I have been talking to alot of breeders in the past few weeks and nearly all of them have told me that they have a clause for their pups which prohibits the buyer/owner from breeding. Now, I have no intention of breeding I am wondering a. how this is enforced and b. what the legal situation is if someone should breed with such a dog?

Also, if I pay alot of money for a dog then I would assume the dog is mine, i.e. 100%?

I do perfectly understand the reasoning behind this clause but am wondering re the above.

Any input very welcome.  

What most reputable breeders do is put endorsements on the registration of their pups which forbid the registration of any pups that that dog might produce. This endorsement can be lifted by the breeder at any time, usually on condition that the dog has grown up and found to be of suitable good health and conformation to be an asset to the future of the breed. This usually means that it's been tested for the breed-relevant hereditary conditions and that the results have been satisfactory, and also that it's been independently assessed as being a good example of its breed - this is most easily done by success in shows or in field trials.

The endorsement doesn't stop the new owner breeding from the dog - it just means that those puppies cannot be registered.

In the dog world, endorsement of the registration documents like this is generally seen as a good thing. It's the only method a breeder has available to them to protect the dogs they breed from exploitation.

Of course though, if a person is determined to breed from an endorsed dog, they will, and as such, no law will be broken, however, the Kennel Club will not register the puppies, and that may influence the value of the litter and the reputation of the ''breeder''.

Dawn R.

Thank you for your answers. I am playing Devil's Advocate now as I am really interested. Let's say the person who buys the pup then moves to let's say the US. Does the same still apply there? Will the equivalent of the KC over there also not reg the pups?

Or let's say the pup has all grown up and passed all the health tests etc and the breeder still refuses to give his or her ok? What then?

You will find that puppies with progeny restrictions will also have export restrictions in place also.. ..

> Or let's say the pup has all grown up and passed all the health tests etc and the breeder still refuses to give his or her ok? What then?

Depends what has been agreed in the contract.  If people are buying a puppy with the intention to show and breed they are really best to ensure the breeder understands that is their intention and ensure that these details are agreed in explicit terms, ie just what showing results are expected and just what health screening results and get it in writing.  If you don't it is just down to the breeders notion as to what is suitable or not and whether they consider the owner as having a lifestyle suitable or a continuing interest to make them suitable breeders in turn.

Its certainly normal in my breed. its really just a question of protecting the breed and for those of us who care about the breed and its future, as well as the future and protection of our lines and our good names, then its extra protection. you say you have spoken to lots of breeders....all in the same breed or different breeds?

as I said, I understand the reasoning behind it perfectly and totally agree with it but was wondering about the enforcement/legality etc.

I have spoken with 8 breeders who breed various breeds from toy to GSD. 3 of which are my friends and couldn't really answer my questions which is why I ask them here.

As with rehoming contracts in rescue nothing is foolproof and I was just wondering how breeders control and/or enforce such contracts. The laws are different from country to country and I have consulted 3 different solicitors when I drew up my rehoming contract for the rescue to ensure it was as solid as possible.

Don't worry, Sam, none of the peeps I spoke to bred bloodhounds ;).

why on earth would i be worried who you spoke to?????

I had a situation earlier this year that brought the legalities of breeding into question.

Nutshell:  had a puppy buyer lined up but began to doubt her motives as the weeks went on and I felt that I could not trust her to stick to the contract despite the endorsements on the pups papers.  As no contract had yet been signed, I politely informed her that she would not be having the puppy and informed her of my reasons why.

I spoke to a couple of friendly "legal eagles" who confirmed that if this person bought the puppy, had signed the contract and it had been witnessed by a neutral person, if said puppy buyer broke the terms of the contract i.e breeding before certain age and without health tests and confirmation then they would have broke the terms of the contract and this could be persued legally, most probably by a small claims court where some financial penalty would be incurred (if the claim was different i.e wanting the pup back - I don't know how that would be handled).  But, IMO, by that point, the damage would be done, and I learned a very good lesson about going with gut instinct on puppy buyers. 

A breeders contract is a genuine legal document if signed by both parties and witnessed but I do not believe this has been tested yet, but someone else on here might know otherwise.

Ahm, Sam, that was a joke...?!

Mini, thank you, I think it is shaky legal ground as well but as I said, I am not a legal eagle myself. which is why I was wondering and posted my questions.

Legally I suppose there is nothing to prevent anyone from actually breeding all the endorsements do is prevent the offspring being registered.

So it doesn't actually protect the dogs from irresponsible breeding but does protect to some extent the breeders bloodlines.  Hopefully would be breeders are put off breeding if they cannot register the pups in most breeds as the demand and price for unregistered stock is far less.  Sadly in some breeds the price of unregistered pups is still worthwhile for an irresponsible person, especially as they are unlikely to incur the expenses of not only registration but health testing too.

In my breed we Hip score, Eye test, blood test for kidney function, and now have a brand new DNA PRCD-PRA test which costs around £100 and blood needs to be taken and sent to USA.

