I mated my bitch 4 weeks ago, (all health tests done) due to be scanned next week. Had a phone call today from her breeder to say that my girls mum had her 2nd litter yesterday, needed to have a caesarean section as she had primary uterine inertia. She had 8 healthy puppies but the bitch died in recovery, she was only 4 years old we are all very sad.
My real worry now, is that i've been told that its said to be hereditary. anyone had this on the second litter or if any of the off-spring have inherited it.
very worried any help gratefully recieved.

Lynn

Hello Lynn

I had a Papillon who had two litters of 4 by c section due to inertia and neither of her daughters
or granddaughters have had any problems when they had there pups.
Maybe I have just been lucky, I don't know. 

It is always best to be prepared for every eventuality when pups are due anyway.
Then there isn't much takes you by surprise.  Except a bitch that has her pups during the
day with no problems and no vet visit required. (oh bliss)

Good luck with your girl when the time comes.

Regards
Joan

I have had girls needing C-section due to inertia, but I never breed a second litter after a section, I have the girls spayed if they don't whelp naturally.  My first ever section I stupidly kept a bitch from.  Total inertia and C-section, just like mum, so I now never keep a bitch out of a bitch that didn't whelp naturally.  All my girls go as pets with breeding restrictions because I believe it is genetic.  And I have more than enough spayed girls around the house!

jeanSW i find this interesting regarding not having another litter because it could be passed down ....do u think that slow whelping and not wanting to do anything for them selfs and having to have the last pup deliverd dead with help from vets ,this as happend with my girl with her last 2 litters ,do u think she could pass this to her girls???

So what would you do if you had a bitch that whelped her first litter naturally, then had inertia with her second?  This happened with us, our girl was spayed after the inertia.

Primary inertia and Secondary inertia are not the same thing so it isn't just as cut and dry

it is believed that Primary inertia is due to failure of the uterine muscle to work sufficiently due to a variety of physical or hormonal reasons and secondary inertia is the result of dystocia or exhaustive labor.

Have a look here page 2 , section 2 d.

http://www.cardicommentary.de/PDF-filer/Whelping_problems.pdf

Thank you all for your replies, what would be the first signs to look for if things are going wrong?
I spoke to my vets today and they said that they would book her in for a c-section before things went wrong, I was horrified, and said I would rather wait to see if she could have them naturally first, her mum was fine on her first litter.

Lynn

My girl had no labour at all, in fact I had been watching her 24/7 as when she did have the c-section it was her due date, the first we knew of things not going to plan was when she was playing with one of my other girls and the water sac was presenting, no labour at all.

> So what would you do if you had a bitch that whelped her first litter naturally, then had inertia with her second?  This happened with us, our girl was spayed after the inertia

It has happened to me Sharon.  Only to one girl, and she had her first litter normally.  I decided to have a second litter the following year, and wanted to keep a bitch from her.  She was 8 days before her due date, when I felt that she wasn't ok.  And I know a lot of people will say it's daft, but she didn't look quite right in the eyes, as if she was worried.  I decided to take her to bed with me, and went up around 10pm with a book, knowing I couldn't sleep.  She started panting during the night, and her whelps were moving around at a gallop, so no problem with oxygen.  She stopped after a few hours, and went back to normal. 

I just watched her carefully the next day, nothing happening at all, but I felt uncomfortable about something, and didn't know what.  I had to go with my instincts, although there was no sign of labour.  At 7pm I asked my vet to look at her, and he told me that she wasn't dilated, didn't have milk, and was not in labour.  I insisted that she "wasn't right".  He just told me to call the on call vet out if anything happened, and to watch her (not that I needed telling.)  Her waters broke at 10.55pm and she didn't have a single contraction - I phoned the night shift within 15 minutes, I knew it wasn't worth waiting. 

Two oxytocin injections later, still nothing happened.  The C-section produced 5 pups - a huge litter for the breed, and I believe the uterus was stretched as far as it would go.  Normally, on humans and animals, the uterus starts to contract and you sew up as fast as you can.  The on call vet told me that the uterus was like a flaccid balloon, nothing there at all.  I remember coming on here demented when she wouldn't take to her pups, I was worried sick, and a lovely lady called Gwen phoned me, reassured me and gave me the best advice ever.  I will always be grateful for that. 

