i just need to ask,
WHY do pet breeder who have never been near a showring in thier lives advertise there pups as show quality.
in my opinion they would not know show quality if they fell over it.
and why do they charge more than the show breeder who health test and put a lot of thought and care into planning and having a litter.

Know its a loaded question but no one i have asked who is doing this want sto answer, just want to have a go at me for asking, and to be honest i really would like to know what makes them the expert

One word answer really.

Why would anyone bum up anything they are selling in life.  ££

> ££
Totally agree, my (ahem) friend as shameful as this is, is planning to breed her bitch, I no very well they will not health test her, this is the first dog that they have ever owned, she has not even gone to any form of training classes, they know nothing about breeding, and I no full well it is pound signs that flash in front of there eyes and that is there sole reason for wanting to breed from this dog.

Its disgusting and sad but very very true.

Diane i have the same with my aunty and uncle who have a 5 month old pup. They've asked me when they can start breeding from him as they want him to make them some money   I had to stop myself going absolutely mad when they asked me and tried to put them off by informing them that its not as easy as it sounds and any breeder worth their salt would not use him as he is too young, hasnt been shown, isnt proven etc etc etc.
Why do people just look at dogs as the latest money making scheme?!!! makes me mad

One thing that doesn't help is the Newspapers who report unusually or unexpectedly large litters of pups and quote what the pups are "worth" in the first line    It gives JP the wrong impression :( especially when no mention is made of health testing, temperament, eye testing, care of the bitch etc :(

Other than that I think it's generally the way many people think these days - when I had my first Bedlington my neighbour's first words on seeing her was - how much do they 'go' for then?  He seemed disapppointed when I said about the usual and refused to name a price :)

With my last litter another neighbour who saw the last one leave said you must have made a mint out of those! - turned out he "made" far more money out of his litter of 'staff' pups (parents are only vaguely 'staffyish') - no eye tests, no papers, no other health tests, definitely not been shown or to agility, and he bought the parents out of "free ads" for a few pounds :( :(  

> Why do people just look at dogs as the latest money making scheme?!!! makes me mad

There dog is not quite a year old, she has had her first season during the summer time, i'm not sure if the breeder (and I use this term loosely) has shown her dogs, or had them health checked, I doubt this very much as there dog didn't come with a contract or any kind of puppy pack like most good breeders would, ok they did get 6 weeks free insurance and the dog is kc reg. It became clear to us quite quickly what there future intentions were, and I have tried to sway them not to do so, quoting things i've read on CD but it has fallen on deaf ears, her cousin owns a kcc (male) he is a year and asked me how can she go about breeding him OMG don't I said it's not that easy what is wrong with you both have you any idea how much hard work is involved it is not just a great scheme to make a buck, your dog's health is at risk aswell as the pups they will produce. Neither dog is suitable temprement wise, heaven knows health wise. "But they have had there jab's and the vet says there ok" woo hoo no real health checks just a quick go over, like when you take your dog in to the vets and wow they've had there jab's aren't you super! It doesn't just make me mad it makes my blood boil!

Had a few round the area I live wanting my dog to become a stud dog. I was stopped repeatedly on daily walks at one period in time and asked, I even changed the walking route as I was tired of the requests but I always seemed to bump into them. I always said no politely informed them on my dogs health problems, the risks in breeding and what health tests the animals needed yet they still pursued the same conversations  persuasion tactics: " my dogs is show quality the breeder said"  one other was how much money that could be made.

One day my son got so annoyed and blurted out "do you have wax in your ears his balls are at the vets".  The woman looked so shocked and we quickly walked away both laughing. Not once since then has she ever approached me but when we see her on our travels we always laugh about that day :)

> WHY do pet breeder who have never been near a showring in thier lives advertise there pups as show quality

It is a cash thing sadly - no two ways about it and clearly works considering how many woefully poor specimens of some breeds can be found with owners proudly talking about them 'having a pedigree as long as your arm' :(

Being realistic recent events have probably made many of these breeders drop the show connection but I'm sure in doing so many will also have raised the prices as JH, the BBC, RSPCA et al have effectively persuaded Joe Public that the last place they should buy a dog is from a 'show breeder'

We got are girl Roxi from a pet breeder, the shame :( though she did at least do the relevant health tests. There was 13 in the litter and only two bitches, she kept one and we had our girl.... I have always remembered her saying to me if you want to breed from her don't forget to charge top whack!! we should have ran the other way really.........but you learn.
I wouldn't be with out her now though :) :)

WHY do pet breeder who have never been near a showring in thier lives advertise there pups as show quality

