Been watching the group interaction between my dogs a lot recently following a spat between hormonal girls, no blood just two equals sparing.  Following this, which seemed to result during a firework display going on a few houses away, there has been a lot of gentle putting in place behaviour going on throughout the household. 

Bottom of the bitches line is supper subervient but will retaliate if pushed and spends all her time licking furiously at the other dogs muzzles when not resting.  She has taken to instigating a game, be it with a stone, piece of wood or ball, whereby she tantalises the other dogs to they have to chase her.  The juveniles all play and while theres a lot of fun barking they quite happily pass the ball/stone from mouth to mouth until one runs off and starts the chase again.  Only when the older bitch steps in and looks her into giving up the object do things change. Oldest bitch goes of with the object and next bitch down (age wise) mounts subervient bitch. Happens nearly every time. At this point I remove the object.  The whole thing will start again when another object is picked up (even one stone seems to be special?)

Seems to be another way of sorting out the pecking order?

Must agree I've learnt so much over the years watching in particular my mothers pack, the Alpha bitch she has now is so in command. She commands her pack just with a look and it is amazing watching all the roles of lower ranking females, (and dogs) they all have their own roles and suck up is one of the most common :-) I think a pack's dynamics is wonderful to watch.

Even my girl accepts her as an equal in her own home, they tend to act as Alpha sisters, there has never been an altercation between them but neither shows disrespect or submissiveness to the other, they are great friends. For some reason even at Christmas when I have so many family dogs and some of the visiting bitches here are bigger and stronger breeds but for some reason they are both respected by all, their aura is amazing, though I must admit my mothers Alpha is I think the true Alpha.

I even watched one Christmas a lower ranking bitch took the last chicken wing, my mum's Alpha just stood infront of her, head up looking regal and looked at her and she dropped it immediately and let her have it, I'd like to add there has never once been a fight between any of our dogs the power of heirarchy is very strong.

Mind you hubby would do the same for me, if I wanted the last chicken wing. :-D

lol my OH woundnt give me the last chicken wing.

Back to the dogs, it does put into perspective the poo poo'ing of the domestic pack heirachy doesn't it.  When you are watching it happening all the time.  There is a very defined pecking order here with the boys firmly at the bottom and the oldest bitch and on occasion the smallest bitch (smaller breed) swapping roles.

I also noticed the looks my older girl gives a friends dog even if she just wants to drink from the water bowl, it is a very deffinate 'this is my water' look and friends dog has to wait until she is allowed to drink.

If only dogs ran the world!

Ive noticed it with my 2 more and more as Turbo grows and loses his puppy privilages lol
Mitzy wont tolerate him nicking herstuff now and will tell him off with a deep growl which he reacts too by just laying real close and waiting for off cuts of rawhide etc lol :-D

Although it is quite hard to know who is 'top dog' with our 2 Staffords if there even is one, maybe someone can tell me as Mitzy and Turbo both eat at the same time, dont oull ahead of each other on walks and if they do no one stays in front for long, they expect love at the same time IE one will be having some love and the other sits a bit closer to let you know their there lol Does it seem like we have a top dog present or just 2 close friends who dont care about top dog lol?

it does put into perspective the poo poo'ing of the domestic pack heirachy doesn't it.

Oh yes, definitely, even though we are the authority figures, dogs have their own communications and heirarchy seperately, as a natural instinct as it should be, living with humans doesn't take away the pack instinct, the only difference is we tend to introduce and control which dogs live together sometimes that can be a hit or miss and that is purely our fault, but when it is done right with proper age gap introductions and breed characters taken into account you can have a wonderful pack and the communications and as near to natural state are certianly there for all to see. :-)

Although it is quite hard to know who is 'top dog'

The bitch of course. :-)  Though to be honest with just the two dogs and if Turbo is a complete gent she will most probably not ever need to show that she is. If food was short or you only had one hand, I'm sure that Mitzy would then push forward and tell Turbo to let her go first.

You'll probably not notice too much, perhaps the odd bone or toy growl but if Turbo is a good boy they will act quite equally. :-)

> if Turbo is a complete gent

He really is you know :)
He never pushes her out of the way (Apart for cuddles when their pushing each other everywhere anyway when I first get in lol :-D) and she has been real good in teaching him the manners he needs, he copies her nearly all the time and they do love each other so :)
He quite often licks her and shes just now starting to return the favour lol

> You'll probably not notice too much, perhaps the odd bone or toy growl but if Turbo is a good boy they will act quite equally.

Thats all I have noticed so far to be honest and I love it that way, thank you for that Carrington :) :) xxxx

Sorry to butt in on your discussion.......

