[deleted]

Hearing you LOUD and clear! lol

Sadly critiques are submitted and often do not make any sense. However if you think about it when judging you should judge the dog against the standard, so when writing you critique you should use the standard and refer back to it picking out phrases from the standard to signify what part of the dog was good or outstanding. By doing this you unfortunately often end up with a critique in which almost every dog is described in pretty much the same way.

As there was no link to the critique you are talking about nobdy can reply in any other than general terms.

I was just about to write to a breed specific forum regarding the lack of good critiques or in some cases any crit at all.

In the course of this year I have had some very lovely wins with three of my young stock and critiques have been, in the main,
"nice head, nice coat, went well" and these have included Best Puppy at breed championship shows and BPIB at General champ shows in massive entries.
It was impossible for me to glean just why they gave my puppies these awards so goodness knows how other people would!

I was at an outdoor open show this year.  Judge was really nice and complimentary about my dog etc.  Got the dog paper every dog was critiqued but mine!!  Now that was annoying.

My second bitch has done extremely well at shows, in 3 years showing (about 20 shows including opens) I have acquired 3 or 4 critiques :(   She has 2 RCCs and a RBOB and has been placed in every show.  Loads of money spent on dog papers but only a few critiques to show for it :(

Annoying isn't the word I'm thinking

We have had 2 BOB, a best AV and several Firsts in the last 6 months which haven't been critiqued - just because they are open shows the secretaries and KC are not interested when I complain. :-(

we had a reserve BIS and BOS at a club open show in May, I still havent seen a critique for it and doubt I will now as it was back in May.  he also won a big post grad class at windsor and im still waiting on the write up from that.  Its disappointing because I like to cut them out and put them in his scrap book with his awards.

I'm still waiting for the critique when Mia won her 3rd CC - 4 years ago!  And ditto, the owners of her younger sister who won her 3rd CC at East of England this year.   So much for making judges write crits, I think the situation is worse than it ever was.  

Have those who are waiting on championship show critiques in the last year or so complained to the KC? If so, what was their response if the judge wasn't able to provide them?

M.

how soon should you complain ?

I think if they're not published within 2 months of the show they won't be, so that's when I'd complain.

> how soon should you complain ?

LOL, good question. I certainly think that once it got to 6 months I'd have no qualms about complaining, so probably fairly shortly for Windsor and East of England. If the KC don't get told, they can't keep track of all of them, and from a friend who has done this if they are told they do act fairly quickly.

I can understand that they wouldn't bother with the general open shows, but I'd probably complain about the breed club open show too (sorry, can't remember who commented on that one). If that judge can't shake themselves to do one for that, no reason to think they'll be any different if passed for CCs. Be a shame if the KC weren't interested.

M.

I got my three counties critique 2 weeks ago and that was in June - probably why im still holding out hope for the others !!

does the KC have an email address ?

You can use this link. They respond very quickly.

thanks :)

Claire - thought I saw this in the papers????  Will look in my ever growing pile at home for you.

My point, however, was if these judges are forced to submit crits and they are of the 'nice head-moved well' type - are they worth the paper they're written on?
Surely if a top award is given in an entry of 300 odd then the description warrants more than that.

> "nice head - moved well"

thats the sort of write up you get from a class where there is only one or two dogs in it !!

Rachel - which one did you see in the papers ?

ive had a response already, they are looking into it !

As bizarre as it seems many people do not really understand how to write a critique, so I have over the years developed a system where by I help them via the email to actually write what they want to say.

Hi Claire Your club show where you got your BOS?  or am I thinking of something else???

There was a pic of me from our club champ show in the paper not long ago.  I havent seen it - not saying I havent missed it though !!

Oh think that was it - is that not the critique you are after then :)  If you want it and I still have it let me know and will send it to you :)

no, thats not the one, I cut that one out - including the geeky picture !!!  This one is from an open show which was in May

I'll double check for you tonight - just in case but you are probably right!  Maybe it was also I saw on the Irish Setter website too!

Of course here in Europe the critique is done ringside, and you get to take a copy with you when you leave, that is the bit that is worth waiting for. I will deffo miss that when we come back to the UK. We once had a wonderful critique said fantastic stuff about her, then he promptly threw her out!!!!!!! :)

> I like to cut them out and put them in his scrap book with his awards.

I used to do that until I was at a Friends house ans noticed that she had stuck the critiques to the back of the prize card.

