I spent Friday at a local Dogs Trust centre, and the behaviourist/trainer was talking to me about letting both parents raise their litter. He pointed out that in the wild, wolves/dogs do this, and that it can greatly improve the puppies' temperament. Obviously they become used to a male presence, and so are less likely to be aggressive to male dogs. Also, the father's contribution takes some pressure off the mother.

I can see what he's talking about, but in over three years of interviewing breeders and experts in many dog-related fields nobody has ever mentioned this, and it obviously isn't a commonly held view. All I've ever heard said of stud dogs is that they can be intolerant of puppies until they get to a certain age.

I have no experience of breeding dogs myself, so I can't really express a view, but what the trainer said did make sense to me, and I wondered what you all thought. If you know anyone who follows this practice when they breed a litter, please let me know. I'd love to find out more about it.

Just to be clear, this is an area I find intriguing, and I might well write about in the future. I know some members are wary of journalists so I wanted to be completely honest.

Probably not quite what you are looking for.. but I 'sort of' tried this a couple of years ago.. I dont have kennels.. so when I have pups.. I need an area where the others cannot interfere with nursing mum.. but 2 years ago.. one of my girls seemed quite happy to mingle, and after 3 weeks allow older dogs to be around her pups.. the boys however had other ideas.. they were scared of the youngsters.. walking backwards, keeping a wary eye on the little wigglies.. and keeping at least 3ft between themselves and the whelping pen.. once the pups were outward bound and making merry at around 5 weeks.. the boys had to be physically removed from sofa's, coffee tables.. in fact anything that was 2ft off ground level

This litter I have at the moment.. I introduced the father at around 2 weeks.. he sniffed pups.. took 3 steps back, and ran.. possibly to the nearest pub for a large brandy to get over the shock.. and the possible threat of the CSA if he does not begin to take his parental responsibilities seriously...:-)

No.. boys and puppies dont mix in this house.. however.. at around 10 weeks, boys are quite happy to sidestep around them.. I think they are just too worried about doing the teenies damage... The girls are quite happy to wander in, all curious and willing to clean an ear or two

Would be a bit difficult unless you own both dog & bitch & by correct handling & socialization most puppies have good temperaments/characters.

In the wild the father(usually the Alpha Male)will be hunting to provide food for his offspring & the Alpha Bitch. So will not actually "raise"the puppies until the are weaned(@ about 4 weeks for real wild wolves)it is at this stage that the lower males & females would be allowed to interact with the puppies. This does occur(although not always with the actual father-see the first line for reason)with multi dog house holds. once up & "running"my puppies mixed with all my adults not just the males, as by 4 weeks the mother is usually far less protective(if she is protective at all)-must admit I've only had a couple of males who were remotely interested in the puppies whilst they were very young

Most research quoted by behaviourist/trainers is based on captive pack studies-where hunting is not required. I'm unashamably a massive David Mech follower when it comes to wolf behaviour

Before I had kennels in my new place to seperate up the gang I let the dad, one other neutered male and spayed old female(her mum), (mum was really good buddies with last two)come and have a look at the pups as they were trying to scratch the door down.  The dad didn't know what to do he look at them wagged his tail, one move and he jumped a mile and ran off.  He wouldn't even go back into the room for weeks until he heard them rough housing (pups were about 7 - 8 weeks) and went in to join in the fun.  The neutered male went up to the whelp box and looked in said hello to mum and didnt seem to notice the pups and ran off following dad, probably wondering why he ran.  So as I was putting them back in the other room, my old girl, her mum (grandma to pups), got in the run part of the whelp box (its one of the snowsilks with a run on) and layed right next to the opening into the main part.  Mum came out said hello and I could imagine the conversation in their heads as they both looked at them sort of saying what do you think or arent they noisy or something.  After meeting the pups (who were just opening their eyes when I introduced them) grandma wanted to vist everyday but only for a few mins.  I ended needing a new door because of her constant scratching if I didnt let her in.  I only have small dogs so as you can imagine how much effort she was putting in.

