If witts have an end I am at mine :{

I have written about my pup before and followed all of the wonderful advice I was given, however it has been a couple of weeks now and she is still very aggressive
on Sunday my daughter brought her staffie for a visit and the pup went for him drawing blood which ended up all over my house, last night she went for my older boy and again drew blood she narrowly missed my 9 year old in the process, she has bitten me and drew blood at least 5 times, she isn't play biting she really means it, she has a crate so she isn't given free roam unless I am there to keep an eye on her, she is let out at least 5 times into our massive garden to play with her ball (which she can retrieve nicely, she is walked every day at least once, she is eating well, dry and fresh food she will sit, stay, lie down, heel, her recall isn't as good as it used to be but that is no biggie.

also she barks constantly day and night sometimes all through the night,

I am concerned to be fair and would really like some help,

Mel x

What breed is she a border?

Sounds like you need a vet referral to a good behaviourist.

I would emphasise very clearly to her what you want from her. Less time in a crate if possible, less activity because that just makes her higher,  instead calmer brain exercising activity. Keep her on a house line all the time, and on a line in the garden. This gives the kids control from a distance without having to physically challenge her. They must use their voices to control her and not physical speed or strength because physically she is the higher ranking species. We are only higher ranking then the dog because of our mental ability.  So no grabbing the dog but she comes to you and she will come to you because she is on a line and this gives you the chance to be patient and use whatever method works for her to make her want to do what you are wanting her to do.  I don't know how much you use the crate in the day but it will make her frustrated unless she is patiently trained to be relaxed in the crate. And her time out of the crate isn't free time it is puppy appropriate structurered time directing her in the way you want her to go. And of course some zooomies time. 

So do not accept any of this behaviour. She is on a lead she has to have a 100% successful recall, she can't escape, she has to be  good girl. Then focus on building up all the behaviours you do want, so train her. Give her brain a lot of short exercises to do. and lots of clear opportunities to get things right so she won't be so frustrated.

Also carry a bone or tug toy so as soon as she is frustrated and needs to use her teeth she can have the bone or toy to chew on and release her pent up frustration. Then as an adult when she gets that feeling she will go and get the bone. Mine will do this now still as an adult dog when she gets really  hyper she starts jumping around and can't contain herself she will automatically suddenly check herself and gets a bone and chews like crazy!

Each pup is differemnt. We've had one like this and it was more like having a pet tiger then a fluffy puppy, but we soon had her sorted and now she's a real gem. :)

She's bitten you five times and drawn blood. You feel this is not play biting. I agree 100% with MaraianneB. Don't try to follow advice here, get her seen by a vet and if all is okay physically you need a referral to a good behaviourist.

You are not going to like what I am going to write, but I think you are not the right owner for this girl. She is about 4 months old & you obviously don't have a clue how to treat a working breed puppy despite having owning another of the same breed-who I presume you had before your children arrived.

She needs an outlet for her energy & brain, she needs structure in her life. My BC puppy as never drawn blood from my other dogs, but my oldest boy put him firmly in his place from day one. When we had our rescue GSD bitch she put up with various puppies hanging off every part of her & they did draw blood on the odd occasion. She did eventually put them gently & firmly into their place @ the bottom of the pack, that is the role of the Alpha dog/bitch with puppies. My oldest boy is a very dominant male & brooks no inappropriate beaviour from the other males, but allows my bitch almost free rein(she is still entire)

You need to get your act together & go to training classes & learn how to teach your bitch her manners in a motivational way.

You joked about her eating the clicker you had been given-why did you leave it where she could reach it ?

She barking constantly-why ? is it whilst she is crated ? How long do you crate her for ? Do you use it for punishment ?

This is not a situation for a "quick"fix. You need to set out a training plan & everyone has to stick to it.

TBH I feel that you should not have obtained this puppy without a lot more thought. If she is one of the Bernese Mountain Dog x Border Collie/Working Sheepdog mixes then she may be totally the wrong breed for your current circumstances

Hi Freelancer it is definatly not puppy play biting. she really means it, it will be times when for example I am putting on her outside collar, she will turn and bite me with full on snarling, she is the same with my other dog he can't even sniff her food bowl without her going for him even if she has eaten, I make sure he eats before her every day, when my daughter brought her dog over at the weekend the pup just flew at him snarling she tore his ear which sprayed blood everywhere, I am using a line on her so I have control 100% of the time because I no longer trust her with my son, she has in her crate real bones to chew a kong filled with treats and various things placed on the crate which she usually works out how to get them inside,

her play is quite structured, she is on a line in the garden due to her biting ankles or running into backs of legs (this biting I am sure is quite playful but hurts nonetheless)  she is on a line when we go out walking as her recall isn't 100%

we do heel work and basic obedience every day

I have asked my vet for advice he put me in contact with a trainer who specialises in Jan Fennel methods she charges quite a lot for a consultation, I have read on here that JF methods aren't really all that good

Am a bit lost to be fair

Moonmaiden to be fair you don't know anything about me, I am asking for help

If you have some concerns then ask the question.