Having recently been learning about the ideas of Jan Fennel and Turid Rugaas I am interested in the different views bandied around based on the "social order" of animals and people. In your opinion do you think the dogs exist just in their own hierarchy system? Where do we, as human owners fit into this system...or do we.....and should we try? Are we just another breed that exists alongside them? Where are dogs if they are a lone pet (as mine is)? Have they evolved from wolves and do they still maintain that order or because of becoming domesticated has that changed it?

Please feel free to give me your views.......it is not a test!!

Or because of becoming domesticated has that changed

No it hasn't changed it, dogs are born with dog instincts they always will be, g*d forbid how would they survive otherwise if human's didn't take care of their every need,  a Dam will still dig when she has pups even though she has a nice whelping box, will still dig to cover scent and toileting of her pups even though there is nothing to dig, (just two examples) no matter how much we domesticate, a dog will always have dog instincts will always understand pack behaviour, but they adapt, they adapt very well to living with us.

When dogs are born in a pack they automatically recognise the Alpha dog and bitch they are a species that have an order of authority, which is why we can so easily be the authority figures for a dog, they recognise that we are higher ranking and they settle into that role just the same as they would with an Alpha dog/bitch, but they know we are not dogs, we don't communicate the same, they accept us as authority figures that is different and through understanding dog behaviour we can communicate pretty well with them too.

A dog knows which side it's bread is buttered we feed and care for our animals and they show their appreciation for that, we often put human emotions on dogs which they don't actually feel (myself included) but a dog will always be a dog. :-)

If we weren't around and dogs were suddenly left to roam free they would form packs after a lot of heirarchy issues and live very happily without us their instincts are still intact no matter what we do and so they should be, but domesticated dogs live very long and happy lives with us and we have to thank them for being so adaptable as our world is alien and they do oblidge very well in living with us, which is why behaviourist are so important for many with dogs as a dog is always just being a dog, once you understand them, we can all live happily together. :-)

What do you think about the idea that we need to establish OURselves as the Alpha?

Well, let's go back to the wolf, a wild wolf, now even man in his log cabin way back can befriend the wolf with food, feed the wolf and it will look upon this man differently to other men, whom it would generally hide from, is it accepting him as an Alpha? No it's not, it is accepting him as a source of food, it may even protect that man in the future depending on how the relationship developes, but it is definitely not an Alpha role.

Some, infact most dogs accept us as friend and provider, in turn we can weel our authority over what they do, where they go, and doing as we ask, a dog will happily do what it thinks makes us happy.  However some dogs need more of an authority figure rather than friend in these cases then in a way we may take on more of an Alpha type authority role, we have to show that we have the stronger will, food alone will not have a dog eating out of our hand so to speak, but taking on the roll of an authority figure is done by stern eye contact and voice control, alpha rolls etc, don't necessarily help, (we're not dogs) but sometimes we need to show our authority, dogs understand body language, eye and voice control very, very, well, it is all that is usually needed.

Cant really join in because I dont know the alpha bit and  I havent had our two that long really and Im no expert. In our household Whistler (cocker 8 weeks older than Jake the Border) seems to have set the hirearcy, maybe because he was in first.
Jake came homeat 8 weeks.
Jake was reared in a barn, not handled much and really wild he pinned Whistler to the floor within 20 seconds of meeting him! Then things changed if Whistler takes a ball or stick that Jake plays with he keeps it, Jake will not take it off him. When he drops it Jake will retrive it and carry on playing fetch. Whistler does not do fetch, he knicks the ball/stick to take it away from Jake, gets bored and drops it.
Whistler will not eat with Jake in the room. We feed Jake outside Whistler in. Whistler will not touch Jakes water bowl food or water - Jake will eat out of Whistlers bowl but not drink out of his water bowl!! Jake sleeps (in the ofice) in Whistlers bed despite having one of his own, Whistler sleeps on the floor. If Jake is away with OH Whistler will sit in his crate. Jake always visits Whistlers crate as soon as Whistlers gets up am?
We find them fascinating, if Jake is getting a cuddle Whistler is jealous and visa versa, so you end up with two on your lap if your unlucky!!
If any dog touches a stick Jake is playing with otr in his mouth he is aggressive, but not with Whistler. Both love children and we have a few visiting at any one time.
Keep going with this thread its great.