People rarely own both parents to test it out. I think in the wild they have to be together for security, feeding and everything.  In the home they know they dont have to do that so maybe that instinct has gone slightly.

Emma

Thanks for those responses - very interesting. As I say, I have no experience of breeding dogs myself, so it's great to have your insights.

I'll look into David Mech. I have read before that most wolf research is into captive packs, which I've seen likened to studying humans in refugee camps and claiming that is normal human behaviour.

Thanks again. Julie 

Not even sure the statement that in the wild the sire will care for the bitch once whelped is correct. In the wild the pack will care for the dam other bitches will hunt and nurse if needed, the dogs of the pack will guard the pack if pushed otherwise do there own thing.

Someone should also point out that domesticated dogs are not wolves; millions of years ago they may have been but I suspect they parted company even before they, the dogs, were domesticated. Perhaps theses people should be looking at wild dogs rather than wolves but then to most they are not so attractive as the northern wolf.

We are always hearing about the 'wolf' when it comes to behaviour and feeding the domestic dog why not the 'wild dog' may be they don't fit the persons theories but one would think they were closer to the domestic dog than the wolf, they are however not as pretty to look at and their habits are perhaps not so appealing to the theorist either    

I have one male who adoes puppies right from birth and daintily steps around them and lies with them...however all the others are terrified of puppies and I wouldnt let them within 20 yards!!

My boys dad loves puppies from birth upwards. He loved cleaning them and feeding them.  One time tried to copy the mum by suckling them but he got a bit of a scare lol.  It is possible in the wild and I personally would say that actually the mother and father alternate keeping the pups clean and warm.  Going by what I saw myself, our girl was happy to go off and do her thing and leave the dog to "guard" the pups.  It is important to know that wolves technically mate for life (one may be killed by a rival or a bad winter) but if it's a good team then they will stay together.  This bond is important and you could not have a regular stud dog raise a litter of a female he was not long-term bonded with.

Before I bred myself I did a lot of research met a lot of breeders some with Dam and Sire, some without, I would say that the 'norm' when a breeder has a Dam and Sire on the premises is that the bitch after whelping will not want the Sire or any other dog around, they want peace and quiet to raise their litter and of course need to rest, their first priority is the survival of their offspring. I've witnessed other bitches sitting and keeping an eye on the Dam and her pups but not really the Sire, if allowed they may have a quick peep, but they have no interest in newborns and most bitches will growl if any male comes close even the Sire, I've certainly never, ever witnessed one wish to clean or sit with newborns, or be allowed to. (Of course there are always exceptions :-D )

But once the pups are up and running even from 3 weeks of age, I've seen the Sires licking and playing with the pups the Sire can become just as much a playmate and carer as the Dam and any other bitches around, and they enjoy the pups just as much, I've often seen this, so if this is what you mean then yes, the Sire is a great friend and playmate to pups when they are together. I don't agree it has any influence on making a pup less likely to be aggressive to male dogs, there is a good mix between pups raised with or without the Sire on the premises, it is an interesting concept though, but personally I don't think it makes a difference, having trained pups in the past from both single and duo partentage, it is not something that I have noticed at all.

One of my boys absolutely adores puppies, when my girl had some last year we had to be very careful to keep him away for the first few days as he was desperate to get in and find out what was going on and he wanted to get right in the box with them. Ellie didn't mind at all but we were worried he might jump on them being a bit clumsy. Once they were allowed together he loved them to bits, spent ages running around with them when they were mobile, and sneaked in to steal their toys all the time - and he doesn't usually like toys! My other boy was totally uninterested though, had to be coaxed into the room when we wanted a group shot. And when they were all running in the garden, he would just stand there while they galloping around attacking him and running off, and he'd be vaguely looking around like he was thinking 'where did these fast things come from?' :-)

Interesting comment about pairing for life and studs mixing with their pups etc.  My beardie girl has a strong liking, lust, for my Tibetan boy.  She would have gladly had his babies but we used our stud Beardie for the purpose. 