Don't make stuff up because it isn't helpful,

I have to now defend myself and my actions to you and I don't even know if you are qualified to make these sort of judgements
I think you are not the right owner for this girl how exactly do you know?
She needs an outlet for her energy & brain, she needs structure in her life how do you know what she needs? How do you know she doesn't have these things already?
you obviously don't have a clue how to treat a working breed puppy again how do you know?
I presume you had before your children arrived. really?
She needs an outlet for her energy & brain, she needs structure in her life you don't know anthing about my daily routine
You need to get your act together mega harsh to be fair
go to training classes & learn how to teach your bitch her manners in a motivational way.
fair point the behaviourist who my vet reccomended advised me not to go to training classes yet
You joked about her eating the clicker you had been given-why did you leave it where she could reach it ? it was a joke
TBH I feel that you should not have obtained this puppy without a lot more thought. If she is one of the Bernese Mountain Dog x Border Collie/Working Sheepdog mixes then she may be totally the wrong breed for your current circumstances
  another judgement

What are your qualifications? If you are qualified wouldn't you have to assess the pup in her own home before making these statements

I actually have been raving about these forums I have told my friends that if they ever need advice about their dogs they can come here and pour out their heart without being made to feel stupid

my mistake

I think you're right to stay away from the behaviourist recomeneded by the vet, but you do still need some proffesional help, this way the person can see for thierselfs exactly what is going on and offer you guidence to suit your dog.
My sisters Boxer gets exited by walk time and went through a stage of grabbing her lead and growling, it looked & sounded like she was ready to kill, but it was just exitement. Noisy dogs can be mis-interpreted, especially if they are using thier teeth, over-exitedness can be confused with out-right agression. I'm not saying this is the case with your dog, but it emphasises the need for a profensional to see your dogs behaviour and make an assement in person. My sisters dog was also a nighmare for grabbing your shoes/trousers or even yanking all the washing off the line - if it moved she wanted to play with it, but she has always been very soft mouthed so never actually hurt while hanging off your leg.

A suggestion for when she is biting ankles - walk away slowly (stand still if you need to) but ignore her, do not make a fuss, the quicker you move and the more noise you make the more rewarding the 'game' is for her.

>with my other dog he can't even sniff her food bowl without her going for him even if she has eaten

feed your dogs in seperate rooms/keep them apart while eating and pick the bowls up as soon as they have finished eating, this will not solve the behaviour problem but it will stop your other dog from getting injured and help stop this forming into a more deep-seated habbit untill you have sought help and sorted her behaviour out.

> it is definatly not puppy play biting. she really means it, it will be times when for example I am putting on her outside collar, she will turn and bite me with full on snarling

I have just re-read your other post where you said you were advised to pin pup down when she was play-biting, I'm wondering if her 'attacking' you while you change her collar is born from lack of trust and she is acting defensively for fear of being pinned (or from her perceprion - attacked)?
When you change her collar how do you go about it? Do you just stand over her and grab her collar in order to change it (quite a natural way to change a dogs collar, but a very threatening way for a dog that lacks trust), or get her to sit in front of you so she can see what is about to happen?

ETA I'm not trying to have a go at you, I myself have done things very wrong in the past and used to think that pinning a dog down was a way to show it right from wrong :(

Thanks Mastifflover, I think you are right about feeding in a separate room, that makes so much sense,

I thought that maybe she was over excited but it is in the instance of putting on her collar she went for my hand I wasn't fast enough so she bit me quite badly (for puppy teeth) I very calmy continued to put on her collar but she was snarling the whole time, it isn't fear biting as her ears aren't flat back and her tail isn't tucked in, she is just all teeth and snarls, I am hoping I can stop this before her adult teeth come in :|

I have called pets at home and got some numbers from their notice board, what qualifications am I looking for? One person just did some training with a dog handler and is calling himself a dog psycologist, which obviously can't be true :)

