I have sene it mentioned on here before, but can someone please calrify for me the situation regarding the situation with dog breeding in Sweden? Am I right in thinking thye have legislation there strictly governing dog breeding, and that the rescue centres there are virtually empty? Are only pedigrees allowed to be bred? Do they allow crossbreeds?

Sorry if I am not explaining very clearly, I have had a long day, but hopefully people will know what I mean.

Thanks!

In short, you have to be a KC member if you want to show your dog or register puppies or compete in agility, obedience or similar. I.e. if you want to do anything with your dog, you need to be a KC member. Even a lot of pet dog owners are. Needless to say, the Swedish KC does not like or encourage crossbreeding. They used to have an actual rule so that if somebody was found to have deliberately bred a crossbreed litter, they would lose their membership and hence not be able to even show dogs again -hence people didn't do it. I can no longer find that rule so I think it's been removed, but it's still very much frowned upon. However designer crosses started to appear in Sweden long before here -minus the silly names, and an alternative KC was formed for crossbreeds and mongrels only.

You cannot register pups with the KC unless the parents have had the relevant health tests with good results, some breeds (mainly working and pastoral) also require temperament assessing. If the parents are not shown or worked it will cost roughly twice as much to register each pup, than if the parents had qualifications of whatever sort.

All dogs have to be microchipped or tattooed by law, but none of the rest is law -it's the KC rules. So the UK KC saying they can't enforce such rules without government legislation is rubbish -they can and do in Sweden.

Rescues are far less common than here, but do exist. However in Stockholm there is only ONE shelter (in fact I don't really know of any others in the country, full stop!) and you cannot walk in there and look at the dogs. You fill in a questionnaire detailing your lifestyle, what type of dog you are looking for (sex, size, coat etc) and the staff will match you with some suitable dogs and let you meet them ONLY. I.e. under no circumstances are you allowed to pick a dog on looks only. Usually there is a waiting period before they find you a suitable dog. The staff at the shelter are not allowed to tell the general public where the dogs are from when out walking them, again in case somebody sees a dog they like the look of, and then go and fill out the questionnaire to fit that particular dog. They can afford to be picky because rescues are that rare. A few years ago though they got over 100 rescues (Yorkies manly) from a breeder similar to  a puppy farm so it does still happen -but very rarely.

> So the UK KC saying they can't enforce such rules without government legislation is rubbish -they can and do in Sweden.

How do they enforce it?  Are they not just relying on the culture? 

I explained it all above Isabel. :) Simple example: you cannot register pups from breed x without the parents having been hip scored and eye tested with good results. As the results will be lodged with the KC, if anyone tries to register a litter from parents without the tests or with terrible results, the reg app will be refused.

But how can they enforce against people simply not registering their litters or using another registry which was what the KC were referring to?  There seems to be simply a culture in Sweden for not doing this.

Also a number of kennels in Sweden churn out puppies which I would have thought would be forbidden if their system is as good as it is cracked up to be! One I would actually call a puppy farm.....

>How do they enforce it?

If alternative registries can be set up (such as the one for crossbreeds and mongrels only) what's to stop another registry for pedigrees being set up?

How do they cope with the "We only want a pet and done care if it's registered.  And if we change our minds, we'll chuck it out next week" people?

I sometimes wonder if the fact that we do have so many rescue centres could actually encourage certain people to take on unsuitable dogs or in unsuitable situations because they know that they have an easy dumping ground where someone else will take on their responsibilty if they want to dispose of it. :(

It wouldn't work over here in my view - I know that some folk have been campaigning for a similar system to be introduced.

With enough publicity from welfare and other agencies to tell the general public to only buy registered pups the others would find it unprofitable to breed unregistered and crossbred pups.

In days gone by a crossbred litter had to be given away Free to good home and people were a lot more likely to dispose of the mistake at birth rather than rear a costly litter.

Now when you suggest the best option for an unplanned litter is termination or PTS at birth people throw their hands up in horror.

I completely agree Brainless - Joe Public's attitude needs to be altered.  At present it would be futile to try and educate JP in how to buy a puppy.  I've tried with my in(out)laws and I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

I dont' think it is culture but education.  For me the fact it s working tells you it can work. Yes you will always get the small % of problems but in Sweden my understanding it is working very well.

One thing I think they have done right which "we" in the UK didn't, Sweden created a system that doesn't confuse people.

