If a dog has mated a bitch twice but no tie on either mating what would you expect the stud owner to do, would you just pay the agreed fee as arranged before mating took place?

Having no tie does not mean no pups, and yes you would stick to the arrangements made beforehand. If however the bitch misses then a mating at the next season may be offered or even a different stud. The stud owner is not obliged to do this, the slip as likely to be the 'fault' of the bitch, as that of the stud. So remain on good terms with the stud owner and see what happens.

The fee covers the service that is provided so the stud owner will not refund, they may however offer free stud service next season if no puppies result.
This is my policy but saying that I only allow bitches that I want a pup from to be mated to dogs so I usually ask for a pup anyway.  Just means I have as much interest in the mating as they do.

Also if the male is smaller than the female which can happen in my breed it is harder for a tie to happen but they still get pregnant.

Emma

Yes but ensure the bitch owner has a receipt for a free repeat mating on that bitch if she misses.  For me a you do see bitches occasionally who don't tie but it is often that the days are not 100% right.

I will always offer a repeat mating if no puppies result and I do state it on the receipt.

I have never charged a stud fee if pups haven't been produced.

my boy had a slip mating twice with a bitch and that resulted in a litter of 10 pups. I charged the fee at time of first mating stating on the receipt that a free mating on her next season will be offered if no pups were produced.  Infact the lady was very pleased with everything and has asked to use him on another bitch too

In my breed  have not know of a fruitful slip mating.

I would be most put out if I was expected to pay a stud fee up front without at least one tie.

I wouldn't charge for a slip mating in my breed.  I have never known one to work.  Even if they appear to be tied and the dog only slips out when he eases off the bitch, they still seem to miss.

However, in bulldogs they all seem to be slip matings, although the handler holds the dog in for 5 or 10 minutes and the matings seem to work fine.  But then they expect them to slip so are ready. 

i paid a stud fee up front for 2 slip matings and then the dog was returned back to his native land. needless to say didn't get any pups.

Hmm, I've charged for a mating, 2 slip matings, so offered(in contract) a free mating next time...still no tie, bitch not pregnant so I refunded in full...

Our stud fees are paid the first time there is a tie.  The bitch owners are welcome to come back as often as they want, until our dog is no longer interested in the bitch.  Our dog is proven several times over, has never missed, but in the event the bitch didn't get pregnant following a tie we would offer our dog free of charge the next time.  If the bitch didn't get pregnant the second time then the bitch owners would have lost their money.  I was told that the bitch owner is paying for the service, not the result, although I do think thats a bit harsh, which is why we offer the second time free if no pups the first time.  As I said, we have never had the problem of a bitch not becoming pregnant as a result of a tie with our dog, but we get it all down in writing 'just in case' so we all know where we stand.

I know that traditionally the bitch owner is paying for the services of the dog, rather than for puppies, but I would not feel right taking their money if they didn't end up with puppies.  With the 3 dogs I've used at stud (2 champions and a dual CC winner, all below average hipscores etc etc) I've taken the stud fee either on confirmation of pregnancy by scan, palpatation etc or on whelping, and have then sent on the signed KC paperwork.  If I didn't trust anyone enough to do this, they wouldn't be using one of my boys.

I think the stud owner is right to charge as it means time out from a busy schedule to have the bitch present and cared for.  Plus if they do mate, even a slip they need to be tested to make sure the bitch has passed anything on to him ready for the next bitch, even though we ask for a vets certificate to say she is all clear before hand so you have the cost of that as well.
A stud is a service.  A stud dog owner can help with advice and everything but we can not be responsible for a bitches failure to conceive if everything has been done in their power to make it happen.
I offer repeat mating for free if they dont catch.

My only exception is someone wanting to use a stud dog with little or no experience as I can not say for certain he is fertile or will produce good stock.  In which case I have an agreement to take one of the litter or a payment on vet confirmation of pregnancy.