I suspect in the first instance because they don't know any better!  I can certainly remember getting my first dog and thinking that she was the best thing since sliced bread and nobody could tell me any different.  When I started showing her I couldn't understand why she was always thrown out and the 'big breeders' kept winning.  Many years down the line, when I look at the pictures of the bitch that I loved so much, I can see why she didn't win and although she was quite well bred, she really wasn't anywhere near show quality! :(

I think the most important thing to do is to educate the puppy buying public that just because they 'only want a pet', it doesn't mean that they should have anything less than a well bred puppy with a good temperament, from health tested parents (and beyond!) that is a good representative of its breed.  And the only way they will buy one like this is to go to an experienced breeding who is involved in some sort of canine activity whether that be working, agility or in the show ring because these are the places that knowledge and experience are passed on in any quantity. 

How many times have we heard "If you don't want to show and only want a pet, then it doesn't need to be kennel club registered"?

>How many times have we heard "If you don't want to show and only want a pet, then it doesn't need to be kennel club registered"?

Too many!

It's so very difficult convincing people that, in an ideal world, every puppy that's sold as a pet would, if the owner wanted to, do well in shows. That every breeder should be trying to produce the stars, not 'just pets'. Champion status would, ideally, be simply whether the owner was interested in showing, not that the dog wasn't good enough.

Of course that would never happen - nature doesn't play the game like that, and the best-laid plans will frequently go awry. But the intention should always be to produce top-quality.

well here goes, guns at the ready everyone.

How many times have we heard "If you don't want to show and only want a pet, then it doesn't need to be kennel club registered"?

Lets have it right just because they are KC registered it doesn't mean they are health tested, good temprament, good breeding and yes people are paying the same price for a KC reg dog and un unregistered dog.  I have a friend who does not KC but has every health test done, that is her choice, I would take an unregistered dog with all health tests done over a dog with none anyday.

Linda

>I have a friend who does not KC but has every health test done

I assume she's breeding a non-recognised breed then?

No recognised breed all parents KC, offspring not.

Linda

Designer crosses?

Hi Linda

> Lets have it right just because they are KC registered it doesn't mean they are health tested, good temprament, good breeding and yes people are paying the same price for a KC reg dog and un unregistered dog

True to a degree - as with anything in life of course but let's keep things in perspective, IMO and IME the majority of KC registering breeders do their best to ensure all the boxes are ticked for health, type and temperament :)  The same cannot be said for pet/backyard/puppy farm bred dogs, can it!  The latter being responsible for the birth of far more pups across far more breeds than true devotees of pedigree dogs ;)

> I have a friend who does not KC but has every health test done, that is her choice, I would take an unregistered dog with all health tests done over a dog with none anyday

I'd be very surprised that anyone with a good quality, health tested KC registered dog would allow such a person to use their stud - I know I certainly wouldn't dream of it nor do I know personally anyone who would!  In which case where does she source her studs?  Bearing in mind that it is the dog most suited to her bitches' physical type and genetic make-up and of course excel in health, type and character which she SHOULD be using?  A tall order for most dyed in the wool breed experts BTW. Or does she have her own?

> all parents KC, offspring not

So she buys in quality KC registered stock, breeds it, but yet sells on the progeny without affording the same stamp of approval as the parents she's using   Rather hypocritical IMO ....  cheaper of course not to register them and I guess every £12 counts to some folks :(

Then her breeding will be a dead end as they will be of no use tto the breeds gene pool so what a waste, why not KC reg them if they are quality animals, so that their qualities can be utilised?

It shouldn't be either KC or health tested but always always both.

>No recognised breed all parents KC, offspring not.

If the parents are KC registered pedigrees which are of suitable quality to breed from (and they must be, or she wouldn't be breeding from them, would she?) then why crossbreed them? Why not produce more good quality pedigrees?

They are definately not crossbreeds and yess she goes to stud and the studs she has used are of excellent pedigree, good champions but prefers not to show herself.  I do not class her as a BYB.  If all the puppies that are registered with the KC I bet a high number are not tested.

Linda

>They are definately not crossbreeds

I'm lost. Why on earth doesn't she register them? If they're as good as you say, what a benefit they would be to the breed. As it is, they're wasted. Maybe she doesn't want to show - but what if her buyers eventually do? She's denied them the possibility.

>I do not class her as a BYB.

I do. She's not doing anything to improve the breed as a whole.

