Jake and Whistler both had collers on from day 1 we got them!! Whistler (show cocker) has a material one, currently the dog about town has a gold one on, plus when that gets pony poohed enough I swap it for a red number with bones all over it!!! Jake has a leather one we got at crufts, he had a blue material one from Pert City up to his leather one, they never go without a coller.

Routine looks fine but I think 9pm bed time is a  bit early, mine wouldn't last until 7am.  Mine go to bed not before about 11pm and as babies are awake before 7am.

I don't crate preferring to restrict access to one room and outdoors, except at night to give other dogs peace to sleep, and if I am doing something in the kitchen that needs pup shut away from danger.

> a pup from the background you have described
> is no way suitable for a family pet
> and aggresion of this nature at that age is very worrying
> one of the reasons we  have so many BYB and puppy farmers is
> because people buy their puppies
> and it often ends in heartbreak

That is a good point, breeding can and does make an awful lot of difference to a dogs behvaiour and is one of many reasons why BYB/puppy farmers should be avoided at all costs, however the owner has a HUGE bearing on a dogs behaviour, a 'bad dog' in the hands of a good/suitable handler will not be 'bad', I believe it is only extreme cases when a dog is beyond saving and this is a 4 month old pup, young enough to be taught, guided and given alternate out-lets to this behaviour.

A little story...
My OH's nan, 'Peggy' decided that she wanted a new dog for compnay, she was 79 yrs old at the time and disabled (she can only walk a few foot unaided and can't bend down), despite all the families recomendations of getting an older rescue dog or retired greyhound she insisted on getting a puppy (family had agreed to take on dog in the event of her death and to do the daily dog-walks).
This puppy was from an accidental mating on a farm, it was a springer cross collie, it stank to high-heaven as it had been raised in a barn in it's own filth. This cute little bundle of fur grew into a nightmare of energy and teeth, he would bite and chase anything, Peg had absouluty no control over him and ignored all advice to get him to training classes, he pooed & weed all over her house, the poor cats were to scared to be in the same room as him. The dog would escape if he could an run off or hours on end. Peg never taught him bite-inhibition as she thought he would 'grow out of it'. 
After 12 months Peg finally admitted she couldn't cope, her legs were covered in cuts and bruises where he would jump up at her and scratch her with his claws and her hands were covered in cuts and bruises from his teeth, he had no respect for her (no respect for anybody) and would use her hands has chew-toys or bite her if she tried to control him. I refused to visit her with my children as the dog would get exited and jump up at them, snapping at thier faces and had made my eldest boy cry by biting his nose and caused a bleedin scrath. One of Peg's nephews agreed to take the dog on, he has several acres of land, works from home and was willing to put the time & effort into the dog. In a mere couple of months the difference in the dogs behaviour was amazing and now you wouldn't believe it's the same dog, he is well mannered, perfectly obeidient and a very happy dog. The dogs breeding or background never changed, the only change was the owner and subsequently the way he was treated.

mastifflover

however the owner has a HUGE bearing on a dogs behaviour, a 'bad dog' in the hands of a good/suitable handler will not be 'bad', I believe it is only extreme cases when a dog is beyond saving and this is a 4 month old pup, young enough to be taught, guided and given alternate out-lets to this behaviour.

i agree with you
i really hope the owner can turn puppy round
i just wish people looking for a family pet would do some homework before they get a puppy
they should be enjoying it
not worrying about if its going to bite somebody

> i just wish people looking for a family pet would do some homework before they get a puppy
> they should be enjoying it
> not worrying about if its going to bite somebody

Couldn't agree more, research beforehand can save an awfull lot of trouble for both the owner and the dog.

I think looking through the post the owner did her reserch and choose this pup because of it's breeding as she wanted another like her existing dog..however, maybe I am bias but once more a case of cross breeds not breeding true....obvously her first is a great dog, we have no idea if he came from the same breeder but it would appear that the mix did not work quite right this time.
However this is diverting from the problem and I for one believe that a dog of this nature (and showing it's aggressivness at such an early age. Yes I believe, from the posts, it is showing agression and not just puppy bad manners) will be a real challenge for a general family pet. Possibly in the right hands it will turn around..whether the OP is the "right hands" or not remains to be seen. I hope so, for all's sake!
The OP is in need of some very good help, it would seem she is dealing with a big problem and your every day pet dog trainer may not be enough, I think she needs help from a very expierienced trainer. She obviously has some expierience with dogs as her other would appear to be well trained and very sociable, this pup however is biting without warning or reason...biting handlers and children alike, biting other dogs,
running riot if off lead.etc..Much as we would all like to help I think it would be foolish to think a remedy can be sought on a forum no matter how much expierience is available here.
Find a very good trainer who has dealt with this kind of thing before and take everything back to basics...regrow the trust that should be between dog and handler and build from there.
Aileen

I just posted an extensive reply and my computer let me down, damn. I hate it when that happens!

