave your pup for.  Im in the unfortunate position tomorrow of having to leave her for 3.5 hours, home for lunch then 3.5 hours again.  Not ideal but I have no choice. 

I'm lucky to be at home and just out for shopping, or going to visit family maybe 2 hrs max.  She is in her cage from 10.30pm at night and usually wakes up about 5.30, 6.00 am for the loo, I let her out and pop her back into the cage till about 8.30 then get up.  Cage has always been dry.