The brass chain discolours and Elkhounds ruff.

Is there any way of stopping that that you are aware of as the collar I have has a brass chain and it was fine until he fell in the water and then it made his white fur grey?  It washed off easily in the shower though.  If it is something I have to live with that's fine as at the minute he tends to get rinsed off after most walks (mud monster that he is).

Go for the steel/chrome.

There are other ways of rewarding dogs !!!!!!!

Do children get treats every time they do something you ask of them ?

IMO there would be a lot of over weight children and dogs if that was the case.

What if you happen to forget to put treats in your pocket ? you allways have your hands and voice to reward.

Every one has their own opinions and methods as I can see it does not mean that training a dog without treats is horrid !
The dogs in the class are rewarded and praised with the voice , touch and occasionaly encouraged by toys which is just as good if not better IMO !! and how do you suspect the dog is horror struck do they allways look for a treat after they do what they are asked ? very bad habit to get a dog to stop doing.

As you said yourself you had to recalculate their meals for that day , what do you do if you have fed your dog and then have to get them to do something for you ,perhaps when out walking do you go over their food quota for that day if a treat is needed for praise ?

It is not an unusual approach  not to use treats just a different way , ask police dog handlers for instance how they reward their dogs when they are training them.

My dog and others at the classes also can be handled by other people too without the use of treats and are very obedient and willing to please .
Every one has their own methods it does not mean it is not the correct way !!!

I might be a bit ignorant but what is an APDT class and why have you abreviated it ?

> The dogs in the class are rewarded and praised with the voice

Is this your class or one that you attend? Have you such great faith in the voice of the clients?-  I dont ...many are monosylabic or weak or overly strong but a sausage is a sausage is a sausage. You may wish to train how you like but not all dog owners own the 'great voice'.

When learning, a novice dog needs what ever it takes to encourage the behaviour required - but the treat amount gets reduced to a tiny amount, not dinner sized portions !
If clicker or other positive reinforcement method is used then the gap before the 'bridge' in slowly increased so that behaviour is sustained. In a reasonably well trained dog it can wait until a whole lengthy excercise is complete before expecting its reward...but it knows it's coming.This- by the way can be anything the dog loves...toys, games etc but when starting off it is easy, available and enjoyable to start with titbits. So after the initial introduction, one does not need to recalculate calories for a few tiny treats.

My dogs get a proportion of their food for doing things...not always on a plate ...so to speak.

And they love it :-) They seldom take their eyes off me.....

I will leave others to explain the great shift in Police dog training from the 'string 'em up' methods of the past.

Apparently (not tried it), if you wash the brass after it's been polished in fairy liquid it stops the brass discolouring light coated necks.  I rub vaseline onto the brass after it's been polished and this removes the need to continually polish!  When you stay next to the sea, chrome is useless as it rusts far to quickly.

I personally prefer the leather with the brass chain.  They don't go rusty and providing you look after them, will last for many years.

Same here,   they mold better also not as harsh round the neck

> , ask police dog handlers for instance how they reward their dogs when they are training them

I suggest you ask the Police Dog trainer about how they reward the puppies they train rather than the Dog Handlers who are not Dog Trainers but Handlers, but do not restrict your enquiries to one force. I know of one force that use clickers with their puppies & more than one that start with treats & then graduates(as many Obedience handlers do)to toys. I've got a dog who as preferred toys as a reward from being a puppy. Treats are very useful for dogs without the work drive of BCs & GSDs etc

No one method is totally correct-it all depends on the dog & the handler so to stop people trying treats is wrong just as stating only treats are correct.

If you watch the dogs in the Obedience Championships & other similar competitions at Crufts the dogs do not get treats whilst they are working-nor do they get toys wilst working-yet the dogs work extremely ard for a bit of praise & a stroke(at the end of the exercises in the Championship classes)

It can be very difficult to get pet owners to get the pitch of their voice at a correct level everytime

I can say touch to my dogs & they touch the palm of my hand without a treat when they have learnt the command, they do not need a treat everytime & in fact they are rewarded with a toy or simply praise 99% of the time

>what is an APDT class and why have you abreviated it ?

APDT stands for Association of Pet Dog Trainers, and is abbreviated for speed!

