I just wanted to thank everyone for their replies to my previous post and give you an update

My puppy had a clean bill of health from my vet, she also told me that I had been doing the right thing with her (that made me feel better) we decided a less is more approach and have gone back to begin with the very basics.

We have agreed to follow a course of action for one month and So far so good, this morning she waited for my go ahead eat your breakfast signal and allowed my older boy to eat from the food tray without any signs of aggression :)

We even have a back up plan if things don't work out

Thank you to everyone who has given me support and comforting words x

It's all good

Hi,

Glad the pup is healthy and that the vet is onside and that you have an action plan. However, I would still advise you to talk to the behaviourists Lindsay suggested. A telephone call or two won't hurt and at least you've made contact if things don't work out.

By the way, how was the pup with the vet? Did she allow handling and so on? What did the vet think of her temperament-wise?

Please keep us updated on how you and she get on.

Hi Freelancerukuk The waiting list for Sarah heath is nearly four months , my vet and it was one I hadn't seen before checked the pup over thoroughly she was really disappointed that she couldn't find a physical reason for the aggression, we decided not  to do a blood screening at this time but to take things right back to basics, less stimulation and more gentle constructive play, more nap times and positive interaction, she also condoned the way I was handling the aggression and the pup generally, which made me feel really positive and  that I could with her support manage to turn things around, I am going to follow this programme for a month and if things don't work out we have a back up plan one of my friends trains working dogs and he is going to take her if things don't settle down.

I have already noticed a huge difference today, she actually watched for me to signal at each meal time instead of trying to attack my older boy, that is massive progress,

I  also added some raw foods to her diet over the last few days which has had the effect of making her sleep for longer naps in the day she seemed to wakeup in a bouncy playful mood instead of crabby all day today. 

All good stuff x

It's fantastic that your vet is so suportive and that you have allready seen progress in pups behaviour.

I am in full support of you working with pup to get her over this and I am sorry if things I had said on the other post came accross wrong. Some people had expressed thier shock at your pups agressive behaviour and I was trying to show things from the pups point of view, but didn't give any thought to offending you with my terminology. So once again, I'm sorry, I really never meant to cause you any offence.

Lots of luck and keep us all informed how thing are going :)

To be honest mastifflover I was really downhearted after reading some of the posts on the other thread, I had really thought I would get some good advice and lots of support but actually when I read the whole thing again there was a fair amount of that which is why I started this thread  :) on the bright side and there always is one, there have been other things that have happened today that have made me feel that I have lots of support with her (your post here is one,) and for that we are truly blessed (we meaning me and my pup)

Had to laugh today as my older dog isn't used to a mega feeding routine but I have decided that he is going to be part of the pups rehabilitation, the reason for that is he is rock steady and she could do with seeing that,  at breakfast he was in a really good mood and hungry he ate first and was quite happy to play top dog the next meal I offered them was at 11am and he looked at me like I was weird but when I told him to eat his dinner he reluctantly ate one or two mouthfulls then was happy to let the pup eat, at 2pm he thought I was going mad when I asked him to eat again, this time the pup waited beautifully and he sort of ate one or two biscuits at 6pm he looked shocked and offended when I asked him to eat but again the pup waited beautifully at 9pm ish he sort of opened one eye and gave me a you know you have totally lost it look, this time after a short wait I let the pup go and eat with Drym, their noses touched twice as they were mouching for the bits of tripe that were left, not a singal sign of aggression :)

She loves the tripe chunks frozen I think it probably sooths her gums

Back to the very beginning with lots of small meals for her during the day and meal times are where she is going to learn about how to wait how to share and how it's all going to be alright :)

I will keep updating if everyone is happy with that, as I am sure I might need some comforting and encouraging words

Thanks again mastifflover  x x

Hi,
I t osunds like you and your vet are taking pup right back to square one. Given her lack of socialisation prior to coming to you that makes a lot of sense. She's got to get all her baby learning in.

I really do hope it works out for you and you are doing everything you can. It's a pain that there is such a long waiting list for the behaviourist- just bad luck.

Please do keep us updated on progress. Don't feel judged by us if things go awry again. A pup like this is a tall order for anyone and you are doing well.

Fingers tightly crossed.