This means for me to health test a bitch will be around £200 to Hip score, Eye test for single dog up to £39.00 plus petrol, Kidney blood test £60, DNA test £100 plus petrol and cost of blood drawing (most recently over £50 plus cost for Vet signing paperwork).

That is easily over £400 before you have even tried to mate a bitch and paid a stud fee of the price of a puppy, and travel.

BYB would be saving £1000 off the bat, and the reg fees.

In some breeds like Border collies there are four DNA tests plus the Hips, Annual eye test etc.

For a less conscientious person breeding without the necessary testing is quite tempting, so endorsements at least help make it less viable and tempting.

Thank you for your post.

I have never understood what's tempting about breeding unless you a. really know what you are doing and b. have the time and the resources necessary. Even with all that I still wouldn't fancy looking after a litter of pups ;).

> Even with all that I still wouldn't fancy looking after a litter of pups

quite rightly, its a nightmare! (lovely though)

£'s are why they do it :(

astarte are you saying that i breed for £££££???????

Hi folks,
I have been lurking on this thread and was wondering what the responses would be
as I have a clause in my contract, too. This is in relation to the occurance of old-
age onset epilepsy in "my" breed (though none reported yet in my dogs' lines) and
the efforts on part of the breed club to eliminate the condition.

Having had a chat with a legal person I was told that none of the how ever well
meant clauses in person-to-person contracts (be it for sale, fostering, mating)
are legally binding (on a moral scale this is something different). Once the money
is paid and the contract is signed this is it. The ownership of and sole responsibility
for the dog is transferred to the new owner as this is the base of the close of the
deal. EVERYTHING else including various clauses cannot be claimed in a court of law
UNLESS the breeder is registered as a business and the clauses of the contract are
laid out as terms and conditions of the deal (see: Terms and Conditions apply-clause).
Having said that, this is the lay of the land in Germany (where I send dogs to).

I found this very interesting because as it seems to be frowned upon to be a "commercial
dog seller" - I am using this term for want of better phrase, any suggestions welcome -
having a registered business status seems to help clarify certain issues and secure the
monitoring of the future of our dogs.

> I have never understood what's tempting about breeding unless you a. really know what you are doing and b. have the time and the resources necessary. Even with all that I still wouldn't fancy looking after a litter of pups

Quite agree, though sadly some people only see a litter as cash.

Some don't realise that a litter costs, and others will cut corners/costs as the bottom line is money, not the quality of the pups or the welfare of them their breed and their new owners.

Sadly there are more pups produced by such people than conscientious breeders..

Blimey Sam, what's with the paranoia

I read Astartes post to say,if they aren't interested in A or B (below) then they breed for the money.Meaning unscrupulous breeders.

>a. really know what you are doing and b. have the time and the resources necessary.

not paranoia....I just read what was written........"Even with all that I still wouldn't fancy looking after a litter of pups......£'s are why they do it"
and that sounds like the poster thinks £££ are the reason why people breed.

in most european countries there is no such thing as "endorsement" or like in USA  the "limited register".
Selling a dog is giving the 100% responsability to his new owner. The owner can do what ever he/she wants!
One good reason more to try to find the best possible new owners for your puppy .. try to be honest and showing your concern for the breed .. and  hoping to convince them that all you ask them is for the benefir/best intentions you have with your breed/dogs.
Sure i have contracts .. but I am very well aware of the fact that if it would come to certain complications/problems .. the owner has all the rights legaly to do whatever he/she wants!
Ofcourse it stops when the dogs wellbeing is in danger ...
but allowing them yes or no to breed from that dog .. we dont have any say in it!
keeping in touch with your puppybuyers, being there if there are any questions, contacting them yourself .. just showing your intrest can avoid a  lot! Good contact  with them is priority nr 1.

I thought in France that the pups didn't get their registration papers until later once proven decent examples/health tested, or is that another European country???

In Germany, the SV(for GSDs) they do not register puppies from parents that have not been breed surveyed & had all their health tests done, if they are not top class examples(but not totally cr*p)they only get a white pedigree & these dogs don't usually get bred from. The dogs that pass the breed survey & are good examples have pink pedigrees

thats correct! my GSD comes from Korzucht( mixture of top work and show quality)
but here in france we get registrationform: certificate de naissance, a sort of bithcertificat! when dog is 15 month or more( depending on the breed) you need to go for confirmation, they check all etc .; dog needs to be healthy, look  according the standard : then you get the official registration in the kennelclub. without official registration /conformation from both parents the produced puppies wont get the birthcertif;

in cz its slightly different...you have all the papers so can exhibit etc, but, if you want to register the puppies the parents have to pass their breeding test, where they are assessed by 3 breed specialists and graded before they can be bred from.

> here in france we get registrationform: certificate de naissance, a sort of bithcertificat! when dog is 15 month or more( depending on the breed) you need to go for confirmation, they check all etc .; dog needs to be healthy, look  according the standard : then you get the official registration in the kennelclub. without official registration /conformation from both parents the produced puppies wont get the birthcertif;

So what you said in your previous post

" in most european countries there is no such thing as "endorsement" or like in USA  the "limited register".
Selling a dog is giving the 100% responsability to his new owner. The owner can do what ever he/she wants! "

wasn't correct?