I really hope I can sort her out she will have such a fun life here, we live surrounded by forests and mountains my older dog plays search and rescue with me and the kids he is awesome at it, the kids hide and he finds them then he comes to find me and leads me to them, He even has his own backpack with a pull handle for sledging, he pulls the kids sledge to the top of the hill then they get on and slide down he will keep taking it back up until they have all had a turn :)

I know the pup will love these games but I can't risk her playing until I am sure she can keep her teeth to herself x

On a note about her great great grandfather he was an amazing dog he would search out abandoned new born lambs in the snow on the mountain then he would stand on his hind legs and bark until someone came to rescue the lamb no amount of calling would make him leave the lambs side, one time he had to capture a lamb whos mother had died normally he would catch a sheep with his teeth on the wool by the shoulder (he wouldn't actually bite the ewe just grab the wool) and hold her until Ted came to get her with the lamb he caught it really gently in his front paws and held it to his chest until Ted came to get it, he was wow.

> Don't make stuff up because it isn't helpful,

Excuse me ?

You say you allow her out into your large garden 5 times a day ????? My dogs have access all the time .

What qualifications do I have ? 50 years of owning/training working dogs, 40 + years of dealing with rescue dogs with a multitude of problems from aggression to weeing when spoken to(ie a to z)& being able to turn these dogs around. I do not need fancy letters after my name to prove myself, after all if one goes on a course & does as instructed & pay-will one fail to get the qualification at the end-of course not & I know someone who has never owned a dog(& still doesn't)yet has passed courses & earns a good living as an animal behaviourist & another who as to keep her dogs separately because they cannot live together(one dog has already killed a puppy that the beaviourist bought in).

The fact that you have described having all these problems with her a good indication of your dogs lifestyle & needs

It is totally impossible to give advice over the internet when you have been having problems from such a young age. Any beaviourist that does not recommend training classes for a young puppy such as your-even i it is only for safe socialization for her-shows a lack of understanding of what dog training clubs are all about.

> I have called pets at home and got some numbers from their notice board, what qualifications am I looking for?

The following places have been recomended on here before :

http://www.apbc.org.uk/

http://www.apdt.co.uk/

I know you are not having a go and it is a really good question :) I ask her to sit and from the side I put the collar around her neck and fasten it,

She seemed to get over the pinning really quickly (I only tried it roughly a couple of times and not to hurt her) but as soon as I had let go she would carry on with the agressive behaviour, I realised that pinning was a mad idea with her that it was only going to make things worse so I set about using my hands as objects of curiosity and treats by spreading dripping on the palms and squeezing so she had to lick the fat from between my fingers which was heaven for her and yukkk for me lol ,

I am actually painting the worst picture of her but there are times when she melts my heart, which is why I am asking for help rather than rehoming her or having her put down

I put her outside today on her line for a pee I went to answer the house phone I must have been gone for less than 5 minutes when I returned outside to see what she was doing she was standing there with my rose tree in her mouth having dug it up she was as proud as punch :)

Hi Melody3005
Have you actually had your pup checked over by the vet for any physical problem?  Never mind the bit about asking the vet for behaviourist referral.  Could it be the pup is in pain which you trigger when applying the collar?  There are a number of physical things that could prompt her to act agressively - the first thing you must do is to rule this out with the vet.
I don't recall having read other postings, so I guess questions to be asked are: 
how old was she when you picked her up?
Did you get her from a breeder?  If so, have you contacted them for advice/guidance?
If she came from a rescue - have you contacted them for help?
Did she come from a puppy farm?  If yes, then this is one of the reasons puppy farms should be avoided!!
Are you feeding her a decent quality feed (ie not Bakers!!)?  Colourings, etc have same affect on animals as they do kids.
If you're going the behaviourist route, please get one that has been personally recommended to you - get references from past clients if possible.  You know, it is pretty easy nowadays to set yourself up as a behaviourist.  There are some very good ones (before anyone leaps in and shouts me down), but there are also some very, very inexperienced ones going from text book theory and sadly dogs rarely fit into that category.