Sorry for this to be such a long stoary but very good topic and could use some insight ?
I am a little confused how things are developing with now my 3 dogs. Snoop my 9yr old is I feel the boss, Tinkerbell bitch of 4- bosses him though-now I have Starkey, Tinker's brother it is very interesting to see how things are going. He loves his sister millions and will play fight all day, he will get told off my her for a toy,bone or stick which doesn't bother him.
Snoop tried to play fight with him by nibbling his ears and Starsky got frightened and fled to the kitchen and looked upset- he can not handle Snoop having one of his mad moments playing and acts very fearful when Snoop does this. He has known Snoop since he was born- but acts like he does not trust him- they have drunk out of the same water bowl and when snoop was on lots of pain med's and not his normal self- I was shocked one day that Starsky stuck his face in Snoops food bowl when eating his tea- I interveid told Starsky to stop- just in case Snoop got nasty with him.
Now Snoop is better and back to his lively self he will after tea get all frisky and want to play with Tinkerbell by the puppy bowing and nuzzling her ears etc when Snoop did this the other night Tinker launches at him rather savage but snoops loves it anyway and has always carried on regardless- now this time- Tinker went up to him savage and then Starsky made full eye contact with Snoop and growled at him?  Snoop just walked away and tried a little while later to nuzzle starsky's ear and make friends where starsky just lay down Snoop was standing over him in a friendly manner.
They do lie together on the quilt bed I have in the front room and snoop will now lie next to him. Starsky will not cuddle up with snoop but with his sister only.

I again told Starsky off for growling at Snoop- when he only wanted to play- am I wrong to of interfered? I think he was backing up his sister not realising that's how they play- should I let them all just get on with it and not correct him? Number 3 dog Starsky has only been here for 4 weeks or so full time and has really come on in his confidence which I'm very happy about. I would just love him to get on with Snoop to play and be relaxed with. Should I start just taking the boys out together? Leave old bossy breeches at home?

It looks as though you may have a shift of heirarchy coming up here.

Snoop is 9 the average lifespan of your breed is 12-14ish so he is coming up to the latter quarter of his life, you've recently brought in a 4 year old, although I know you say they have known each other previously it is not the same as permenantly living together, if Starsky had always lived with Snoop there would be a much stronger bond and a deeper respect in keeping Snoop as the respected older dog.

Tinkerbell has openly welcomed Starsky he is a strong young male. Tinker does not know that Starsky is her brother, that part you need to dismiss from your mind, dogs don't work like that, their friendliness is nothing to do with being siblings, he is a male, she is a female. Unless your 9 year old is a very strong solid example of the breed, she will see Starsky as a higher ranking male now, bitches don't need to respect dogs ages, they opt for the stronger and fitter male, unless Snoop is a lot larger and has a strong will she will pop Snoop further down in the pecking order, which is why..............

Tinker went up to him savage and then Starsky made full eye contact with Snoop and growled at him?  Snoop just walked away

She is letting him know his crown has slipped, the fact that he walked away, could mean that he does submit to the change, or he may re-group and try to get it back. (Hope not)

Keep an eye on things, and yes interfere with the food for if not the simple fact that Snoop should not have his food taken away, feed them seperately if need be.

Hopefully things will just slide in naturally, but I'm a little worried about the breed the males can be very pig headed can't they with other males? So do your best to make sure there are no alltocations, due to the breed I would intervene if anything starts up and seperate before a fight occurs.

Hopefully it won't Snoops is acting very well about it all, fingers crosssed. :-)

Thanks for that Carrington,

It has struck me that Starsky have never interacted at all with male dogs only with his mother & sister & snoop. When I introduced my friends boy Rodney aged 2 [boxer]- Starsky was fear aggressive raising lips and eye balling somewhat [in my house] but after taking Starsky & tinker with Rodney out for a ramble on only 2 occasions and then took tinker & starsky to Rodneys house [ being only the 3rd time the 2 boys had been together] they were really sweet with each other- lying next to each other then putting there chins onto each others bodies Starsky doing it first then some moments later Rodney doing it to him. All males are castrated so the only sex issue is Starsky getting a little randy with Tinker so yeah not the done thing to do to your  sister- she gets mega angry when he gets like this and I don't interfere at all.
I think as well last night Tinker even had a go at Starsky for going for my cat while eating ! She's a good girl.

Seems mad for Starsky to of met Rodney 3 times now and I can see they have bonded but Starsky has not ever with Snoop - maybe like you said it is snoops breed he was a very dominate dog- even though Tinker is a feisty cow with them all- she did get headbutted by  Snoop in the past so he did give off an ora that I couldn't even see. Starsky moved in when Snoop was in a bad way medically so Starsky would not know how he can flip good thing about snoop he only has a pop and I have never known him not to react to my loud voice so any trouble would be over in a second. I suppose in 6 months time things will be established  everyone will know their place. Harmony will rein... well I hope so :-)

I've just been looking at our pack now that Bentley has gone. The Jacks never played with each other or any other dog, unless we instigated a ball game.

Bentley would play with my Bernese when he was around and they would get quite silly. I just feel and wish that the Jacks would be a little more fun around each other off their own backs.