I kept a bitch puppy!  She was only mated once, had no contractions at all, was petrified of the pups, she had two by C-section, and I tried to hand rear, but lost one pup at 9 days, and the little girl went for pet at 12 weeks old.  Both the above girls are spayed, and much loved pets, but I can't put girls through C-sections like that, it's just not right.  My breed club states only a maximum of 2 sections out of a bitch, but that is one too many for me. 

> do u think she could pass this to her girls???

white lilly - you are going to get a mix of opinions on this one!  But yes, I'm afraid that I do. 

> what would be the first signs to look for if things are going wrong?
>

goldengirl - my vet reckoned that if I hadn't been so vigilant, that both pups and bitch would have died.  I hadn't even considered it vigilance, as I do watch the dogs closely anyway.  If you are close to them, you know what is normal for your dogs.  I just knew something "wasn't right"

It you take temperatures correctly labour can be spotted quite easily. Even with inertia , stuck puppies and everything else that goes wrong the temperature still drops and shows the normal pattern.    I know that by 36 hours after the true drop if puppies not out naturally to get them out for the sake of both.

I had this happen in a third litter, and by then the bitch was Grandmother, and none of the generations before or after had problems whelping, Inertia can occur just out of the blue, but if it seems to be happening in related animals or for subsequent litters then I would reconsider breeding.

Thank you all for replies, D-Day is now getting nearer and I'm now on tender hooks. I had my girl scanned and scanner who is also a human scanner in our local hospital and a sheep scanner, said she could see 11-12 pups but could be more, she also scanned my other bitch 2 years ago said she could see 10-11, she had 12. So I know this bitch has got a large litter, could this make things worse for her regarding primary Inertia? She is on day 50 today, whelping box out and ready and I'm now sleeping down stairs with her, on my other girls first litter 10 puppies she had them 5 days early (day 58) when should I start taking this ones temperature? I'm sorry if I sound neurotic I'm just worried sick, reading book of the bitch, the whelping and rearing of puppies and successful dog breeding at the moment so should have all the answers, but it don't stop the worrying.

Thanks in advance
Lynn

Don't know if this is of any help at all but my bitch's dam shells her puppies like peas - never any problem in three litters( I don't own mum).  My bitch's first litter had to be born via c-section due to p inertia (6 pups).  I had a 2nd litter from her this year and was really worried that it may happen again.  She started on her own on due day had 7 live pups plus 1 dead, went to vet had oxytocin, 1 live pup born and 2 dead.  Although I was very sad to lose 3 pups I had 8 live healthy pups.  I know it is worrying but I would say that you must keep a close eye on her and if any doubt at all don't delay to go to the vet.  I do hope you have a successful outcome - good luck.

I have my fingers crossed for you goldengirl.  If you are already sleeping down stairs with her, at least you are going to be aware of early whelping with no delays.  And I don't think you're neurotic, you are concerned for your girl, and if you weren't it would be worrying to us all.  I too, have whelping box and necessities ready early, you are doing good, and you are in the best position to know your own girl.  I go with my gut instinct with mine, and I know you will do the same when your girl starts.  It sounds like you could have puppies by next weekend then?  No good saying that you musn't worry yourself sick!  But when it starts, don't pass on any worry to your girl.  I am sure that you will pick up on anything wrong, and have your vets phone number, and mobile at the ready.  Please don't forget to come on and tell us what you get!  Best of luck - Jean.

All I an say is good luck and thank God I have never had such large litters with my girls with 4 to 7 seeming to be the norm.

Well the time is near, she is on day 58 today and now her temperature has dropped to 36.7, she is heavy panting on and off, also sleeping on and off. She did eat this morning, but has refused her lunch.
She does go in and out of her whelping box where she has vet bed and a couple of pads of newspaper, she's not nesting, ripping up her bedding or shredding the newspaper.
I have rung the vets and they operate 24/7 so no problems there. just playing the waiting game now and keeping fingers crossed that all goes well.

If she is that low ( temp I mean) and it has been prolonged ie the real drop and not fluctuating up and down she is on her way.    I note it 6am, 12 noon, 6 pm and midnight ( or 4 times in 24 hours BUT every 6 hours)  and I always get the drop spot on.

For me 36.7 prolonged means pups should start arriving within the the next 24-36  hours. 

Edited to add I wish you very good luck. :-)

Thanks Blue, So by prolonged do you mean if you took it at 6am and it was 36.7 then took it again 12 noon it was 36.7 would it stay 36.7 until puppies were born or has it been known to go up or down within the 24-36 hours, I've now had 2 low readings 36.7 & 36.8, six hours apart, does this mean i'm going  to get some sleep tonight if it moves higher or lower when I take it at 10pm.