Jake our BC cant eat with Whistler (cocker) rather Whistler will not eat with Jake in the room - no idea why. Our breeder said to growl at Jake, which my OH did from day 1, we dont have to now but if he gets really aggressive (usually over a "fetch") a growl still brings him to the floor. We have never really manhandled the dogs usually a bang on the table or door or even a shout stops them in their tracks.
I can only comment that our BC does not have access 24/7 he walks in with OH (3.5 miles) is office based then, around the block with cocker around 12/1ish. Walk home about 6ish and play and access when we are at home.
Its the cocker that can be a pain in the office as he wants to be cuddled and sleep on my feet. If I move so does he. Jake crashes out, then he will go in the truck on site with OH.
Weekends its about 2/3 hours walk am. Home or shut in if we are out. Walk again pm and access all night if we are watching tv and play.
I dont think we have any issues as collies (i understand) are bred for quick bursts of energy then a sleep. Cockers keep going all day really as they are not really designed to chase sheep just keep on going like the duracell bunny.
The biting is a problem, so take advice if you can. But as dogs are as individual as humans I would not make sweeping statements as to anyones suitability to have a certain breed of dog. But as I state Im no expert.

Hello Koolcad :)

In answer to your questions

I haven't had her checked over by the vet except when she went for her puppy jabs, I will arrange to do that today x

She was about 10 weeks old when I picked her up but it might be a little older, she came from a farm (not a puppy farm) her mother was chained the whole time, the pup was full of worms and fleas and covered in poop. I wormed and defleaed the mother and the whole litter before I picked her up.  I know the line she has been bred from which is why I chose her, although the conditions she was brought up in weren't ideal, she didn't have much human contact apart from being fed x

She is being fed Gelerts (mostly) I was feeding tesco puppy brand but after reading the label found it had masses of colours and e numbers so I changed it to Gelerts, she also has fish mixed in with her food or chicken, pork, lamb depending on what we have had for dinner the night before.

I will see what the vet says about her physical condition and go from there, the vet works with a JF behaviourist is it worth a shot?

:) thanks x

could you try a collar that can be left on at all times this way you are only attaching the lead and if you have a house line on you wont even need to clip anything on for a while until she gets use to you taking the lead and doing some work with her.

my sons and his partner have a border collie who is approx 1yrs of age, they have had so many problems with her re- digging, not eating, chewing, possive aggression, etc,, after long research any many phone call they have deceided to take her away to wales for 3 weeks to a behavorist and specilises in these dogs, its cost them a fortune but if works (which im sure it will) it will well worth it, she is a highly inteligent dog, i have no experience in these dogs, but im so relieved that they are doing somethink to help the dog and for a better life for themselves and the dog.

melody3005, where are you?  If you can give a location, nearest town etc you might find someone on here who can recommend a really good training class or someone to work with.

I can only base this on my own experiences but the trainer I go to for KC Good Citizens courses is excellent at all-round behaviour issues and is willing to spend time with each of the dogs and owners to discuss any other problems outside of the training course.  She is also a vet nurse which comes in handy too!  We are in between courses at the moment but I still email the odd question or two.  Luckily I have a very supportive and knowledgable breeder but I appreciate that isn't the case for many people.  I would imagine that others on here might be able to recommend their trainers?  Ours is nr Weston Super Mare if it helps.

In the short term, a very experienced dog owner might be able to observe you and family interract with the puppy and offer up a mirror to what is happening.  I don't advocate you take advice from just anyone but if they could watch what happens they might simply spot things you haven't yet seen.

I'm no expert by any means but from your description of her behaviour I'd be wanting a thorough vet check to see if there is something else going on.

Hi Benson :)

That is a good plan, I will get a suitable one, the two I use at the moment the soft indoor one and the stronger outdoor one which I felt wasn't as suitable to sleep in etc, am sure pets at home have a nice half way one :)

Hi Dogs a babe

I remember the Good Citizens courses while I was interpreting for the hearing dogs for the deaf, it seemed really friendly and unrobotic, some of the dogs were being rather playful and it seemed to make the commentator and everyone else laugh :) I liked that

I live in Snowdonia North Wales :)

Snowdonia how wonderfull,

Hi Melody3005,

Once more lots of advice and much of it good, but something is clearly wrong: either with your dog or between you (your pack) and your dog. You need an expert to visit and figure out what the problem is and go from there.

Yes, it is hard to find a good behaviourist. Ask your vet about the person they have recommended, find out how long they have been working with dogs and how much work they have done with aggressive dogs and with what success. Also find out if they have done much with working collies and collie crosses. I do believe that there can be significant differences in behaviour between breeds, so a gundog expert may not be right for you.

If the vet doesn't know you should ring the behaviourist and ask. If they seem the least bit defensive or overconfident forget it and move on. A good person will tell you to what extent ,if any, they think they can help you and it is only appropriate that you ask how well qualified they are to help.