The breeders themself must be KC registered not just the litter this acts as the stamp in my opinion.

In the Uk anyone can register a litter it doesn't mean the breeder is very good or the litter is very good.

You'll always get people saying it doesn't work but for me the proof is in the pudding. :-)

Okay, just a few quick replies -just back from a show. Joe Public in Sweden who wants a pet dog wants a KC registered dog -everyone knows all good dogs should be, because the KC has pushed it so much. A non registered pedigree dog is pretty worthless, and again this is general knowledge. As KC registration means a LOT more than here, people know that by buying a KC registered dog they will get a dog from health and/or temperament tested parents. Hence people don't WANT to buy an unreg'd dog as it would be so foolish and risky. Starting to feel like a parrot here but by not being able to register pups from parents not tested, everyone knows registration is worthwhile. Why would they want to buy a pup not registered with the proper body?

Starting to feel like a parrot here but by not being able to register pups from parents not tested, everyone knows registration is worthwhile. Why would they want to buy a pup not registered with the proper body?

Could it be a culture thing?  Many of us health test etc. here in the UK but the GP do not realise this so they are more than happy to go off to certain companies and buy a pup that is puppy farmed, or go on the free ad sections and get a dog that is nothing like the breed that they wanted.

Even when warned not to buy from certain groups of people, many still end up doing so.

I don't know about dog breeding in Sweden but there is a regular *rescue dog tourism* between Ireland and Sweden. Two or three Swedish rescue fly rescue dogs into Sweden from here. I get queries every other week from Sweden re one of my dogs but I do rehome solely in Ireland and not via other rescues.

> Even when warned not to buy from certain groups of people, many still end up doing so.

Indeed.  I do think the culture is very different here and not set to change following all the bad publicity that pedigrees have received :-(. 
The other fly in the ointment are all the people, many many many of them who would never be allowed a dog from any self respecting, healthy breeding and rearing, ethical breeder so the engine for breeding to lower standards continues to be driven. 

It is very much part of the Sedish culture. The American Kennel Club have tried going down a similar route re only registering pups with all health checks etc - result they have lost half their registrations. Now if that meant these pups were no longer being bred then maybe not a bad thing, however they are still being produced and registered with alternative registeries.

Such a system here would be the same UNLESS there was legislation to enforce it.

Financially it is causing the AKC huge problems.

I wasn't aware that any health tests were mandatory in the USA for AKC registration, certainly not last year, as a bitch I bred had her first litter just days after her second birthday so didn't have her official hip scoring done until after the litter were born.

Must admit I was a little shocked, but she did come in season two months early and they wanted a pup to show at the National breed Speciality which is every other year.

Could it be a culture thing?  Many of us health test etc. here in the UK but the GP do not realise this so they are more than happy to go off to certain companies and buy a pup that is puppy farmed, or go on the free ad sections and get a dog that is nothing like the breed that they wanted.


Surely the simple answer is what the relevant KC has put into educating Joe Public. How else would they know about it..........

> Surely the simple answer is what the relevant KC has put into educating Joe Public. How else would they know about it..........

If you have an existing culture of buying only registered dogs you can capitilise on that without the public being aware, although they may become so as certificates start to appear on documents for instance, so I am not sure that is the simply answer.  What, for instance, do the Swedish KC do in terms of education that the UK KC could adopt?  I wonder how much the different countries KCs share communications and observations anyway.  I would rather think they do in this day and age.

> The American Kennel Club have tried going down a similar route re only registering pups with all health checks etc - result they have lost half their registrations. Now if that meant these pups were no longer being bred then maybe not a bad thing, however they are still being produced and registered with alternative registeries.
>
> Such a system here would be the same UNLESS there was legislation to enforce it.
>
> Financially it is causing the AKC huge problems.

The only restriction the AKC have for registering pups is that the Dam is over 8 months old,they don't require any health testing whatsoever.You can buy an AKC registered puppy in a mall :( The only restriction they ever bought in was for sires to be DNA tested if they produced more than a certain amount of litters,this was to restrict the mass puppy farmers but has no relevance to any one else.The AKC have less restrictions than the KC..

http://www.akc.org/reg/registeralitter.cfm

As I'm Swedish, and a breeder, I'll try to explain about dog breeding in Sweden.

