If a breed isn't scheduled at an Open Show judged on the Group show, I always thought you had no choice but to enter AVNSC (unless Puppy or Veteran), and win that to be eligible to go in for Group judging.  But on this particular schedule it has breed classes following by eg. AV Pastoral, followed by Group judging.  The AVNSC is on in the afternoon - so no point entering that - but is just AV eligible to compete in Group?

If there's just an AV for the group then I would enter that.  They should really have an AVNSC per group if it's judged on the group system!

Hi - it might be that they have allocated that ring - not that it will necessarily run to time if that makes sense.  So even if the AV Pastoral finishes the group judging won't necessarily begin straight after - had this with handling classes once - thought it would just run on but no just meant that had allocated a ring!

So possibly this is the case here?

Well, I'm not sure, in my case it's Pastoral, so it has got a few breed classes, AV Pastoral and under that it says, followed by Group judging, so sounds as though it will carry straight on.  Then AVNSC has only got a Puppy class and an Open class, and is later in combined rings by the looks of it..

Right, no there's not AVNSC per group - just a Puppy and an Open, for everybody.

Having shown rare breeds all my life, I am very accustomed to the rules for AVNSC and AV classes with shows held on the Group system.

If the show is NOT held on the group system, then any dog can enter an AV class and still qualify to go into Best in Show/Best Puppy in Show.

If the show IS held on the Group system, to be eligible for entry into the Group, the dog MUST be an unbeaten dog from a breed class OR AVNSC only.  The only exception to this is for puppies who do not have a breed puppy class sheduled, in which case they can be entered in the AV puppy classes, BUT if they are unbeaten, they can ONLY go forward to the Puppy Group (not the adult group).  As far as I am aware, veterans are under the same rules as any other dog, so they would have to win Best of Breed/AVNSC to be eligible for the Group competition (however, i am not 100% on that part!).

I would suggest that for the show you are entering, that you contact the Secretary and point out that the AVNSC class, according to the schedule, is being held 'after' the Group Judging, as there is not AVNSC class given within the particular groups.  Therefore, they CAN NOT hold the judging of ANY group that does not have a separate AVNSC class, until AFTER the judging of the AVNSC class for those breeds as the dog that is awarded Best AVNSC is eligible to compete in it's respective Group.  If the Secretary is not willing to alter when the Groups are judged, then I would suggest you call the KC, or recommend that Secretary calls the KC to clarify the ruling.  It is easy for them to post a change of juding order on the morning of the show!

Many Secretary's (particularly those who do not show dogs that rarely have classes at Open Shows), do not understand this ruling and with the amount of Open shows we have in Wales.... we come across this same problem quite often.

Good luck, and let us know what happens!!

Millie

Hi Millie,
So is it okay to just have a Puppy AVNSC and an Open AVNSC for everybody - shouldn't they actually have one for each Group, like AVNSC Hound, AVNSC Working, etc?

For the way they want to to the Groups, they should have one per group.  However, they are perfectly ok to have one set for everyone.  If you think about it, often Ch shows will have AVNSC classes for the two/three groups on one day, but their groups are always judged after the completion of all other judging!

Your problem is that they appear to want to do the groups, before the AVNSC classes have been judged, that is not allowed to happen as per KC rules.  The AVNSC classes are considered to be 'breed' classes for those not separately scheduled, and they are treated exactly the same as any other breed class.  The AV puppy class must be before the group is judged too, as breeds that are scheduled but with no puppy class are eligible to enter this class to then go on to the puppy group, however, they are NOT allowed to enter the AVNSC puppy class.

I hope this helps, it is something that I think really needs explaining to ALL secretarys, as all too often this problem occurs!

Millie

Millie, your opinion please. There are breed classes but none for puppies, there are no AV puppy classes but there is a Puppy Stakes. My question, can a puppy be entered in the stakes class only even though there are breed classes where a best puppy in breed will be declared. And if so would this pup, should it win the puppy stakes be qualified to challenge in the BPIS ring.

I would think that the AV Stakes would not qualify, as by being a stakes class it makes it 'special'.  However, I have no idea if that is right or wrong.  I would say, if you have a breed class to enter, then I would enter the puppy in that, as in this case, as long as you are placed, and the highest placed puppy, you will be Best Puppy, but if you enter the Stakes class and win it.... I am not sure you would be eligible for the puppy group, that one I am afraid the KC would have to clarify.  I would be very interested to hear the answer.

Good luck and let me know what happens!!

Thanks

Millie

Thanks, what is your opinion on entering just the stakes class, is it allowed or do you have to enter a breed class first if one is available or does that not apply to puppies?

Were we still talking about a show on the Group system by the way? 

My answer above refers to a group show.  I think for a show not held on the group system, all class winners (unbeaten winning dogs) would be eligible to go into Best in Show/Puppy in Show. 

Hmmmm, If there is no puppy class scheduled in your breed, then you do not have to enter the breed classes.  There should be an AV Puppy class for your Group for you to enter, or if not per group, there should be a general AV puppy class for you to enter.  This is the first time I have ever seen JUST the AV Puppy Stakes class!!  There is no problem with just entering that class, and not the breed class, but as I said previously, I am not sure if winning the AV Puppy Stakes class would qualify you to go into the Puppy Group.

Millie

Em, difficult if the Stakes are after the BOS. I think I will have to seek clarity on this one from Clarges Street.

Well, I hope that the KC can tell you something useful!!  Please let us know what the result is!!

Thanks

Millie

Will do, have searched the Red Book but can't sort anything out.

hahahaha, there's a surprise!!  I always consider it a miracle when I actually find what I want in the red book! LOLOLOL!

I know, the manual they brought out is a help if you want to check if you have forgotten something but it does not help in a case like this. Problem is for the sake of the exhibitor you are loathed to make too much fuss as they are acting in innocents and you are unable to help them with a clear and definitive answer.