I would also follow the links mastifflover gave you and see if there are registered ( with those associations) behaviourists in your area. I agree with monnmaiden that qualifications can mean something or nothing but you have to start somewhere. You might also try speaking to other vets in North Wales. I'll bet you there's someone in your area who specialises in collie problems.

Melody3005,
ran out of time to edit last post, but just read yours more carefully.

Your pup's start in life sounds pretty grim. You say Mum was chained up all the time and that your pup was undersocialised with humans. Well, this may begin to explain a little about your pup's behaviour. Where were Mum and pups housed? You say they the pups were covered in pooh, worm and flea-ridden. Were Mum and pups being properly fed? What is Mum's temperament like? What about the sire, do we know anything about him and his temperament?

You say you know about this line, what attracted you to this farmer and his breeding? What are the plus points?

We all know that the first 12 weeks of a pups life are key in terms of exposure to other dogs and to humans and to the world outside. Without those key learning experiences, or if the experiences are deeply unpleasant, the pup may never into develop into a sound, balanced adult. We also have to consider the genetic material and the temperament the pup has inherited from its parents. If the parents are also snappy and aggressive, overall it doesn't look too promising.

You probably know the answers to the above and from those answers one can begin to assess how easy or difficult it might be to turn your dog around and whether you have the skills and time to do so.

Hi,

Sorry you are having such a difficult time.  A few points on things you have said, just because her ears aren't flat back and her tail isn't tucked most definitely doesn't mean it isn't fear aggression.  Dogs can show fear in a variety of ways and it can be quite difficult to tell sometimes.  A very large percentage of aggression is fear based and I would say with her lack of human contact and far less than ideal start in very important months in her life, it is quite likely that it could be fear based.  Especially after the pinning her incidents; you say that she appeared to get over it quickly but in reality you can't know that, I expect it has had a significant impact on her trust in you.  That's not meant as a critcism of you, you just followed bad advice but it will have had an effect on her none the less.

With reagrds to you asking Moonmaiden how she can know whether your pup needs an outlet and stimulation without meeting her, it's a given :-) All pups need it, just to different extents.  You have a working breed or mix of and she will likely need huge amounts in the way of brain work.  Teach her find it games, stay with the clicker traning and do some training with her everyday a few times a day for short sessions.  Get her some interactive toys such as kongs and treat balls, there are some great variations.  Make sure she has plenty of things to chew, she will be teething now and will need an outlet for that,

Hi,

Sorry you are having such a difficult time.  A few points on things you have said, just because her ears aren't flat back and her tail isn't tucked most definitely doesn't mean it isn't fear aggression.  Dogs can show fear in a variety of ways and it can be quite difficult to tell sometimes.  A very large percentage of aggression is fear based and I would say with her lack of human contact and far less than ideal start in very important months in her life, it is quite likely that it could be fear based.  Especially after the pinning her incidents; you say that she appeared to get over it quickly but in reality you can't know that, I expect it has had a significant impact on her trust in you.  That's not meant as a critcism of you, you just followed bad advice but it will have had an effect on her none the less.

With reagrds to you asking Moonmaiden how she can know whether your pup needs an outlet and stimulation without meeting her, it's a given :-) All pups need it, just to different extents.  You have a working breed or mix of and she will likely need huge amounts in the way of brain work.  Teach her find it games, stay with the clicker traning and do some training with her everyday a few times a day for short sessions.  Get her some interactive toys such as kongs and treat balls, there are some great variations.  Make sure she has plenty of things to chew, she will be teething now and will need an outlet for that, not just one or two chew things but make sure she can have easy access to something appropriate to chew where ever she is.  If you have ten toys for her then rotate them, so three down one day then three the next etc so the stay novel to her.

Be careful not to overdo her walks, as pups of this age can get over-tired and this can make things worse not only that but she needs her joints protecting while growing.  Try varying her walks so she gets new sights, sounds and smells to stimulate her.  Do some training on walks.

She should have no unsupervised access to the kids and when she and you are all together she should be wearing the trailing line.

As already suggested she should be fed seperately from the other dog so as not to add stress to feeding time.  She needs to learn that people/dogs near food bowl means only good things will happen and she doesn't need tp worry about having stuff taken away.  In the mean time you need to teach her a really reliable 'leave' and 'recall' stuff that you should be working into your daily training sessions.