Emma

like mentioned by emma: one pays for the stud, the mating .. BUT the intention of this mating is having a litter of pups.
we have all studdogs checked their semen  2 x a year,  certificat etc to be seen/kopy for bitchowner.
if less then two pups: free mating
if  bitch with first litter/mating: only with experienced studdog.
but here on continent we  often make  use of AI in order to protect both male/female for all sort of infections!
i still prefer a bitch/dog to have natural mating, but our bitches are checked /tested also reg.
we accept bitches for natural mating when  being tested etc . also ask for progesteron test to be done ..
we also offer help/advice when and with selling  their puppies.

I believe that it is wrong to charge a full fee unless a litter of live pups is produced. A deposit for time and inconvenience would be acceptable. Paying up front used to be the accepted practice back in the days of large "professional" breeding kennels but times have changed. It is not always convenient for a breeder to bring their bitch back at the next season if a litter has been planned for a certain time; 6 months to a year in the future may not be a good time to have a litter.
I have never asked for a stud fee until after the litter was born, and if I asked to use a stud dog and the owner wanted the fee up front I would go elsewhere. In today's economic climate most people can't afford to lose several hundred pounds and get nothing for it.

I charge a small fee (£50) for the mating/s, with the balance of the stud fee payable either on confirmation of pregnancy or the birth of a litter depending on individual circumstances.

> I believe that it is wrong to charge a full fee unless a litter of live pups is produced.

But the fee is for the mating not for the production of a litter. I never charged close friends who used my dogs until the puppies were born for my ISDS dog-however the registration system is different to the KC's as both owners have to be members of the ISDS & the stud dog owner as to send in the mating registration card-so there is no way for the breeder to have a litter & register them with a different parentage. for the same bitch.

In horses I understand there are no live foal no fee agreements, however if the stud where the stallion stays is more"professional"& offers to stable the mare whilst she foals & then comes back into season & is mated again, then usually the mare will stay at the stud until she is scanned in foal. I know there is a growth in AI for horses-but the straws have to be paid for upfront

I think that although it's a 'service' some human generosity has it's place...after all we are very keen to say that this is just 'hobby breeding'.
You cant go far wrong if you bear in mind how you, yourself, would like to be treated.
I'm very laid back about these things and am not very quick to want the money.....after all, I like the person, I like the bitch and if I didn't I wouldn't use my dog.
I've always been paid.

It has stuck in my mind for many years how I was treated by a breeder I barely knew, I had one good mating for which I paid the stud fee.
I had 5 healthy puppies but nothing was marked well enough to be a surefire winner -but I kept one bitch (which I told the dog's owner about.)  I met her at SKC and she enquired why I didn't show the bitch - I explained. " You must come back for free mating- I insist - what's an hour of my time?"
I'd like to be remembered like that....fair.  She was extrordinarily fair I know but in many ways she's right..we dont keep these dogs to make money and what is an hour of time spent on your hobby?  Controversial?

A few of us in my breed have started charging a non refundable handling charge of £50 (especially if the dog is jointly owned or the stud work is being conducted by a third party, and they get the fee) with the balance due after the litter are born, but most often the stud dog owner will wait until a litter has been born.

What I mean by third party is like in my case I have had a dog I bred stay with me to mate a visiting bitch as the owner has another male and no segregation facilities.  Also with a jointly owned dog the person who is handling the mating is put to trouble that the others aren't so deserves a little something for the being available having the bitch to stay and the cups of tea they make etc.

I think when stud fees are the price of a pup then the fee really is for a litter, not just for the time and trouble of owner and dog.

In Europe I know that often the arrangement is 100 Euros for the service plus 100 Euros per pup, this was what the person whose dog I used in Finland normally did but I paid the cost of a pup and was put up for a week, as of course it would have been putting them to a lot of trouble if the bitch had missed, so at least they were sure of a decent fee which I paid up front with no prospect of returning, and this was a maiden bitch!

The moral I think is to have all terms sorted out in advance.

I have heard of pups being born from slip matings. When using a stud you are paying for the service of the stud. Puppies are a bonus IMO.  If the bitch doesnt fall then you ask the owner what they do.
With myself if my boy doesnt produce pups then i offer the bitches owner a free mating then if no pups again then something is wrong with either bitch or stud.  This is what i would do.

When stud fees are the price of a pup I think the service part is more than paid for though, and really it is a litter that the bitch owner, expects out of it.