> No one method is totally correct-it all depends on the dog & the handler so to stop people trying treats is wrong just as stating only treats are correct.
>

Agree.  In class my dog will do anything for a treat but in a more open space he works better with a toy for a reward.  He's not bothered about the toy in class and so I use treats. 

lilacbabe you've had a lot of good responses already but as you originally replied to me I've added a few comments

> it does not mean that training a dog without treats is horrid

Of course training without treats is not horrid - but I am surprised that such a valuable tool is missed in your class

> As you said yourself you had to recalculate their meals for that day , what do you do if you have fed your dog and then have to get them to do something for you ,perhaps when out walking do you go over their food quota for that day if a treat is needed for praise ?

That would be rather taking it to the extreme.  As a young puppy, learning so much for the first time, we used a lot of high value treats in our early classes.  As his diet was finely managed to ensure he was eating the correct amounts I simply adjusted breakfast and lunch to allow for the treats.  As someone else has said - same portions but distributed differently.  Training is one thing, day to day reinforcement something else.  Unless I'm focussing on particular issues or objectives my pocket treats are small plain biscuits.  Different targets carry different rewards for each dog.  If my older terrier type cross comes away from livestock when called he get's every treat and reward I can muster - well deserved!!

> do they allways look for a treat after they do what they are asked ?

No.  I train and reward with a variety of things, such as you've mentioned, voice, toys, hands, clicker, play time etc.  The point I was making in my original post is that to miss out treats all together is to ignore a hugely effective tool.

After reading this thread i actually like the sound of these half check collars.
However, as always few questions to ask :-)

* Could i use them on my dog - a miniature poodle?? Or are they more designed for larger breeds?
* I used to use (and still occasionally do) use a harness and attach the lead to that which dramatically stops him pulling. Presumably there   would be no point using a harness and a half check chain?
* What is best  - the leather collars with half check chain or the nylon ones?

Cheers

Pup not responding, give the other dog a treat.  I only have one dog so I used a cat.  Oban SIT.  Not snappy enough, Sadie cat gets a treat, much quicker response from pup next time.

I love this :)

My older dog thinks he is in heaven he gets so many treats, recall pup in the house, she doesn't respond older boy gets the treat and lots of praise, pup is at my feet in a flash :)

> Treats are very useful for dogs without the work drive of BCs & GSDs etc
>

Yep agree on that one, though those who have good voice can do wonders with my breed once the dog accepts they are worth working for.

A lot of the successful Obedience and tracking trainers of my breed in the US work on the jackpot system of delayed food rewards.

These are the classes I take and attend and they are going really well !
owners are learning as well as the dogs and are all responding well to teaching methods used without treats during class. Owners can reward as they want after  class as long as it does not intrefere with the other dogs IE treat giving.
I am not against other training methods but we are not going to use treats as a matter of preference and it is working fine.
Owners are learning voice control and I have great faith in them , one must consider owners and encourage them as well as their dogs. They may not own a great voice to begin with but with proper explanation , reinforcement and demonstration they soon see and learn how it works.
I cannot understand why you have no faith in your dogs owners .I personally go in to my class and tell my owners that they can and will be able to have a well trained dog that will listen and do everything they ask of them .
Each to their own , dogs love the class and owners go home encouraged and feeling positive.

> After reading this thread i actually like the sound of these half check collars.
> However, as always few questions to ask :-)
>
> * Could i use them on my dog - a miniature poodle?? Or are they more designed for larger breeds?
> * I used to use (and still occasionally do) use a harness and attach the lead to that which dramatically stops him pulling. Presumably there   would be no point using a harness and a half check chain?
> * What is best  - the leather collars with half check chain or the nylon ones?
>

They come in all sizes from extra small to extra large, so yes, you will be able to get one to fit Fred :)
I prefer the leather & brass which is what I use, but that's because it's very heavy & robust for my big lump of a dog. You can get some very attractive coloured/patterened nylon ones. There are also half-check collars that have material instead of the chain, (they work the same way, but obviously don't make the 'chinking' noise that the chain does).
I use a harness aswell as the half-check collar, but Buster is a very strong boy and if he does pull I hate the thought of his neck taking the force of the pull by itself, also as he doesn't go off-lead the harness is what he gets his long-line attatched too.

Thanks for the reply.