So they are bred to sell not to maintain/improve the breed.  To me, that's exactly what backyard breeders do and I wouldn't recommend that anyone buys from that sort of setup, health tested or not! :(

> the studs she has used are of excellent pedigree, good champions

More fool them or perhaps they're owners are just in it for the £ signs too

> If all the puppies that are registered with the KC I bet a high number are not tested

Pups, except with a small minority of breeds, are not the ones tested - their parents are!  Reputable breeders go to great lengths to health test all breeding stock and go the extra mile to keep in contact with their pups' owners over their lifetime so that any unexpected health issues which may arise become known to them.

Those who breed for reasons other than furthering the health and quality of their breed whether for show or work are doing it for money IMO and 'saving' the cost of KC registration compounds that belief.

> I do not class her as a BYB

Well as you describe her as your friend I expect you wouldn't but she appears to meet the criteria on the info so far :(

All I can say is the owners of the stud dogs must be hard up or in dogs for money alone & Yes I too would class her as a BYB.

Your friends -is it by any chance Papillons? If it is, the the fog suddenly clears.

on similar line Dill, did anyone in westcountry see the cornish kommondors on local tv last night??? Bloke was delighted to tell the whole viewing public that he was selling them all at a thousand pounds each!!! No mention of any costs or health tests etc...just £££££ :(

no not Papillons or small breed. 

Everyone has their own opinion and yes I know it is the parents that are tested and not the pups, 

Linda

> Everyone has their own opinion

Again true, however you'll find that on a forum named Champdogs mainly whose members and in particular those of the parent site are dedicated to the betterment of KC registered pedigree dogs opinion will largely be that anyone who exploits dogs for money is, frankly, both despicable and immoral

>did anyone in westcountry see the cornish kommondors on local tv last night???

That must be the same litter that was in the Telegraph the other day - eight pups rather than the more normal four? As you say, let's stress the £££££££.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but if a responsible breeder would endorse all their puppies, and most would be sold as pets and never bred from anyway, surely those puppies will  never be utilised in the breed's gene pool either.  I'm not endorsing (no pun intended) not registering pups... I can't see why they wouldn't be, but I don't think that should necessarily mean this is a BYB if all health tests are carried out. 

Endorsements can be lifted by the breeder if the dog proves suitable for the cost of a stamp, and the genes are back in the gene pool. Late registration of a single dog, again by the breeder, costs over £60.

thank you everyone for your imput, my breed is suffering badly for breedrs(and i use this word loosley)
who don't show who breed from dogs of poor quality that produce incorrect colours and coat type, who tell their buyers that they should show as their puppywould be a champion,
i have seen some of these dogs who have had this problem, that problem and as young adults look nothing like the breed they are.
but they are good as they cost x amount and the breeder is accredited, they have web sites the pup has a pedigree, there is no wonder that my wonderful breed is having problems. its not just my breed from what i hear from friends in other breeds its every breed.

Isn't it about time that the kc did something and not just sit back and take our/their money then say its about time breed clubs got there act together, not every breeder is in a breed club.
the kc are the governing body but all they do is take.

Yes, I understand that Jeangenie, and I'm not saying that I agree to not registering because I don't - but just saying that considering how few dogs are actually being bred without health testing (in KC registered labs it is less than 50%, and in non registered probably next to zero), that I can see Linda's point that at least they are health testing their dogs.  There will always be people who will breed non registered dogs, and there are those who (for whatever reason) have an axe to grind and will not KC register their dogs.  The vast majority of dogs are bred as pets, for the pet market.... the vast majority are not bred from health tested dogs.  Of course, in an ideal world all breeding dogs would have proven themselves in the ring/field etc... and the best will go on to be shown and the remainder into pet homes.... However, this is not, and I cannot ever see it becoming a reality, or anywhere near a reality and I would much rather see someone breeding pets from health tested stock than breeding them from non-health tested stock.

Yes, a breeder can lift endorsements - and I'm sure most of those on this forum would do so if all criteria are met, but there are those breeders who see lifting endorsements as a money making scheme.... and whether justified or not, there are those who will not kc register because of negative experiences with the kennel club.

As I said, just playing devil's advocate... I would rather they were kc registered, but there are worst things that breeding pets from healthy, health tested animals - expecially considering how few in the gene pools are health tested.

> but if a responsible breeder would endorse all their puppies, and most would be sold as pets and never bred from anyway, surely those puppies will  never be utilised in the breed's gene pool either. 

Thing is you never know when a pup is 8 weeks what it's future may yet be.

There are many people who buy a pup purely as a pet and go on to show and then breed from it.