Thank you freelancerukuku :)

This morning they both watched me prepare their breakfast and when I placed the tray down the pup sat by my side and waited :) I allowed her to join my older boy after just a fewseconds (as soon as she had relaxed) and they ate happily together, I got down on the floor and stroked her while she ate, rubbed her whole body right down to her nose and made them back up while I moved the food around with my hands,   wooohoooo no sign of aggression :)

I was rewarded when they were done by  the pup sitting inbetween my legs  gently licking my chin then we played on the floor and she rolled around gently play mouthing when her teeth made contact with my hand I stopped playing and said teeth firmly and held my hand still it took just a few seconds for her to stop and we carried on playing x

I am actually tearing up here lol

Best of luck with your pup :)

amount of gentle playing today = lots
amount of aggressive behaviour = 0

Think we are ahead for the first time :)

I am trying to get my daughter to show me how to post some pictures :)

I had a brain wave today, pup is eating lots of small meals made up of raw chicken, green tripe and biscuits, she is happily sharing with older boy she is playfull and being really affectionate with me (not introduced any of my children into her rehab programme yet)
Maybe she was aggressive because she was hungry, she used to really pick at her food and often not finish a gelerts (made softer with water) biscuit meal.

Maybe I will never exactly know why but if she keeps improving it might never matter x

> Maybe she was aggressive because she was hungry,

My dog is 15 months old now and down to 2 meals per day, if his last meal of the day is running late for any reason he is a handfull, he really acts up, bounds around the house terrorising the cat, bounces on & off the sofa barks at us to play - all down to it being past his meal time.

When he was much younger and I was making the transition from 4 meals per day down to 3, he was awfull, his play-biting got really bad so after 2 days gave in and switched him back to 4 meals per day and like a switch he was back to his former self.

It may be the change in food & amount of meals, but like you said as long as things are improving that's all that matters.

I'm so pleased for you with all this great progress, you and pup must be so much happier :)

I'm so pleased for you with all this great progress, you and pup must be so much happier 


Me too mastifflover and we are :)

Your boy sounds like he is a handfull too but like you said it can sometimes be as simple as a meal being a bit late, it is often the simple things that we tend to overlook maybe because they are too simple *laughing. 

I am really going to stick to the basics for a month with her, keep it really simple with lots of rewards.

Tonight we have had more cuddles than we have had in the whole time she has been here, it is like something has clicked inside her x

Best be off to bed or I will be bouncing on and off the sofa shouting at the kids to come and play lol

Night mastifflover

I am really pleased that this is all working out for you and your pup, you sound so much more positive about her and your relationship now, it's really great.
I am sure there will be loads of challenges ahead (an intelligent dog like that is always going to be a challenge) but hopefully she will slowly grow into the kind of dog everyone wants to be around.

I read all your post the other day. I didn't add anything as I didn't know how to advise you but having a puppy myself I was interested to read everyone's comments. You sounded at the end of your tether and my heart went out to you. Having just read the above I almost cried, so glad things are on track now. I get so much pleasure out of my cheeky boxer pup and am willing you to get that stage too. Keep going and be patient if you have a little set back here and there. Good luck

Hi Boxer-newby, 

thank you :)

You have no idea how desperate I was, but that desperation has turned in to hope :) today at breakfast the pup actually sat without being asked and watched for me to give her the go ahead signal before she ate. She happily shared breakfast with Drym and she seemed to enjoy being stroked from head to tail,

Keep going and be patient if you have a little set back here and there. Good luck

That is wonderful advice and you are so right, it can be easy to focus on the negatives but at the moment I am taking one small step at a time x

I am hoping my daughter will show me how to post some pictures today :) I am becoming a really proud mom lol

I am really pleased that this is all working out for you and your pup, you sound so much more positive about her and your relationship now, it's really great.

Hi RReeve :)

Thank you, things seem to feel better each day and I think she is becoming who she truly is x

(an intelligent dog like that is always going to be a challenge)

She really is intelligent and I know I can provide an environment that she can thrive in,

Fingers, toes and heart all crossed :) x

It sounds like your on the right track for this little puppy and congrats for getting off your bum and doing something now and not like so many others just end up putting her in rescue or putting her onto someone else to deal with :)

Smaller meals are als o good for giving less energy, and play times if becoming more frequent will also drain her nicely :)

Try playing some hide and seek games with her as well, hide in the bathroom in the tub or something and then call her with your recall command, when she 'finds' you praise her to the hilt and give her the treats, hours of fun and exercise while shes looking for you :) :)
Eventually make it a bit harder by hiding in different places and its so so so so much fun and trains recall!! :) :)

Good luck!!