Please don't leave her tied to your other dog at any point, it isn't his responsibility and he needs to be able to walk away from a pesky pup should he wish :-)  Especially if she has drawn blood from him at any point in play or not!

Leave a short light weight line trailing from her collar so that you don't need to be trying to get hold of her collar while she is trying to bite at you.  Carrying on regardless of how she is behaving isn't going to do either of you any good.  This way you can avoid confrontation while you work on getting her to see that hands near her collar is a good thing and she doesn't need to worry.

Most importantly she needs a vet check and a referal to a reward based behaviourist, I would strongly advise against going down the JF behaviourist route.  I would also recommend good training classes so that she can get the socialisation she desperately must need and so you can learn the best way to get what you want out of her. 

Overcrowded classes can do more harm than good so try and choose one with low numbers and one that only uses positive methods. 

Edited to add. Sorry about the double post, don't know how I managed to post half way through writing it and too late to delete it now.

Melody I'm very shocked that this pup is only 4 months old?  Is that right? She has drawn blood from yourself 5 times, almost your daughter and drew blood from your daughters Staffie and your older dog. :-(

Wow!  I think everyone will be in agreement that this is not normal puppy behaviour, pups can be very rough, they do playbite, their teeth hurt, but they just don't draw blood like this, I think we would all lock our pups in solitary confinement if they acted like pyranah fish!

You know and we know there is something very off here, and to be honest crating her when she is not exercising I personally do not agree with, but to be fair even crated for long on and off periods would not send a pup to draw blood, it may get hyperactive when let out and run around like a lunatic, but it should not bite to hurt, so I agree this forum just can't help anymore with this problem it really does need a specialist to watch what happens, why it happens?

BC's being a herding breed are more nippy, they are a very intellegent breed that need mental stimulation, but even so this pup is way beyond what I would class as normal even high drive behaviour.  If she has had no negative treatment she should not be defensive, so you need a good behaviourist to look at why this is happening.

I hate to ask the obvious question as to where this pup came from?  Was it a good breeder, what were the parents temperaments like? Did she come from a working background, which would mean she may have a higher drive, but I've never known a pup act like this. What does the breeder say? Personally if you can't find a good behaviourist quick, I would return her to breeder, she's not a pup I would enjoy whether her behaviour is due to her raising or a character flaw I think the breeder is best to deal with it, if this is her at 4 months I would hate to see her in 6-12, she needs an expert quickly if you are to keep her, or you'll have no control later on, so as helpful as the forum can be, we can not see her so you need someone who can. :-)

Carrington thank you x

another question, has she had her vet check yet? there are some liver problems dogs can have that cause behaviour problems, usually aggression etc. other symptoms are underdevelopment physically? maybe an idea to get vet to check for this, usually young pups that suffer from it. dogs can be nice one moment then they go kinda "loopy" the next and can bite and attack.

> BC's being a herding breed are more nippy, they are a very intellegent breed that need mental stimulation,

This is not a BC it is a Bernese Mountain Dog X WSD/BC(not F1 generation)

With reagrds to you asking Moonmaiden how she can know whether your pup needs an outlet and stimulation without meeting her

I meant how does moonmaiden know she isn't getting enough stimulation it is all relative to be honest a lot of that post was presupposed without asking me what exactly am I doing with her.

Let me give you as much background as I can so that everyone who is trying to help me gets a better picture :)

Pup was brought up with mum chained, pups had little human interaction except for feeding times where she would share a tray of food with her siblings, pups looked healthy enough apart from the obvious fleas, pot bellies = worms and covered in poop from walking to and from mum. I wormed and deflead mum and pups while I was doing that even though the mum didn't know me she didn't bat an eyelid she was quite happy for me to be there, the pups didn't seem to mind either.

I went to fetch the pup when I knew I was going to be able to settle her in without distractions, she seemed to fit in really well to begin with, I took her out to socialise (in arms) with other people and invited vacinated dogs round to play, all was good for the first maybe two weeks then over night she seemed to change and was ruling the house, she bit me and the children, more than puppy play, she would bite my sons ankles while he was peeing. She would act aggressive to other dogs even ones she had previously played with.