I started doing this and the prize cards go into a pollypocket, with a covering sheet listing all the results for the year and these go into each dogs binder.

thats a good idea

Its not always the judges fault i submitted a club show report, in  time, and its still not appeared in the dog paper

> i submitted a club show report, in  time, and its still not appeared in the dog paper

Yes it has ...

That's why I wouldn't complain as quickly as 2 months though, give people time to iron out any issues like that.

M.

ive had a few nice wins this year under some very good judges and i would say about 40% have not sent in there critiques and i find that very lazy, as if you take an appointment you should fulfil it and that includes the critique surely?

Think for some reason judges in this country are not good at saying what they see, I believe sometimes it is because we all try not to fault judge so when you come to write the critique you only mention the things about the dog that appealed to you and fit the standard. Now there are a limited number of ways of saying that this dogs eyes, tail and coat fitted the standard when you are not allowed to say that the rest was rubbish and it moved like a camel.

I do try to say what I have seen but you do feel restricted by good manners and the desire not to put a newcomer with their first dog off showing for ever. You find yourself praising the smallest item that is correct and glossing over any of the many imperfections.

It is also true that critiques presented in good time to the dog press do not always get published, this happens a lot in the summer months with critiques for open shows, the championship critiques taken presence.

has it LOl?  still waiting for lka 2007

Aren't we all LOL, good thing we're not holding our breath.

Actually now I look, it is not in the index but it is in last week's DW. You might want to put a note in breed notes, or even ask DW to publish it again and index it. I found it because I search it online.

M.

i did check with Dog World to see if a critique had been received  for LKA and no it hadn't.

I agree about judges and their critiques and for me the lack of them is the only bit i find disappointing and a let down about showing especially if youve done well at a show.... Ive had a few BOB's with my dog and a few BPIB's too,I look forward to reading the critique in DW or Our dogs to see what the judge thought only to find it never goes in..and im left disappointed. I also keep the ones (and its about 3 in all and my dog is now 15 mnths!!) that do make it in as its a nice souvinir to go in a scrapbook along with my ringcard and any other bits and bobs from the show as a keepsake.

I know sometimes the crits just say nice head ,moved well etc etc and yes i wonder why the judge bothers to write just that too....but come on we pay our money,surely  if your dogs done well expecting a crit is not too much to ask for is it?

You are right to demand a critique, all judges sign a contract to say they will supply one so if it does not appear contact the papers and if they have not had it contact the KC. That is the problem of no effort being made at all and if the judge does not write one they are breaking their contract.

The other side of the problem is the inability of some judges to write in an accurate way without talking about the exhibits faults, it is not easy. It may be what all exhibitors would like but not all judges are capable of doing it and it is difficult enough to get competent judges of dogs without asking that the are budding writers.

Too be too demanding about the content of a critique frightens many of us into total writers block, so although I agree with your anger when no critique appears I would ask for a little tolerance of the literary style.

Try it your self, watch a class of dogs being judged and then try to write a critique of the first 3 make it interesting and detailed without using your own ideas on things and not mentioning any of the faults. Not talking to judges by the way who may well be better than I at sorting out an accurate and interesting critique.

Oh! by the way you can only use about 30 words a dog, paper will prune if it is many more.

Coincidentally I've covered this topic in part in my next breed notes as it's a subject often raising the hackles of exhibitors.  That said, not all crits are worth the paper their written on but IMO better something rather than nothing appears both from the POV of courtesy to exhibitors and the inviting society and also to keep within KC rules on the subject.

I disagree that crits should not contain any exhibits flaws as well as virtues or that a judge failing to do so has anything to do with actual inability.  None of us should be fault judging but nevertheless the number or severity of faults in an exhibit is what will cause it to be further down the line than others so, if those reasons apply and the placing is such that a critique is called for, why would any judge not have the courage and honesty to say so?  It needn't be written in harsh or dismissive terms but IMO judges who fail to note obvious faults are seen to be either too weak to judge or too incompetent to assess the breed ;)  A no-win situation (as is much the case for judging anyway LOL)

> Oh! by the way you can only use about 30 words a dog, paper will prune if it is many more

Yee gads - 30 words?   From ME? that SO couldn't happen :-D  I've had preambles reduced (rare that I do them anyway) but never the individual comments on each exhibit and I'd be VERY annoyed if anything was re-worded as often taking out one word or substituting a phrase for another can put an entirely different slant on observations.

regards, Teri :)

You must be considered more important than I am, always having my critiques clipped sometimes to the point that they no longer make any sense even if they did in the first place.