Thanks Rach85 :)

Try playing some hide and seek games with her as well

wow that is a real coincidence, for playtime this morning we have been playing hide the ball and she loved it, she was really quick at finding where I had hidden it once she got the hang of it, have never thought of hiding myself though what a brilliant idea :)

:)

> have never thought of hiding myself though what a brilliant idea :-)
>

Its fun for everyone involved as well! lol
We still do it now with Mitzy and Turbo and they love scampering round to find me, I sometimes hide in the bath, behind curtains, under the duvet, behind doors and they always sniff me out and get a treat for a reward :) And loads of love of course :) !!

> Rach85

Rach you're back :-) 

Aww thank you for noticing Tooolz :) xxx
Im back and ready and rearing to go lol :-D

It's been a week now since my pup went back to basics and I just wanted to update our progress

I truly believe that the one thing that I overlooked was her feeding schedule and since she has been having lots of puppy meal times she has improved 100%, last night she even nibbled my hand with the softest of mouths, we are having daily cuddles, which were unheard of, she is sitting by me while I prepare meals even though the doors are open and she could take herself outside, we seem to have a really strong bond and it is such a wonderful feeling,

I am feeding nearly 80% raw foods now, which have had a really calming effect, she sleeps for longer and wakes up in a bouncy playful mood, she has grown so much (upwards) and has filled out, her coat is really glossy and feels like mole skin.

She will heel to my side with the softest of commands, her recall is 100%, she will lie down, sit, wait, stay, find and retrieve, she loves hide and seek (thanks Rach85) this is all inside the house at the moment, this next week coming I am slowly going to introduce her to being with me in the garden and if we hit a few problems I will just take it back in the house again, slowly slowly :)

She is a totally different more relaxed and happy puppy and I feel we are going to make it :)

Thank you for all your warm and supportive messages x

Wow, what a transforamtion :)

I'm so gald it's worked out for you and pup, it souns like you're really enjoying each other now :)

Keep up the good work :)

What great news! I'm really happy for you! Keep us updated with your progress & hope all the positive improvements continue!

Really, really pleased to hear this :) :) :)

Wow what great news, and so quick :)

Wow what great news, and so quick 

Thanks Dexter, Lincoln and Gembo

I know it is really quick

I am aware that it is very early days and it is also only in the house, but if I look back to 9 days ago or is it 8 I was ready to give up on ever being able to handle her :)

So woohoooo lol x

I am really pleased for you both.
I remember the days when my pup had me tearing out my hair and feeling like we could never get on. Now he is great, he is so gentle round the house, and he only turns into a mad thing when he is running and playing outside eg with a ball, so all under control. Just like a naughty hyperactive toddler, an intelligent independent type of pup like yours (and mine) can be very difficult when they get over tired, they don't want to give in and take a nap.
I am sure the change of diet will have made a difference too.

Good news Melody3005,

Don't be surprised if she takes a few steps back with new situations, as they arise; because she's older it's likely to take her longer to get used to all the things she hasn't been given the opportunity to learn in those first vital weeks, but just stick with it. These initial signs are really positive. Well done you.

I am sort of waiting for the setbacks freelancer whilst enjoying the progress if that makes any sense at all

Here (if this works) is the links to some pictures

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr96/melody3005/puppy003.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr96/melody3005/puppy007.jpg

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr96/melody3005/puppy042.jpg

AAAh, she is lovely. Naughty, alert little face.

I hope you don't think I'm being negative and I'm certainly not inviting you to be. It's just about being realistic and having a plan or some backup, should things go awry.

That is why I thought it would be good to get Sarah Heath on board. Four months is a long way away, but it may also be the time that the pup starts to test you and you might then need a bit of help. Of course, it may all go swimmingly from here and I hope it does. But a little planning is going to help you feel more secure too.

I hope you don't think I'm being negative and I'm certainly not inviting you to be.

Not at all freelancerukuk :) I am taking each day as it is, at this moment I am just enjoying her wanting to be a baby, I am not sure if things will keep improving and I am aware that there might be moments where she will test me but I am ok with that, she is allowing me to handle her, she is wanting to be cuddled and played with she even gives up her toys to me those things all create a really strong bond which will, I am sure, help us through any rough patches.

Last night I introduced my youngest son (age 9) into the rehab programme, actually it was into the game of hide and seek and oh boy, the pup was soooooo excited to find him that she held his hand with her paws and licked every reachable part of him that was showing, I have to remember she wasn't capable of that a week ago it would have turned nasty and ended in tears, that in itself is a wondeful thing.