Me thinks that i really should look at getting another Bernese soon, as i love to see dogs play together. Thats not the only reason for getting another dog, its something i have been thinking about for a while. My Bernese is slowly calming down and training is going very well, so much so that my trainer thinks i should do high end obedience with him. Not sure about that, but it gave me a guide to how i'm doing.
Also today while at the park i recalled my boy over to me and got him to react to other commands. A lady then came over and asked me if i was a dog trainer. I'm not and said so but it made me realise that i am doing something right with my boy.

Well, let's go back to the wolf, a wild wolf, now even man in his log cabin way back can befriend the wolf with food, feed the wolf and it will look upon this man differently to other men, whom it would generally hide from, is it accepting him as an Alpha? No it's not, it is accepting him as a source of food, it may even protect that man in the future depending on how the relationship developes, but it is definitely not an Alpha role.

I will print this all off and read again and absorb as there is so much information going on.....is it not a fascinating subject.
Part of the reason I joined in is because I am confused or is it bemused by the amount of differing opinions there are out there about how we should handle our dogs based on observation of wolves and/ or dogs!!   From Jan Fennel to Turid Rugaasen to Ian Dunbar or Cesar Milan and maybe even good old Barbara Woodhouse.
My disadvantage seems to be that I only have the one boy...maybe I should build on that??!

I think to get the best out of any dog what you need to remember is that all breeds have different characters and traits, so firstly you need to understand your own breed, what it's purpose is for that is the the basis of it's needs and reactions to how best to train it, but ontop of that each dog born will also have it's own personality, if you are ever lucky enough to watch a litter from as young as 5 weeks differing personalities are already evident, although so is their breed traits. So any one book is never going to know your dog, even a book of your own breed as dogs personalities do all differ, that is something that only the owner through spending a lot of time with a pup will grow to know, is it food, is it kindness and fuss, is it a stern voice, that helps your pup to learn? A book will not tell you that or know your dog. 

All books are only a guide and the writers opinion, they may fit in perfectly with your own dog, they may not. In a way dog forums can be more helpful as you don't just get that one opinion you can have an idea and then someone else will have another, in-between hopefully most people can find their own forged opinion through living with their own dog and seeing what works and not just being a sheep and following an author. Like many I've worked with lots of dogs many from the same breed and although the basic training is there, they all tend to need certain variations.

There are quite a few of us lucky enough to be able to watch a real pack of dogs in action, and a lone dog will act differently, I would always say it is fine to read, but always, always use your own instincts as to what will work for your dog, your the one who knows him/her. The only thing I would absolutely always say is aggressiveness causes a dog to either become afraid or eventually an aggressor and would not use any techniques of force.

I would also say the same when using a behaviourist or trainer, if you can see your dog is very unhappy then stop, it is wrong for your dog, they all work differently and all dogs should never be treated the same. :-)

Use your own instincts.

Great thread!

Our 5 year old bitch Freya is top dog.  She has to have all the new toys, even if she doesn't want to play with them.  She will sit and guard them until she gets fed up and allows the others to play with them.  Our dogs are free fed and share a very large bucket of food happily, but if we change the brand for any reason she has to eat her fill before she will allow any of the others to get near. 

Dog number two is Lola an 8 or 9 year old bitch (rescue so we are unsure) and she just goes with flow.  She is very laid back and lets Freya do as she pleases, but I do think that these two are pretty equal really.  If Lola  really really wants something Freya will give it up, but this rarely happens.  Lola is just happy to sit back and watch.  Lola is also very good with the youngsters, bitches aged 18 months and 11 months, she will play with them and is very maternal towards them.

The two youngsters torment our only male dog to bits.  They like to play with him and because he is bottom dog he puts up with it.  They have to be really really pushing it for him to snap at them but then he his very apologetic towards them. 

I don't know if the two younger girls will be pretty equal with each other as they are now, or if an order will become apparent between them.  What I do find strange, and I don't know if its a breed thing, is that our Weimaraner bitch (top dog) and our Weimaraner dog (bottom dog) aren't particularly bothered about playing, either with the other dogs or with toys.  It is the Ridgeback Lola and the youngsters Poppy (Staffy) and Skye (Standard Poodle) who all chase each other round like mad things, play fighting and playing with toys.

What I do find strange, and I don't know if its a breed thing, is that our Weimaraner bitch (top dog) and our Weimaraner dog (bottom dog) aren't particularly bothered about playing, either with the other dogs or with toys.

Yes ditto, I think we can say that is the sign of most Alpha bitches, I've always found the Alpha's don't play like the other bitches, with toys (although they may commendeer them) and also newly introduced pups, more like the Lion King watching the pride, but not getting their hands (or paws :-) ) dirty.

Would that be why my Cocker  Whistler doesn't really play and the border Jake does all the time? I thought it was just because cockers dont play and borders do? Jake will even pick up a stick and walk around with it in his mouth all day. I have only seen Whistler do that if he has managed to nick it off Jake, he is more likely to drop it in the river so Jake cant have it!