Strangely with her second litter the TT was the first to go into the whelping room and indeed jumped in with the whelps, about 5 days old, when she went out into the garden - she did not tell him off at all I simply removed him and she got back in (obviously not his pups).

The puppies father was and is terrified of them and can be seen thundering down the hall with a pup attached to each ear, beard, tail, and frills once they are mobile.

Is this because she would rather have paired with the TT? who is black incidentally and she also has a yen for black labs :)

For a start I very much doubt the males are allowed into the den until the pups are ready to venture out.

My own dogs the bitches will not allow the other dogs near while the eyes are closed and then gradually allow then other dogs to have more to do with pups, from two weeks onwards the pups accomodations are in the kitchen where the otehr dogs are regularly too.

So I think many breeders with multidog households already have a lot of input from other pack members into puppy rearing and socialisation, even though the Father is unlikely to be one of them.

It is 100% true that the TT boy was allowed into the whelping box, I don't know why but he was.

I have never had the litter's sire take an interest in raising a litter, on the few occassions the dog has been present they have certainly not met up wiht the litter until the pups are playing around (probalby 6-8 weeks).  Howeve,r I ahve had 2 dogs who actively got involved wiht litters.  My first Amcerican Cocker bitch and her "best Friend" my neutered male were inseperable, Jessica had one litter, and was not the most caring mum, and was unwilling to stay in the whelping box in my bedroom, so in desperation I let Titch in too, he carefull sniffed each pup and Jessica, and then settled down at the front of the whelping box, and guarded Mum and pups for 3 weeks.  He was very peaceful, did not intefere, but was very much on alert if anyone else was in the bulding apart from me.  At 3 weeks he gave himself some time off, and played beautifully wiht the pups when they started running around.

Years later Junior my pet American Cocker, took a great interest in any bitch giving birth and was always desperate to visit the pups.  When I started with pugs his help became invaluable!  Most of my pug girls are very non maternal, and Junior would attend each whelping (which was appreciated by the bitch, as they really did not like feeling isolated.  He took over all washing duties if the girls did not want to do it, and generally was happy to puppy sit at any time.  He is the most non macho entire male dog I have every owned (or met) so I always felt this may be another way of letting his feminine side out!

My boy Vaggy loves to get in with the pups but my girls are not usually happy for him to do so until they are around two weeks old and have their eyes and ears open. I've got some brilliant pictures of all the dogs playing with the pups including dad ;) I do believe that the pups learn much more about social interaction, manners and pack dynamics from the whole pack than they would from just mum alone.

My experiences are much the same as Kays! The 'boys' don't want to know AT ALL!!! They all seem scared stiff of the pups, even if they are their own! :-)

> I do believe that the pups learn much more about social interaction, manners and pack dynamics from the whole pack than they would from just mum alone.

I have found with my litters since my second when they had the benefit of more than Mum that the pups are a lot more canine savvy, they know that they cannot treat all other dogs like their Mum.

Barbara, do the 'males' in the house interact straight away, or like mine, when the pups are 4 + weeks of age?

That image of the Dad running down the hall with pup attached is priceless!:-)

I don't keep males at all, but have had them staying while I have had pups.  the young inexperienced one (Dad of last litter) was happy to play with pups at the running around stage and the Dam was happy to let him, but he lives with toy dogs.

Another male I bred who stays occasionally and has been used at stud here has always loved pups, but again of an age to be up and running.

Mature males in my breed are nearly all good with pups but certainly not until they are at the age to be with the pack as a whole.

Our imported male was afraid of young pups initialy but now with his grandchildrena dn other litters bred where he lives he has been a at ease from the eyes open stage.

I think that's very human though - some guys turn green when you mention kids lol!  Our dog was with the pups from the beginning and mum didn't mind (or care actually).  I think it made it easier because they lived together and had the bond though.  In the wild it would depend who was pack leader if the male saw the pups sooner rather than later - our female is certainly top dog, the dad was subordinate to her and always has been.  I think it is a fascinating subject, and certainly the pups (now 3.5 years old) have defined characteristics of both their parents.  I'm not sure they would had their dads quirks had they been raised solely by their mum.  If you look at other canids, not just wolves, the sire does have a more active role in the raising of the pups.  I suppose the real debate is, does it have to be the sire that helps the dam? Or is it more the fact that puppies raised in multiple dog homes where the mum has the "support" of a pack benefit from that?