First of all, you have to remember that in Sweden lives less than 9 million people. The number of breeders in each breed of dogs, is far, far smaller than in England. So is also the number of people intrerested in buying each breed. In my breed, RR, I'd say we're at the moment around 25-30 active breeders. This varies of course, you get new breeders that have one or two litters, and then disappear from the breed again. Approximately 300-350 RR pups are bred each year.  Our breed isn't one of the largest in numbers, of course, but average, I'd say.

All this shows how small the dog world in Sweden is, compared to Great Britain. The Swedish KC is the only organisation that counts. (there IS a Club for crossbreeds, but it's not at all as active as it was about 10 years ago, in fact I think it's slowly dying) For at least the last fifteen years, health programs have been decided for each breed, and the test results have been official. As Marianne wrote above, each dog must be tested according to the relevant programme for its breed, sometimes known status is enough. It all depends on the breed's health programme, and this you must be aware of as a breeder. To be able to register a dog with the KC, you must be a member, and abide with the KC regulations. If you break their rules, you'll get excluded, and can't register your puppies.

All this means that a KC registered dog is bred by someone who HAS TO health test, in some breeds mentality test, not over breed their bitches, sell only vet checked, chipped, vaccinated, wormed and insured pups.  To the puppy buyer, KC reg. means certain guarantees. Of course you get crossbreeds, and people that buy them, but even in ads for a cross you'll see "vet checked, vaccinated and insured" because that's what the buyers expect.
Breed specific rescues don't excist. There are a few rescue centers in Sweden, apart from the one mentioned by Marianne. But they also take in cats and other pets. Most breed clubs have a space on their website for dogs that need rehoming, most dogs that need rehoming go back to the breeder though, and get rehomed by him or her.
Puppy farms don't excist as such. Some breeders DO breed quite a few litters per year, but all the pups are sold by the breeder, it's forbidden by law to sell pups in shops. Neither can you buy kittens there. Only birds, fish, and hamsters, rabbits and guinepigs (sp?). And mice and such, of course. And the KC rules states how often,and how many litters each bitch can have. Which means you can't over breed a bitch and get away with it. Sweden is far too small for anyone to try that, if someone is a KC member, and tries to sell unregistered pups, it'll be out in no time, they'll get reported to the KC, and excluded.

Some of you say that it's no use enforcing health tests, the public doesn't care. I don't agree. Here the fact that KC reg. pups are a guarantee of checked parents, has in itself been a way to attract puppy buyers. Not at first, but over time people get aware of the difference, and next time they buy a dog they want a KC reg pup. If there is no difference between a KC reg. and non reg. pup, why should the awerage person looking for a companion choose the registered one? Only by being higher standard can you over time turn people around.

It has worked here, maybe because we are a small country. I don't know. But I'm all in favour of health tests, that are registered and official for everyone to look up on the internet. I can look up any Swedish registered dog on the KC website, and get all the health test results, the mentality test result, and all its placings at Championship shows. Then I can check all its relatives, and offspring if I'm interested. A great tool when you are a breeder. And the dogs benefit from it.
I'm sorry this got so long.
Karen

The same open registry with the Finnish Kennel club.  I can check the health status that of parents, inbreeding co-efficients etc.

"The same open registry with the Finnish Kennel club.  I can check the health status that of parents, inbreeding co-efficients etc. "

Yes, isn't it great! :-D

And also with the Norwegian Kennel Club.  It makes researching our Scandinavian pedigrees comparatively easy.  Lucky Elkhound breeders!

You can link from your own webpage directly to your dog's information on the Swedish Kennel Club so that anyone can see the pedigree, health tests, show results, offspring etc.  It's absolutely wonderful.

Thanks for jumping in and explaining further, I was starting to feel like nobody could understand the benefits! It's not rocket science, the KC here could quite easily impose the same rules -only health tested dogs to be bred from. Sure, some people would then go and register elsewhere, or form another registry or whatever -so LET them! The people then NOT buying KC reg dogs are the ones without any guarantees, and they will only have themselves to blame if things go wrong. The KC will have done all they can! Show breeders will NT be to blame. If KC registration equaled more guarantees, people would eventually realise it's the way to go when buying a puppy. It wouldn't even take a lot -publicity in dog magazines (the pet magazines as opposed to the dog papers), notices in vets waiting rooms, some general newspaper articles would be great and the word would spread.