Lynn

Hi Lynn

Just wanted to say all the best of luck!!!

Keep us updated when you get a sec :-)

As Blue said if her temp has been 37 point something for the last few days, and is now 36.7/8, that should be the drop and you should have puppies soon :-).  Even if the temp goes up when you take it later I wouldn't be leaving her tonight.  So you might not get much sleep!
My bitch had temp of 37 point something every day, from day 52 then 36.6/8 on day 58, puppies early day 59 :-).
Good Luck.

If it was 36.7 at 6am, them 36.7 at 12 Noon   that to me would be my drop  .  If however it went up and down everytime you checked it then I may just be natural fluctuation although I personally have never had one at 36.6/36.7 that has not whelp or started to whelp in 48 hours.  In old money that is 98 F which is generally the low trigger for me.

Of course assuming your themometer etc is all working well. I often have two on the go as a double checker.

You will hear people dismiss the temperature taking, sometimes on here and sometimes elsewhere and you will get those who don't do it at all because " they are always there"  we are always there to BUT the reason I do it as it is my gauge all is well. If labour is not in full swing within 36 I would be concerned and start to consider if a section is required.  

The two times that I have not had puppies on the way or progressive labour 36 hours after the real drop both have needed sections. This has been evident when they have been opened up by the vet.   So for me it is my danger warning

I'm seriously not trying to make you worry at all and hopefully she will said through it but just letting you know it is the method that works very successfully for me.

Thanks everyone, I have been taking her temperature for the last 7 days 3-4 times a day, first day 38.2 - 38.6, the last 6 days 37.3 - 37.8 then today first drop 11am 36.7 then 4pm 36.8 tonight 10pm 37.2. She is still restless and heavy panting, but also sleeping a lot.
Will keep you updated how its going.
Blue - will keep in mind if nothing progress's in the next 23 hours (36 hours from the drop) will call the vets about a section.

Heres to a sleepless night.

Had a good nights sleep, she is resting quite a lot, still not eating much put breakfast down and she turned her nose up at it, so feeding her just little things she really likes from my hand. She was sick this morning, not food, white frothy bile.
She is sleeping at the moment conserving her energy.

Will keep you updated.

Lynn

Hi Lynn

How's it going?

Any more news? 

Fingers crossed her absence is being busy with arrivals..

Hi All, nothing happening yet, I am going blue in the face talking to the vets, because she is only on day 60 they wont listen, they say she is not distressed and discharge is clear so want to leave her longer.

She is sleeping most of the time, not eating much, although I'm offering her food from my hand every hour or so.
She has been sick every day for the last 3 days.

Do you think the vet is right and I should just leave her longer or should I protest a little louder.

Lynn

Are the pups still high up, active and moving?

Are you still tracking her temp?  what has it been like  have your recorded the 4 readings?

It sounds like she is getting near.   often very hard to advise without being there.

JG has asked if they are high up? can you tell ?

No pups have dropped very low her belly, can see a divide of the ribcage and the bump, it is very tight, hard and hanging down to the level of her hock almost.
The pups seem to have moved back, Very active yesterday like doing back flips, today still have movements just very gentle like waves.

Blue - Yes still taking her temperature, its staying at 37.5 -37.9 not going higher or lower.

Has all the panting stopped now?  Can you still see movements from the pups?  If you are worried you could just take her down to the vets for them to check heartbeats are all ok.

Yes all the panting has stopped, Puppies are still moving and can hear heart beats with the stethoscope not sure how many but where ever you hold it I can hear heart beats.
Think I will take her to the vets tomorrow just to make sure all is well.

My bitch on her last litter dropped her temp to 36.9 on day 59, it stayed down for 24 hours (taken every 4 hours during this time) then it came back up to 37.6 for one reading and then dropped and stayed down for another 5 days - YES 5 days!!!!  THEN labour started and we had a healthy litter all born within 4 hours on day 66.  Before she started labouring there was talk of intertia and I was being bullied by a 'friend' who also keeps my normally good whelping breed, to get her sectioned!!!  Boy am I glad I didn't!!  My girl appeared to be uncomfortable and paced for a few minutes a few times a day and digged at night during those 5 days - otherwise she was ok, no abnormal vaginal loss and the whelps were moving ok.

I hasten to add that I had her checked at the vet and it was decided that as long as all was well, we would wait.  We put a limit of Day 70 on it.