Anyway, my suggestion is in agreement with some others on here, which is to not rely any longer on second hand advice (that is meant kindly of course!) but to get someone in to see the pup pronto. The reasons for this are that I believe you need someone to see you with the pup and see what is happening, which we can't do on here :)

The person you mention - "k9 psychology" ... that bit sounds dodgy to me (are you in the UK?). Where did they learn about canine psychology? Some dog handlers are very old fashioned and may be fine with their dogs but they are not always capable of understanding or helping with behavioural problems and may give advice which worsens teh situation, therefore you do need someone experienced and reputable, I'd suggest from the aforementioned organisations.

Never try the free papers, yellow pages etc because anyone can set themselves up as a trainer/behaviourist these days!!!

Good luck and kind regards

Lindsay
xx

I think this pup needs to see a proper qualified apbc behaviourist and needs to see one asap. I'm not sure why your vet hasn't already referred you to one, it is standard procedure at our practice.

(are you in the UK?).

Oops sorry, just seen you are in Wales :)

These may be your options, these are for North Wales:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/regions.php?region=nwales

Sarah Heath has a very good reputation.
Not heard of the other behaviourist but she's learnt at the right places and has
plenty of hands on experience with dog training.

Another option might be:
http://www.midwalesdogtraining.co.uk/Behaviour.htm

I know of this behaviourist and her reputation is good, but she may be too far from you. However,
she may be able to recommend someone more local to you who she would consider really good.

Problem is some of the behaviourists may be rather booked up so don't delay whatever you do :)
Also please  note I don't actually "recommend" anyone, I'd suggest always checking out people yourself
to your own satisfaction.

I agree your problem is worrying and you need sensible, professional help. Good luck.

Hth
Lindsay
x

In my defence
I didn't pin the pup by the throat :( I held her shoulders and put her in the down position only for a few seconds it didn't help I haven't done it since because it just made the situation worse when I released her she bit me, the reason I pinned her in the first place was because I was told it would stop her (hands up who hasn't taken some crap advice in their time)

I have an appointment at the vets tomorrow so that she can be checked out fully, we have been on a long quiet walk today to give me time to reflect.

Merlot I am willing to do anything to make this right, which is why I followed all the advice from the first post and gave it time to work I was so optimistic, I really thought I could turn things around, but with all the will in the world it hasn't happened yet, which is why I have posted again, to be fair to most of you who have seen the depth of this problem and empathised all I can say is thank you for your support and understanding.

Melody, I hope you don't think my posts were too negative about you, they weren't...I just see a very sad and dangerous situation which is why I am so worried about a) Your Family! and b) the dog! It's not easy and I am not apportioning blame...I think it is a matter of all sorts of ingredients in the pot! Please do seek help as you are doing, make sure there is nothing pyhsically wrong with the dog...then make an informed decision about the future. My thoughts are with you, it's not an easy situation to be in. All the best, Dawn

PS It is, as someone else has commented on, hard to give advice when we aren't seeing the situation first hand...but regardless, I still feel the situation is serious enough to warrant urgent help...take care.

newfiedreams

I didn't interpret what you said as being negative, you are right it is a very sad and dangerous situation not just for me and the children but for the pup too,

my vet works with a Jan Fennel expert so I am guessing that will be his advice if there is nothing physically wrong with the pup tomorrow

At the end of the day the pup is a pup she should be enjoying the ride so to speak and destroying things when noone is looking :)

To be honest the rose tree incident gave me the smallest glimmer of hope that  she realy is just a baby

that has nothing to do with anyone remotely connected with Rosemary lolx

Hi Lindsav

Thanks for the links I am about to call Sarah Heath who is closest to me in the first link :)

xx

Melody2005,
Was just about to say please follow up on Lindsay's info. Let us know what the vet says and how you get on. If you are insured check to see if you are covered for Behavioural problems as this could help on the financial side.