Obviously the UK cat fancy is a lot smaller than the dog fancy, but even so, the following story just goes to show what CAN be done. Less than ten years ago the genetic kidney disease PKD was discovered in Persians and Exotics. This was in the US. It took some time before the word started spreading to the UK, and at first many breeders, myself included, shrugged it off with "it's only in American cats".  But it became more and more known, largely due to the internet, and UK breeders started testing. I resisted as testing at the time was very expensive and very time consuming,  as there were only TEN places in the entire UK that could test, and you had to travel there. For myself, it meant a 3 hour journey. So I reasoned that as my cats weren't dying young of kidney problems I didn't have it in my lines.

But then the pet cat magazines started writing about it. And suddenly both myself and my best friend found that we could no longer sell pet kittens. Pet buyers suddenly knew about PKD, and would only buy from tested parents.  That's all it took, a few articles in the pet cat magazines. So I started testing my cats -and roughly 50 % were positive. I lost all my show cats. I had no choice but to breed from those LESS good as they were my only healthy cats.  Years later and I am still very much struggling. In 2001 I made up FOUR Champions, since then, nothing. I've had to start all over. But I can hold my head up and say I only breed from negative cats and I have no problem selling pet quality kittens as the buyers know they will be negative of PKD. So I believe it can be done.

Thanks for jumping in and explaining further, I was starting to feel like nobody could understand the benefits! It's not rocket science, the KC here could quite easily impose the same rules -only health tested dogs to be bred from.

Oh MarianneB, I totally agree with their system. I think there is some really good positive things that could " with time" be adopted over here.      I think it is not one or two things that make it work out their but a combination of a group of things including rules and education.

Also for me shows that my boy over here who had an excellent hipscore in his country of origin but a high one here in the UK has a number of pups and grandchildren with very good hipscores in Sweden and Finland and a couple with not brilliant but not awful scores either!

their or there even.  My typing is getting worse by the year. :-)

One big difference that these kennel clubs have to UK kennel club is they stand at the heart of any dog hobbyist.
Finnish Kennel club publishes a magazine 10 times a year that all members get. This magazine has the highest publication numbers of ANY hobbyist magazine in Finland!
The kennel club has over 130 000 members, this is a country with 5 million people so you can see how popular club kennel club really is.
This is how they have their hold on people and how they can educate the public.
Anybody who is thinking of getting a puppy is likely to know somebody who is a member of the kennel club and will probably educate them and loan few of the magazines to read...

Members are just normal people with dogs, the magazine really is good read for anybody interested in dogs even if you do not show or work your dog.
The articles cover very wide area of issues that can be an interest to a "just a pet dog owner".
The magazine can also be bought from most shops, I picked my latest one at the airport cafe shop on my way back to England(so it is very easy to buy the magazine, even if you are not a member)!
The usual showing, working etc are covered but so is for example elderly dog care, puppy training, trick training... you name it, if it has something to do with dog you might find it in the magazine!
The magazine really is very informative and I am yet to find something similar in UK...None of the dog magazines even come close when it comes to real information and how correct the information printed is.
I don't think Finnish Kennel club relies other organisations to push the importance of the registration of the pup but they do it themselves but being close to the public not being up high somewhere where normal pet owner doesn't even dare to look!

I think the Swedish approach is a good one for us to adopt. The point really is to get the breeders to register their dogs, and to be able to do that they would only be able to register health tested dogs with the desired result from their test. The fact that joe public might just get a non registered crossbreed puppy is really irrelevant in this debate, it happens all the time now. The whole point is to get breeders to improve the health of their breed, and this system would certainly do that. The KC do still have a lot of clout and breeders will want to register and enter shows, any offshoot 'club' I would think is likely to be minimal and I would think be viewed with some degree of suspicion once the public understood what KC reg actually stood for.

It would take time and education, but in the meantime would bring the breeders into line and improve the health of all the pedigree dogs being bred. The KC has a really golden opportunity here, but I don't know that they are brave enough to take it. As things stand, health testing is done, but the result can be dreadful and the breeders can and do still breed and register puppies from parents with poor health.

I for one am all for it.

K

Yes it's the same in Sweden with the KC magazine. I still get it, never stopped when moving abroad, and there's always good stuff to read in it -far better than any UK magazine. BUT of course instead there are no weekly dog papers!

In my case, it means that I am an NKK member, am able to access their online database, receive the KC magazines and also those of the Norwegian Elghundklubb to which I belong - but in my native country, I cannot be a KC member, only be a member of my breed club. Although mine is a good breed club with some excellent publications of its own :-)