My first champion was sold as a Pet and came back to me.  She is also the dam of champions and her offspring have produced well, I am so glad her former owners didn't get her spayed before I had her back as has happened to some nice exhibits.

Another dog I bred wasn't shown until two years of age and became a champion, in his case he hasn't been used for breeding, but hey ho.

Another situation can occur when a breeder looses their own lines through Pyometra or some other accident and they are able to use on of their bitches or dogs in a Pet home to continue the lines, or the main lines in a breed become affected by some hereditary problem there is somewhere to go.

I can't see how anyone can have a personal issue with an organisation such as the KC enough to not register pups, the reasons most pups that aren't KC registered are that way is they can't for good reasons be registered.

After all what is £12 on the cost of rearing each pup?

" Of course, in an ideal world all breeding dogs would have proven themselves in the ring/field etc... and the best will go on to be shown and the remainder into pet homes.... However, this is not, and I cannot ever see it becoming a reality, or anywhere near a reality and I would much rather see someone breeding pets from health tested stock than breeding them from non-health tested stock. "

As far as I am concerned that shoudl be the only kind of breeding, and to be honest I simply don't see anyone health testing (in my breed you woudl expect to ahve to pay around £500 for Hip Scoring, Eye testing, Optigen DNA PRA test, and Kidney screening) just to produce unregistered pets, they are all without fail not health tested and many of them end up in Rescue.

I'm sorry but I just don't understand why people breed pedigrees and don't KC register, it is a very  nominal fee, £12.00 if you are on DD, £15.00 if not, that's nothing in the price of a pup.  Sorry but I would question why someone would do this and would not buy from such person myself.

>and there are those who (for whatever reason) have an axe to grind and will not KC register their dogs.

But clearly Linda's friends don't have an axe to grind because they have bought KC registered dogs to breed from.  Do they register the puppies they keep from their litters to perpetuate their line, I wonder?  Or do they perhaps never keep any and just buy in more breeding animals to produce more "pet" puppies to market?  Perhaps Linda would mind telling us as the whole thing seems very puzzling when, having started with registered parents and appearing to conform to all that is required of a reputable breeder, they do not wish to complete the picture.

Another thought.  Could it be anything to do with the restrictions that registering puppies places on breeders in terms of the numbers of litters produced or age of dam?  It really is the only logical reason I can come up with

Hi Suepie

My breed westies has suffered from pf and byb for over 15yrs and there are still loads out in the big wide world that look nothing like a westie should look. Ask any groomer and they will tell you that, also vets.

WAG (Waterside Action Group) have been great in trying to get some pf put out of business, and recently our local council shut down one such place due to complaints from breeders and general public.  All over the local papers as well.  Well done WAG for all the good work you all do.

Could it be anything to do with the restrictions that registering puppies places on breeders in terms of the numbers of litters produced or age of dam?

My thoughts exactly. Or if they have endorsements which haven't been lifted.

It is just her choice at the end of the day, by the way none of the dogs are endorsed and she does only have 2 litters from her dogs and usually keeps one of the offspring, told you all to get your guns out.  Not something I have ever done but each one of us is different.

Linda

Still fail to see what the point of her breeding is?

Linda, does she seek out breeders who don't endorse their pups?
I thought most good breeders did.

I have seen the pedigrees and are excellent with plenty of champions in them and yes they are not endorsed, and does hunt out good pedigree studs I have never asked the question of why she never registers because reall its none of my business. 

Linda

I suppose you could say puppy farming is none of our business but most of us will still take every opportunity to steer people away from it.

Linda, it may be none of your business, but aren't you just a teensy bit curious as to how your friend manages to get pups with fantastic pedigrees, yet no endorsements?
If it were my friend I'd be asking some questions.

LOL - Poor Linda.. she does seem to be getting a hard time

Linda, it may be none of your business, but aren't you just a teensy bit curious as to how your friend manages to get pups with fantastic pedigrees, yet no endorsements?

Well, it may depend on breed, because it would be easy if they were working labradors (or several other gundog breeds where there is a huge divide between show and working).  Working labrador breeders do not use endorsements - you could easily buy a pup with a pedigree full of FTCH and no endorsements.

Well, it may depend on breed, because it would be easy if they were working labradors (or several other gundog breeds where there is a huge divide between show and working).  Working labrador breeders do not use endorsements - you could easily buy a pup with a pedigree full of FTCH and no endorsements.

True, but Linda only said that her friend doesn't show, I'm sure she would have mentioned if they excelled in the field. (take it all back if I'm wrong)!

But, a lot of working dog breeders also fail to do health tests, so I doubt if that is the case.