Her line is similar to my older boy Drym who is 10 now and that is why I chose her, because drym has been an amazing dog to own, he is smart, funny, has his own mind, he has actually bitten someone quite badly once before but the person he bit had been teasing him really badly unbeknown to me and Drym had had enough, the vet thought it was a brain tumour and told me that he should be pts he even made an appointment when I got home Drym lay his head on my lap and looked into my eyes and I just knew he wasn't sick, I said I would keep him until he didn't have a quality life and that was 4 years ago he is still loving life :)

Back to the pup

The advice I got from these forums made me decide to get a crate which I did and I began a routine which goes like this

Give or take 15/20 minutes and sometimes I alternate things so she doesn't get too rigid incase of emergencies :)

7am outside (on a line) to pee and poop
7.15 breakfast gelert puppy mixed with Gelert adult because she prefers that mixed with oily fish
7.30 in to the crate with kong filled with goodies everyone else gets ready for school etc

8.30 walk and garden time (she won't pee or poop outside the garden)

9.30 back in to the crate with outside toys which she has to work out how to get them to be inside toys
        sleep

11.30 out for garden time and pee and poop

11.45 basic obedience skills such as wait, recall, stay, heel, down, find the ball/ treats, retrieve.

13.00 lunch

13.30 back in crate for rest or play with toys if she isn't tired

15.00 walk to get kids, garden time pee and poop

15.30 back in crate while I make dinner, filled up kong toy and meaty bone

16.00 tea time if she is hungry but she often doesn't want or need this meal

Once we have eaten the rest of the evening is spent with family under supervision

18.00 dinner time

more outside garden play time then 21.00 bed time

She is given lots of things to work out like a water bottle attatched to the crate, she is an expert in getting water from it, smelly fish type chews which are put on the outside of the crate she can work out how to get them really quickly.

I have had dogs all my life and to be fair I have never met a pup of this age who is so agressive, I did pin her on advice but it didn't help it made her more agressive so I stopped straight away, I made fun out of my hands with dripping and cream cheese so she would associate licking them with treats, but it doesn't stop her being agressive when she gets it in her head that she maybe doesn't want to come inside or she sees a dog when we are out walking she bites me if she can get hold of something to bite, I thought about putting a muzzle on her but what sort of life would that be,  when my daughter brought her Staffie to play the pup was hanging herself trying to kill him when I tried to get her to relax she bit me. 

At the weekend when my daughter came she didn't tell me she was bringing the dog the pup had enough line to attack him when he wandered up to say hello I managed to pull her off, she is a lucky girl because if my daughters staffie was true to his breed there probably wouldn't be much left of her

Maybe I don't know what I am doing which is why I am asking for advice.  Most pups of her age are still in that "OMG isn't this wonderful, life is wow and omg I love you and you and ooo it's a butterfly, will this come apart if I do this" stage which is beautiful to see. I got a glimpse of this when she presented me with the rose tree she had dug up today, it was three times as big as her and she thought she was amazing, bless

I think I do need some expert advice but it is so difficult to find someone who is qualified to give it, my best friend works for the police maybe I can ask her for the name of one of the handlers

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help me :)

Hi again,

I'm sure her start in life will have a lot to account for - it doesn't matter how  good lines are if they don't have a good start.  All pups and Mum eating out of the one tray could account for her guarding behaviour with food.

It is possible that she wasn't right at all for the first couple of weeks and that it just took her that time to settle in and show how she was really feeling and that that is why her behaviour then changed.  A pup of this age is n'ttrying to be in charge or rule the house. There will be a reason for this behaviour and it is likely either fear based or maybe a medical problem could be causing this what sounds like extreme behaviour.

I would advise a vet check with a full blood panel to rule out medical causes first.

From your post of your routine there are certainly things I would change.  Are you doing training with her for over an hour in one go each day?  I would do maybe 4 training sessions of ten to fifteen minutes a day spread throughout the day, an hour is way to much for a pup of this age. 

She's also going in and out of the crate quite a lot during the day.  Is she in the crate over night aswell?  I would give her more in the way of interactive toys, I'm sure the water bottle now she's figured it out is easy for her.  Does she have access to a bowl of water aswell?  Do you have play time with her other than during that one training session?

I would also be careful about leaving things outside the crate for her to get in as this could just lead to her feeling frustrated.

While waiting for vet visit and behaviourist try not to put her in situations where you think she may react defensively and manage the environment so that there aren't as many triggers like if you know food is a possible trigger then manage the way you handle that.

A lot of police dog handlers are still quite old fashioned in training methods so I would be careful going down that route.  She sounds like she needs careful handling.  I hope you manage to get the help you need - she sounds like a confused little pup.