To be honest I just feel like crying it is so sad...

Well I cant add much to what other people have already said.  I have BCs and they are hard work getting the balance between routine, boundaries, mental stimulation etc etc. 

You say you take the pup on a long walk.  Can I ask how long?  I stuck to the 5 mins per month rule and this has worked well.  I do find if pups are walked for long periods this makes them overtired and irritable so this may just be compounding your problem.

The very best of luck and hope your visit to a behaviourist is fruitful.

good luck
i hope it works out

Quote by RReeve: My collie x dog drew blood all the time as a pup, and it was improved by using technique of simply quietly and calmly putting him in his crate when he did it, just for a short time to calm down. (screaming like a pup as some suggest, or shouting 'no' etc only seemed to make it worse, turning away and ignoring him without putting him somewhere just made him more persistent).
I had alot of negative about him, too, from a vet nurse and subsequently from the first obedience class we went to, saying he was very aggressive.
I think this made me more worried and i saw him in a negative light, every time he bit anyone i felt sure he was going to turn into a really aggressive adult, and we would have to get rid.
I went to a different obedience class where the trainer (she is expert in GSD) was really positive about him and could see his good qualities.
Melody - despite all the negatives in this thread, if you are going to do well with your pup you need to believe you can.  Your pup has a shocking level of spirit but you can harness this and use her strong will to work for you, with the right approach.  You need a trainer who understands this behaviour and isn't horrified by it. Many working background dogs can be like this - it's not really all that unusual. The working dogs who hae the real issues are the ones who apparantly seem good as pet pups so the owners do nothing with them until the dog is 6-9 months old and suddenly the owners find they can't cope. Because you are working hard now then you will get there if you want to which you do sound like you do! Think of it possitively as a challenge.  And with the added challenge of training the kids as well.  :)

But I think it is an awful shame you encouraged such a bad breeder, it is not acceptable to breed and rear pups with such a bad standard of care. I can't say that enough. It is very sad.  Even for £50 a pup or whatever you pad for the cross it is not an acceptable for pups to be cared for so badly.

As Freelancerukuk said  "You will now see that a four month pup that shows this level of aggression has rung warning bells for a number of us on this forum. I fear that your pup is either very damaged, of poor genetic material, or both. You are confused and have every right to be. You are out of your depth" And I whole heartedly agree.

You have been given so much advice here from many well meaning people - but I'm afraid some are underestimating the problem and comparing it to their own experiences. How can you sift through and pick the things you feel will improve the situation?
This little timebomb needs expert work now or the poor little thing will get more and more unpleasant to be with and less suitable for a family environment. The window of opportunity for this little one wont be open for long I fear. IMHO of course.

I'm not qualified to give you any advice - not a behaviourist, and never owned a Collie - but I just wanted to offer encouragement. You obviously care about this poor little puppy and I do so hope you can get it right both for her sake and your own.

I'm so glad you've contacted Sarah Heath. Please don't be persuaded by your vet to go doen the Jan Fennell route. It might work for some dogs, but not for yours.

I do have a query for you. Several people have spoken about the puppy being under-stimulated. But you describe a very busy day, and I can't help wondering if the opposite is true. I have terriers and, especially when they were puppies they sometimes found it hard to give in and rest, even when they were tired - just like little kids I guess. That's when they became crabby and noisy. This puppy (does she have a name btw?) is only 4 months old - mine hadn't even gone on a formal walk by then, although they had been exposed to lots of different experiences in a safe way. To me she sounds as if she is really a very scared little girl who is acting brave.

Thanks for the links I am about to call Sarah Heath who is closest to me in the first link

That's great, I really hope that she can help you get to the bottom of this problem :)

Don't get disheartened, chin up! :)

Pup was brought up with mum chained, pups had little human interaction except for feeding times where she would share a tray of food with her siblings, pups looked healthy enough apart from the obvious fleas, pot bellies = worms and covered in poop from walking to and from mum.

My puppy wasnt covered in poo and didnt have fleas when I got him, sounds like your pup was from a possible puppy farmer as the mumn chained up? Why? Dogs covered in poo and wee, AND with fleas, why?
I would have walked away so fast my feet wouldnt have touched the floor lol

At least your trying to find a solution to the problem tho and good luck with it.

> Carrington thank you x

You are soooooo polite!!