Yep, isn't it funny how they are afraid...or whatever! of them that they only play with them when they're up and running? Maybe it's to do with not harming them?

I do feel it is more the pack instinct? The males certainly seem to avoid them UNTIL they are up and running...then they all play together, though my males haven't 'told off' the pups, they usually run away again!! I think they do learn 'manners' from being in a pack? It is very interesting watching the dynamics of a pack though! :-)

Forgot to say...Storm, the Newfie, aviods the pups like the plague! Even though my wee ones always want to play with her, she takes herself off out of the way!!! It's only when they are about 6+ months that she really interacts with them and plays chase me charlie round the garden!

Well I've heard of new fathers who are too afraid to hold their newborn babies, so anything is possible. Also the prospect of puppy teeth hanging into your crow jewels is a very sobering thought (I've seen it done, very funny!)

WHAT!!! In humans!!! ROFL ;-)

LOL! Not quite - you know what I meant :-)  Daddy dog got a fright when a puppy latched onto his "teat" ;-) 

I know, but I couldn't resist and needed cheering up! ;-)

> I'm not sure they would had their dads quirks had they been raised solely by their mum

I have a bitch Jozi who has so many of her Dad's behavioural traits, it really does show that nature has a huge part to play over nurture, and she has only met her Dad a few times at shows.

Unfortunately despite my best efforts, my son has a huge number of his Dads behavioural traits, yet has only set eyes on him twice in his 18 years of life and that in the last two.

Friends and I also imported a dog and put him through Quarantine and he emerged very well balanced and with an excellent temperament despite his lack of socialisation from 9 weeks to 9 months of age.

Love your descriptions of puppy dads running for the hills re csa and the pub!! still laughing

I honestly believe that it would depend on the breed. I was waiting in the Vets surgery one day and there was a lady with a cage and a Jack Russell bitch with one lone puppy which was hours old. The lady explained that she had left the male (the father) in with the bitch and she had whelped during the night (pretty sure by the sounds of it that they normally slept in the stabel) She came in the next morning to find the bitch with the one puppy and two other bodies around. The dog had killed the other pups. That poor bitch was whelping and possibly trying to defend her puppies from the father. My Vet was livid with her. I don't think in the wild that the fathers go into the den at all and only really see the puppies when they are on their feet and coming outside.

In the wild, whether wild dogs or wolves etc., only the fittest and healthiest of the pack mate and produce - mother nature's way of ensuring the species continue.  Were the alpha male in a pack of such suspect character that he killed his offspring then his line would die out.

In the world of domesticated animals, we humans have the onus of deciding which animals are brought together to produce offspring and further a line.  As most females bred will only 'visit' the proposed sire, it may be the male never has close up encounters in his lifetime with progeny in the nest and so there is no real way of knowing that every stud or any stud used would be tolerant of whelps.

That said as several good folks have mentioned many stud dogs do spend time with their young and others even if not particularly endeared to them would prefer to give them a wide berth but not for reasons of poor character - more avoiding smelly bitey things :)

This time last year a friend's Lab bitch had an accidental liaison with a neighbour's wandering male (as it happens another Lab).  She already shared her home with a neutered Lab male and he was present during the whelping as their owners felt she was distressed when he wasn't around.  When everything done, dusted, tidied up etc, they put her whelping box inside a large pen and her friend Barny could only watch from the other side of the wires.  During the night the bitch carried each of her 8 pups out to Barny and they slept snuggled up together in their usual place in front of the hearth :)  I could have cried when they told me - and when they split them up the bitch did it again :)  Barny was a fabulous 'dad' and babysitter - we think perhaps he thought they were his LOL.