This morning I took her outside with me just for a moment, she walked to heel when I asked her even though there were birds in the garden, I kept her attention to the end of the small path and back again :) later on we will do it again and we will keep on until it becomes as easy as it is in the house with her, once she is comfortable being with me in the garden we will venture outside, still taking small steps.

This plan of action with the vet will last a month if she resorts to her old ways of being aggressive I will give her over to my friend, for her sake,  he works with his dogs and they adore him, he has rescued many dogs that people had given up on and they have gone on to do wonderful things, so I know she will be in the best place if things don't work out here.

But for the first time since she arrived I can't see that happening :) x

> Last night I introduced my youngest son (age 9) into the rehab programme, actually it was into the game of hide and seek and oh boy, the pup was soooooo excited to find him that she held his hand with her paws and licked every reachable part of him that was showing, I have to remember she wasn't capable of that a week ago it would have turned nasty and ended in tears, that in itself is a wondeful thing.
>

That is fantasic :) Remembering things like this if you are to have any set-backs should help keep you positive, she is proving she can be a wonderful dog. Whatever it is you are doing now - keep doing it!!

It's great to hear so many improvements, I'm so happy for you :)

She looks like a long coated GSD/cross?

What a great change in her behaviour :-) Don't forget that she will hit the teenage stage in the future and it will seem as though she has never learnt a thing but once through that stage (one of mine is still there at nearly two years of age) all that work will pay off :-)

Hi Brainless :)She looks like a long coated GSD/cross?

the pup actually has no GSD in her at all, she is from a real ancient line of Welsh Collies

At one time there existed many sheep-herding dogs peculiar to Wales but to-day the group is decreased to two or three breeds only. The ancient pure breeds of Black-and-Tan-Sheepdog and Welsh Hillman are almost extinct, and the is scarcely ever seen working to-day Her great great grandfather was a decendant of this breed he was the most amazing working dog I have ever met, the black and tan colouring only came through in two of the pups :)

I know there is 1/8 Huntaway in her too which is again where her markings and colouring come from x

Hi Harley

Don't forget that she will hit the teenage stage in the future

I am sort of looking at her now through the eyes of a normal puppy owner and I know this last week has seen a miraculous change in her.  I am thinking or rather hoping her teenage years will be more normal teenage dog stuff than off the wall psycho stuff, but I am not trying to fool myself that it is going to be easy, but I know when it does get rough I can come and get support here :) I love this site x
Yesterday Drym and he is 10 going on 2 had a teenage moment, some lovely person had bought me a box of chocolates and I had left them by my bed I had opened them in the evening and my little one and I had shared a few, we had to pop out to pick up my eldest son up from work, when we arrived home Drym had opened my bedroom door and eaten every chocolate without ripping the tissue paper, he had also spat the hazelnuts back out into the box,

Got to love him, when I got home he was hiding by the pups crate trying to figure out how to get in lol

Melody, just felt I had to say how pleased I am that progress has been made...and also, I notice you critisisng some of us who you thought were 'very negative' about the situation you found yourself in?

In defence I have to say, you sounded very negative yourself about the situation...the way you described the dogs behaviour was a serious concern! Certainly those of us that were worried were mainly worried about the safety of your family! I think if you read back, as I have done, you will, maybe, see how serious the situation seemed? I also said it was impossible to give definitave answers as we weren't THERE to see the behaviour you were concerned about!

I'm hoping the relationship continues to progrees, that you have a happy dog and family and never re-visit that bad time again! All the best, Dawn

Isn't she a Welsh Mountain Dog/Collie from Bernese MD & BC/WSD bloodlines ?

You do know that chocolates can be extremely toxic for dogs don't you?

Hello moonmaiden :)

Isn't she a Welsh Mountain Dog/Collie from Bernese MD & BC/WSD bloodlines ?

She is from an ancient line of Pure Welsh Collies, The Welsh Collie Society can trace the line back several 100 years from descriptions and drawings, the dogs have a unique way of working which is mostly how they are defined, there have in recent times seen the introduction of Kelpie and Huntaway into the bloodline, I have been told she is only 1/8th Huntaway the rest of her is pure Welsh Collie.
Drym is all Welsh Collie both his parents were working and their ancestory can be traced back to the area for quite a number of generations.

There is a registration process for the breed but it is based on their working style which is assessed by the Society.

I have pinched a bit from their website :)

The indigenous herding dog of Wales has origins so ancient that they have become a part of folklore and its full lineage is lost in the mists of time. It is thought that the Gellgi or 'covert hound' may be an early ancestor. Manuscripts relating to Welsh Law dating back over 800 years mention herding dogs: "The herd-dog...that guards the stock and goes before them in the morning and comes home behind them at night" is recognisable as a forebear of the modern Welsh Sheepdog.