So when you are walking along and Buster had his half check collar on and the harness, what do you attach his lead to?   Sorry if thats a silly question,i'm just trying to visualise how you could use them both together?

Thanks

> I am not against other training methods but we are not going to use treats as a matter of preference and it is working fine.
>

What do you use for reward/motivation ?

> So when you are walking along and Buster had his half check collar on and the harness, what do you attach his lead to?   Sorry if thats a silly question,i'm just trying to visualise how you could use them both together?

it's not a silly question, I use 2 leads :) I have the long-line clipped to the harness, (looped up to keep it tidy) and his main lead clipped to the collar, I hold them both in the same hand. To start with I used to get in a bit of a mess with the 2 leads (dropping the slack of the long-line & getting tangled), but it's second-nature now :)

I use a training lead that had a clip on each end
http://www.petsathome.com/products/2K05C-Leads-and-accessories/pid-V00203

so in theory could attach one end to the collar, one end to harness and hold the loop that would be created in the middle. Although with a bit of practise im sure i could hold two leads without getting into too much of a tangle :-)

Well I have used a half check and harness for unsocialised resue and they worked fine together, the half check stopped them getting out of the harness, and the harness stopped excessive pressure on the neck.

The chain pulls away from the collar by about 4 inches so easy enough to attach to the harness at the same time.

These are the classes I take and attend and they are going really well !
owners are learning as well as the dogs and are all responding well to teaching methods used without treats during class. Owners can reward as they want after  class as long as it does not intrefere with the other dogs IE treat giving.
Differend dogs respond to different rewards. Some like praise, some a cuddle, some a toy and some will be motivated the best for food.   As far as distracting other dogs if you are rewarding your dog enthusiastically enough you should be distracting!  And so if othe dogs become more intersted in you while you reward your dog then it is  up to other handlers to be equally rearding to their own dogs and keep their focus and attention.

When I started puppy class with our first two dogs, now 6.5 years old, we were told to use half check chains, which I still do use for training and for shows. When out in the park they normally have buckle collars though. When I started the puppy class (same club) with my 3rd dog, now 4 years old, they didn't say anything about collar type. I'm now an assistant trainer and they never give any instruction, we have dogs on half checks, buckles, harness, and my friend who persists in using a full choke chain strong enough for a Bullmastiff on her Cavaliers, she won't listen to me telling her it's too severe!! At an obedience show once with Ellie working in her half check I overheard someone muttering about the severe collar I was working my dog in, I asked my trainer at club that week and she said most obedience people work their dogs in buckle collars now. It's all very confusing! I do like my fine chain half check collars for showing though, great for disappearing under the coat and not disrupting the eye during judging. :-)

they get rewarded enthusiastically by their owners at the end of the class so are not distracted during the lesson.

While they are working they are told good boy /girl and a stroke with the hand from head to tail is given throughout the lesson for praise. This is a group of ordinary pet owners who want to learn how to control and  socialise their dogs so to keep it simple for both owner and dog this is what we practice.
This then does not distract any other dog and also lets the owner concentrate on what they should be doing.
A toy is used at times if the handler needs to get more attention from their dog this they find easier to use as treats can be droped and if they are not eaten by the dog of the floor the handler then needs to pick it up causing unnecesary distraction.
As I said before each to their own methods and oppinions as the methods used by myself and the other volunteers are working well.

> As I said before each to their own methods and oppinions as the methods used by myself and the other volunteers are working well.

Glad they're working well for you :)

I am an ordinary pet owner (don't show) that is why I asked about motivation as my dog is motivataed by food. When he was starting out with training the ONLY thing he cared about was food, toys- no way, verbal/physical praise - so what! LOL.

> This is a group of ordinary pet owners who want to learn how to control and  socialise their dogs so to keep it simple for both owner and dog this is what we practice.
> This then does not distract any other dog and also lets the owner concentrate on what they should be doing.
>

I can see you do things this way for ease of use for the owners, but I'm a little worried about the fact the owners potentialy will struggle with giving thier pup a treat without dropping it or distracting all the pups in the class, it doesn't say much for the inteligence of the owners :(
It does get you thinking,if there are people about that would struggle keeping the dogs attention while picking up a dropped treat, it's no wonder so many people don't pick up thier dog poop!