Don't forget the breed club also carries out temprement testing, to ensure suitablility to be bred from only then will it issue a breeding licence to that dog for that year.

as we dont have limited register, or endorsement it is up to what the owner wants to do with his dog/bitch!
indeed: once sold .. it is the new owners responsability ! thats why i try to keep in touch with the owners of our dogs!  those who are sold abroad immediately get an "exportpedigree" as in most countries they have their own rules regarding breeding, registering etc.
i do have a sales contract asking to do all possible test, ask for advice when breeding, go to some seminars .; and get member of breedclub( they have their code of ethics!) Yet .. when they have bought the dog .. and dont want to follow my advice ... nothing i can do about that!

forgot to point out:
all pups out of parents that are fully registered/being confirmed DO GET A BIRTHCERTIF!
BUT when wanting to breed  both parents NEED that confirmation  etc! to be able to breed and get their progeny registered(= getting birthcertificat for the pups=)

I am still confused?  so if you register pups from parents with full pedigrees the new owners can bred from them as they choose, or do they still have to get full pedigrees for them, which in effect means that all pups are initially "endorsed" but it is the Kennel club/breed club? who decide if the dog is suitable not the breeder as it is here when the breeder can remove the endorsement, or in USA change to full registration?

  the new owners get the birthcertificate! if they temselves want to breed they also need to get the confirmation with their dog! only dogs who have the confirmation  are allowed to be bred from! ofcourse ..   if they want they can always breed  with their dogs .. without getting pedigree for them ... sofar i have not had the experience that someone  had a litter from any of our dogs without  doing it in the official way!
but i am sure there will be some around who dont care about the breed, dont care about pedigrees .. but guess you see that in every country!

That sounds exactly the same as having the papers endorsed, except we have the restriction put on and then removed if appropriate, and in France you start off with all papers restricted, and have to apply for full papers.

In UK the breeder determines if and when this happens but in France it is the Kennel club, yes?

So you do have restricted papers after all.

There is nothing to physically stop a person physically breeding from their dogs under either system.  I would imagine that the French system is more restrictive than our endorsements.

Hi all

Can I throw something else into the pot?  If a contract is signed confirming that the puppy will not be bred at all and that breeding restrictions are in place, also that the breeder has the right to claim back the puppy is there is evidence of abuse/neglect, would breeding on a first season (7 months old) be classed as abuse/neglect and entitle the breeder to remove the puppy?

> also that the breeder has the right to claim back the puppy is there is evidence of abuse/neglect

I don't think a breeder can ever legally demand such a thing.

>also that the breeder has the right to claim back the puppy is there is evidence of abuse/neglect

Once the puppy has been sold the breeder has no rights whatsoever to reclaim the puppy, under any circumstances, no matter what has been agreed previously.

That's what I wondered, legally do any of you think that contracts are ever worth the paper they are written on?  I have heard of breeders taking back puppies when they are not happy with the treatment but I suppose these must be cases where the owners are in agreement. 

> I have heard of breeders taking back puppies when they are not happy with the treatment but I suppose these must be cases where the owners are in agreement. 

Or owners brow beaten into thinking they are legally obliged ;-) which is always worth a try I suppose if you should ever be so unfortunate as to find yourself in that position. 
I view my contract as more as a reminder and encouragement that I really am their best option should their circumstances change but I think you need to rely most heavily on your vetting if you want to avoid the situation were you would ever want to take charge as I don't think it would stand up legally..

Yes I agree, I have not had the problem luckily :-). Good to know for future reference.

hello all, sorry this is on a totally different subject. I'm new to this site, can anyone tell me a good place to start looking for my first puppie? I'm very confused as I all I seem to read about is these puppy farms or illegitamate shops. I want to do this the right way bit need advice desperately! Ty

If you have still to decide on a breed you could start here or if it is just a breeder you are looking for now move on to here.

thanks so much, could u recommend a breed? I would like a small dog but not too bothered about looks, I would also prefer a dog that does not shed as much as some dogs ?

If you have no preference for looks have you considered a rescue?  Your local rescue kennels will likely have small mixed breeds, particularly after Christmas.  They may have puppies but certainly will have young dogs that you could consider too.

is there many problems assosciated with mixed breeds?  Also is a rescue dog suited to me as this will be my first dog, do many people still give puppies as Xmas presents?!!! If this is the case I think I may wait for this option.

I'm sure that despite, 'a dog is for life, not just for Christmas', many pups are still given as Xmas pressies, unfortunately. :-(

> Also is a rescue dog suited to me as this will be my first dog

The rescue society should help you choose the right dog for you and your circumstances. 

er.. it was a while ago but i'm sure i wasn't.

> and that sounds like the poster thinks £££ are the reason why people breed

not true at all sam, you have misinterpreted me, especially as i think you know i've been involved in breeding a litter before. i would not suggest you were breeding for money, far from it as i know you are very respected for your lovely dogs.