Out of interest, how many times was she mated?

I seriously wish you all the luck in the world - there's nothing like the worry of waiting.

She was only mated the once, on day 13, with a 35 minute tie. We traveled quite far to the stud dog, and if it wasn't a good a good tie would have gone back 48 hours later, but I was happy with just the one mating.

The lady who scans mine is coming over today, just to make sure all is well and the first ones haven't turned sideways and still have heartbeats.
Temperature still holding out at 37.2 - 37.5 she's still not eating and still being sick usually once or twice a day.
Her whelping box was turned upside down through the night (well.. the contents inside, vetbed and newpaper).

Will have her checked by the vets after the scan if alls not well.

Lynn

HI Lynn,

I would hazzard a guess that the temp has went back up so although she is close she is not ready and you didn't get the real drop.

I know it is so stressful at this time as you want to ensure you are doing everything right.  It won't be long.   Keep as calm as you can.

Had her scanned at 10 o clock, everything was fine good strong heartbeats, they have now moved back and are ready to be born none are sideways, so good news.

After scanner left things have progressed, she is panting really heavy and staying in her whelping box, normally she's in and out of it a minute at a time, she is nesting with avengence paper flying every where.
Then she looks at her rear end has a little whine and starts digging her bed again.

So hopefully they will be here soon.

They are so clever dogs you know..

The staying in the bed and looking behind is always a good sign they are very close.

fingers and toes all crossed.

Oh, how exciting, will keep checking in for good news very soon, all the best!

any news for us?

No news yet hopefully that means you have had a busy & successful night, will check for more news later.

Sorry, NO news yet, been up all night, still very heavy panting, lots of on/off yelping. She has free access to her whelping box but she refuses to come out of it, got her out once in the night for a wee on lead in the garden.
She is still not eating but I have put glucose in her water and she is drinking small amounts often.
I am shattered so I really feel for her. I have rung the vets and just waiting for them to call back at 9am. I really don't know how long I should be leaving like this, Oh she has not slept at all and she is shaking her temperature is 36.7 and has been all evening and night.

Lynn

It does sound like she is ready - they can shake before - have her waters broken?  You may not have noticed it as it could appear that it is a wee.  I really find it helpful if I can get them moving by putting them on the lead and walk briskly round the garden (taking a towel with me just in case).  Bit like women in labour better than laying on your back.  She may stop do do what you think is a poo and hopefully it will be a puppy.  The first one is usually the hardest one - just need the first one out.  Hope your vet has been able to give you some advice.  If no pups soon I would insist on a visit for an examination - you do not want to leave it to long so a check on heart beats will be vital.  Good luck.

No her waters have not broken, although she has a clear discharge it's not enough to be the plug. Vets have offered to do an elective c-section today, but I not sure I want to go down that road just yet, so going to keep an eye on the discharge for a any colour change and also her distress level. will get her out in the garden on lead every hour or so for a brisk walk.
Getting the matchsticks out for my eyes now. Just hope I have a stunning bitch in this litter for showing my luck they will all be boys.

Yes but boys are just as lovely and don't drop their coat so often!!

Just keep an eye that the pups are still okay - I agree it wouls be a shame to do a c-section if not vital but please be careful.

Yes you're boys are just as nice, if not nicer, when looking in the puppy pen on previous litters my husband and I always pick out the boys as being the nicest.
But having 2 young children I could not trust them not to leave doors opened and I couldn't send him or my girls away through seasons.
Maybe when the kids leave home.
I go to crufts every year to see a boy a bred 4 years ago, he's stunning.

Sorry for delay in reply had to pop out, is your girl trying to push at all, we had similar exactly twelve months ago we got her to the vet for examination & they gave her an oxytocin jab to help her on the way she delivered first pup within 10 mins & 7 within 1 1/2 hour then we had quite a wait before 2 more alive & last 2 dead on arrival perfectly formed but labour just took to long they were both out of sacks, I did wish we had gone to vets earlier it might have saved them. She was so exhausted from the previous day that when it came to delivering the last 4 she was running out of energy.

Previous litter (different bitch) was c-section middle of the night job with 14 fit & healthy pups I know it is nicer for natural birth but dion't put off visit to vets, but don't be bullied into c-section vets do sometimes tend to see the £ signs, rather than try oxytocin which is often all it takes.

Good luck any way keep us posted.

Panic all most over, 1 little boy pup.
Got to go.