ETA. I hope my post has not come across as me having a dig at you. It seems as if you have found that owners can't keep thier own dogs attention if there other dogs are getting treats and that you have found people struggle with giving treats, this seems to highlight the fact that people go out and get a dog with no idea of how to train them and even with direction in a training class still can't grasp the concept of keeping thier dogs attention if there is a disctraction such as other people giving treats to thier dogs :(

I hope my post has not come across as me having a dig at you. It seems as if you have found that owners can't keep thier own dogs attention if there other dogs are getting treats and that you have found people struggle with giving treats, this seems to highlight the fact that people go out and get a dog with no idea of how to train them and even with direction in a training class still can't grasp the concept of keeping thier dogs attention if there is a disctraction such as other people giving treats to thier dogs

That is why we have the classes, They also get a talk on things like picking up do poo and behavior issues ,socialising etc.we also have poeple who are afraid of dogs and who want to overcome their fear coming to the classes so that they can also be educated about dogs .
For instance people are allways quick of the mark to blame a dog if someone is bitten by one so we talk about how these situations arise and how to prevent them as sometimes the person who has been bitten  is at fault. Basically we want to make dog owners more accepted in to the community by teaching them how to conduct themselves and their dogs while they are walking their dogs etc etc.
I agree with you about people getting dogs and not knowning how to train them , some of them dont even know that grooming a dog is not just about making it look good it has to do with keeping them healthy and that we groom to look for lumps bumps and rashes and the likes.They basically think the dog is human, treat them like one and that is when the problems begin.
So you can maybe understand why we try to keep things as simple as we can .
It sometimes amazes me the things people come away with in fact our first class we had a complaint from a near by resident as a couple of dogs barked for quite a bit of the class and they have dogs of their own.They must have not known that unsocialised dogs do that untill they get used to being with other dogs  and that is another reason we have the classes. We might suggest to them that they should come along and see what we are trying to achieve.
And no I dont think you are trying to have a dig at me and any suggestions for training dogs and owners will be greatly recieved. For a start the barking and constantly whinging dogs what can we do ?? Getting their attention does help but they start again when sitting or made to stay etc
I expect they will stop when they get used to other dogs being around but it can get quite annoying.

> people getting dogs and not knowning how to train them , some of them dont even know that grooming a dog is not just about making it look good it has to do with keeping them healthy and that we groom to look for lumps bumps and rashes and the likes.They basically think the dog is human, treat them like one and that is when the problems begin.
>

Wouldn't it be nice if everybody found out about ALL aspects of responsible dog owership BEFORE they got the cute little puppy!

I can understand now why you keep things as simple as possible, you have your work cut out just teaching the owners the basics of dog ownership before you can even start on the basic training.
Regarding sugestions for how to solve barking dogs in class it would be worth starting a topic under behaviour.

I love dogs and could talk about them all day, but I just wouldn't have the patience to deal with the sort of problems you face in your class (the owners behaviours, not the dogs!). It sounds like your doing a good job of all-round education and it's great that you can help out people who are afraid of dogs at the same time :)

Thanks mastifflover
I think I will start a topic about barking in class and see what Ideas or solutions people have

> see what Ideas or solutions people have

Yes I have one,

Use any means possible to encourage the dog to offer the desirable behaviour - and in my experience of training hundreds of dogs and owners this almost certainly involves food treats and toys.
In fact I find toy induced motivation far more difficult to channel in a mixed, novice class than ever any food treating does.

Teaching a dog the 'watch me' behaviour is usually a very successful method of reducing unwanted barking but why would a young, untrained dog do this unless a high value reward was on offer.
Are you able to train for the 'absence of behaviour' using operant conditioning?

If toys are used instead of treats for fear of distracting the others then lili has never had a movement orientated collie in her class.  A collie would be far more distracted by someone playing with their dog than feeding them a treat and I know of several just like that.  Also, as tooolz says, not all dogs are sufficiently into a toy to want to be rewarded by them in a class environment.  A pat on the head and a few kind words do not work for every dog and you have to use whatever is right for that particular dog.  You may not feed children a treat every time they get something right, but how many of us would go to work if we didn't get paid?

Sorry meant to add, I teach "watch me" and my dogs never bark in class, they are far more interested in me as are the other dogs in the group.