Historically there had been no record of the genealogy of these dogs and so the only evidence available as to the purity of their breeding line was their true 'Welsh' manner of working.

You do know that chocolates can be extremely toxic for dogs don't you?

I do, it is a shame that Drym has no idea though, about 5 Christmases ago I left him while I went shopping there was under the Christmas Tree all wrapped up a tin of Roses (I had before I wrapped it opened the tin and nicked a couple of chocolates) addressed to the family from santa, when I arrived home Drym had taken off the paper and opened the tin and unwrapped every chocolate and eaten them :| the vet said he was a lucky boy as he didn't suffer one ill effect, he hasn't had any since until now, how he knew they were here is a mystery to me, the box was closed and the door was shut and he still managed to get in and eat every single one.

Hi Newfiedreams

and also, I notice you critisisng some of us who you thought were 'very negative' about the situation you found yourself in?

I am sorry that you think that

I was downhearted about some of the replies I got on my first post but I got over it real quick and noticed how many people had been really positive and supportive which helped me get a new perspective on the whole situation, I mostly think people were being helpful to be fair :)

I was feeling pretty upset and desperate at the time but that is life when things are going wrong it is often difficult to see the light because our focus is some where else ie the problem x

I love these boards I have found some people I can really relate to and some stories that have made me realise how much people love their dogs, like me :) if I didn't care about my pup or want to change the situation I wouldn't have posted in my hour of need x I am also hoping that when we get through this that I might be able to offer some words of comfort or encouragement to someone else x

It is all going to be alright x

It is going to be alright, yes I think it is! I just didn't want you to go away and think we all 'didn't care'! We do, but it seemed very negative...and also, when looking at a forum, the same as looking at an e-mail, you have no conception of emphasis on words...which, in my experience, leads to misunderstanding!

I'm not trying to upset you, honestly I'm not! I just didn't want you to judge us too severly, for reacting to a serious, but thankfully passed, situation...take care, Dawn

> She is from an ancient line of Pure Welsh Collies

Oh but you originally wrote that she is a Welsh Mountain Collie, which actually doesn't exist(I have asked the Welsh Sheepdog people)I have been told by the WSDS that welsh mountain collies are the cross I mentioned.

In any case if they have crossed in Kelpie dogs & Huntaway dogs then they really do not make good pets-Kelpies are a need to work breed & the mix of breeds behind the Huntaway means a very mouthy dog as their bark is very important.

I was told by the Welsh Sheepdogs were never sold as pets"Their will to work is in-bred and they need an active life-style. The Society wishes to restrict the sale of registered puppies to working stock farms only"

"Welsh sheepdogs need activity and mental challenge and so we will only sell to homes that can provide young dogs with the stimulation they will need to develop into healthy, happy adults. "

I'm not trying to upset you, honestly I'm not! I just didn't want you to judge us too severly, for reacting to a serious, but thankfully passed, situation...take care, Dawn

Dawn sweet lady there is no judgement, I realised really qickly after I felt upset that nearly everyone that had replied to me had done so from their heart, it was difficult to see that straight away, it took me a day or two x but once I had seen it I began this thread :) things with the pup which is the most important thing here at home right now have gone from strength to strength and I don't think it would have felt the same without the cheers of support my pup and I are receiving from people here x

Oh but you originally wrote that she is a Welsh Mountain Collie

That's what I call her, I didn't get for her pedigree I got her because I knew her line. The registered breeders are only allowed to sell their pups to working farms, my pup didn't come from a registered breeder. Drym is from the same line and he is the most amazing dog I have ever had the pleasure of knowing :)

Many years ago we had a very greedy dalmatian.
We had to rush out after dressing the Christmas tree.
When we returned the dog was nowhere to be seen (sleeping in his bed), all the chocs had been taken off the tree, and a neat ring of silver paper all around the tree where he had managed to take each choc carefully down, had not disturbed any of the other decorations at all, eaten the chocs and left the wrappings on the floor!
Thank goodnesss he was fine, and also thank goodness i didn't even know it was bad for dogs to eat chocolate then, otherwise i would have worried all over Xmas about him.

We have a Border collie that everyone thinks is a cross as well because his nose is quite sharp and he's a big one. Someone said the other day that he was a Welsh Collie. Is there a recommended breed type for a Welsh collie any old pictures? Jake is ISDS registered from welsh and scottish stock.