Yes, you do say the movement was not good to day or movement would be better if lost weight, or I prefer the ears on 1, would benefit from a wider pelvis but you don't say had a hernia or looks nothing like the breed. In general I only try to comment on things that could be improved if a dog is just not up to standard there is little point in commenting on it. Perhaps you will say I should withhold, you may be right. Will always be totally honest to the exhibitor if they ask but don't think it fair to draw everyone's attention to an exhibitors dogs faults.

Sorry Lol new on computers.

Critiques!see page 14 our dogs2 17/10/08.city of Birmingham gsds.
A number of cards witheld  and no reason given.
As I read the critiuues all dogs were correct how can this be over to you.

I like the one 'everything in the right place'.
Yes, a leg in each corner, ears on the head, eyes in the head, feet at the end of each leg, a tail at the back end. Am I being cynical, never!

> You must be considered more important than I am,

I shouldn't think so, perhaps one of us has had better or lesser luck than the other on available space for example :) I'd be surprised if I'd ever kept write-ups under 60+ words and certainly for a club show or ch show appointment that would rise.....

Bad bites, cryptorchids or hernias could easily be covered in a preamble - just as with any other personal concerns about how a breed may be evolving.  Better IMO to be seen to acknowledge these things cropped up in an entry without necessarily identifying the specific exhibits.

I hate crits which castigate dogs or their owners/handlers etc - honesty should IMO always be tempered with tact as any dog entered under a judge should be viewed as a privilege :)  

lightyear,

I don't subscribe to OD as it happens but since you state that a number of cards were withheld then the critiques available may well have been for dogs which were (in that judge's opinion) 'all correct'   Crits aren't done on withheld dogs after all ......

Personally, if withholding a number of awards I think a judge should cover his/her reasons in a preamble - without doing so the rumour mills would go into overdrive and this sport needs more of that like a hole in the head ;)

Nova I understood it was only in their contract to do a critique for champ and club shows. As far as open shows are concerned some put it in the contracts some don't - the ones I haven't had, the secretaries have basically said it's not in their contract so they aren't interested in contacting the judge and asking for them. I have contacts at DW so generally ask if I have seen several weeks of reports on other breeds but nothing on mine. Now starting to worry a bit about Ashford....

Gosh, well we always ask for a critique and I put that in the contracts, had thought it was mandatory so better take a look in the red book.

When you see that the OP has been deleted it is amazing that this thread in now on post number 48

> That said, not all crits are worth the paper their written on but IMO better something rather than nothing.

My sister, it's not often that I disagree with you but... after reading gushing, vomit inducing, sickly sweet praise for other winning puppies owned by 'influentials' then getting  - 'nice head - moved well' when my little girlies have beaten this perfect bunch repeatedly.... I get so disappointed -probably better to have nothing said than that.  Yes it is quite a revelation that I can still get disappointed after all these years ....but the worst thing I'm finding these days is anyone criticizing my babies........
........................it's just like calling my kid 'UGLY' :-(

I can see why that's touched a nerve sis, BUT (I like that word, so much more to the point than the preferred by many HOWEVER :-D ) the reason I think something is better than nothing is that it helps us, the exhibitors, to assess the judge too.

Personally I'm sick to death of nice head, good body, moved well covering just about every dog in every breed and I REALLY have to swallow hard to keep down the irn bru when I read glowing reports of dumpy, stuffy, pitter pattering cripples being lauded and applauded for attributes they so sadly lack BUT (that word again) such crits say a lot more about the judges' abilities than the dogs before them.

If some plonker manages to make such an obvious mish-mash of judging what's before them and in so doing appears to imply that good dogs (of any age) are by that fact plain, poorly presented or GF coz mine are like my kids too  UGLY then anyone in the know sees and REMEMBERS that self same plonker for ever more ;)

And FWIW I don't think time served should make us less disappointed when the judging with or without a follow up crit is poor or weak - we all pay the same money to enter and, the longer we're in it, the better able we are to KNOW what's at the end of our lead and how it compares with the competition (unless entirely kennel blind but that's a whole new thread ;) )

Bet your babes are gorgeous - why else would they already have done so well.