We mostly play during the training sessions it isn't all formal I just make sure we cover all the bases, like a little bit of heel work then play with her ball as a reward then ask her to wait until the ball has landed before sending her to get it, I made it sound much more formal than it actually is, and yes we have about an hour of play/training mostly play time, she gets put in the crate for naps but mostly she puts herself in and if there is noone else home the door is open she is only locked in if everyone is at home because it is a safer place for her and everyone else, otherwsie she would be biting ankles and hands again,

she has lots of play toys for the crate, she actually loves getting the treats that are placed on top of the crate she will happily spend time mouthing or using her paws if she gets frustrated she pops outside and stands on her back legs gets the treat and goes back inside to play with or eat it.

We have lots of small play times when she is in the garden I don't leave her alone (except if the phone rings) I am always chatting to her praising her soothing her.

There is always fresh water inside and outside the house not just her bottle.

While waiting for vet visit and behaviourist try not to put her in situations where you think she may react defensively and manage the environment so that there aren't as many triggers like if you know food is a possible trigger then manage the way you handle that.
  good point :) I actually close the crate when I am cooking for the kids so she isn't in a situation where she gets over excited by them chatting or walking from their rooms etc

I have found someone close by who sounds amazing

Mr C Jones
"Specialist Dog Trainer in the following:
Hydro carbons search dog and handler trainer,
Explosives and mines search dog and handler trainer, Narcotics search dog, Search and rescue,
Tracking dog,Obedience dog, Trained in K9 psychology, and Veterinary health care. Current employment Head trainer specialist Dog Company UK.  Head trainer for Global Rescue Services, training six disaster dogs for the New York Fire Department. "

The web link doesn't work though and he is no longer at the phone number but they think they might be able to track him down  x yay x

http://www.borders.co.uk/book/the-perfect-puppy-britains-number-one-puppy-care-book/823419/

No substitute for a behaviourist, and I think you need a good hands-on one to help you - but this is meant to be a good book - and I think she also did a Collie one, unless I am confusing her with someone else. If that's any help?

Hi Melody,
My maths is pretty bad,but i calculated that she spends more time in the crate then she does out,is this correct? Also,sorry if you've already said,but why cant she go out to the garden without a long line on?Is it just because she destroys stuff?
Bear in mind i am no behaviourist,but my first impression would be under stimulation and boredom??

I give you kudos for taking on this breed,as i do think they need experienced energetic owners.I couldn't do it..

>I do not need fancy letters after my name to prove myself,

Agreed.I have been saying this for years :-p

My maths is pretty bad,but i calculated that she spends more time in the crate then she does out,is this correct

She will put herself into the crate, the only time I close the door is when there is lots of feet in the house or I am cooking.

The line on in the garden is because one of my neighbours dogs showed her how to break out early on so if she is left in the garden by herself she will escape which means more stress, I have fenced up all the gaps in the garden but last time she was out without the line she managed to commando crawl through the 6 feet of brambles to get out, I am giving her plenty of exercise, lots of love and attention and on the whole she is awesome but she bites! Sometimes without warning, she means it, she draws blood, she attacks other dogs and at this age that really worries me, which is why I posted here in the first place.

She has a wonderful life compared to being chained all day and all night which is what happens to most dogs of her breeding.

You gave me your first impression Ktee under stimulation and boredom go back to the first time I posted here with the same problem there was no crate and she was given the run of the house, taken every where we went, learning new things, playing on the beach etc  she was biting then hard enough for me to be concerned. She is still getting all of those things and the problem hasn't gone away, it is worse which is why I posted again. 

Also Ktee when you asked Is it just because she destroys stuff?  destroying stuff is just part of being a puppy like my rose tree, I replanted it this morning but I am betting as soon as my back is turned she will dig it up again and yay to that. Destroying things is just normal puppy behaviour.

Thank you everyone for your advice on my situation but I think carrington has hit the nail on the head

Also I called the farm where I got her and had a word with the person who bred her (you don't want to hear the advice I was given) the other pup that was kept from the litter was chained ready for when it is old enough to work he didn't have a biting or a barking problem.

This is not a BC it is a Bernese Mountain Dog X WSD/BC(not F1 generation)

Is this another designer 'breed'? And why would they cross those two breeds? What's the benefit?

The pup sounds to be from a terrible background so what is the appeal?  Sorry I'm just terrible confused..... ?  Why get a pup for a family with little kids when it is from such an awful background and totally unsocialised?

And Melody I do seriously hope youy didn't pay the 'breeder' for your puppy! 

The ony way to stop these awful people breeding pups is to stop getting pups from them! To suport good practice and animal welfare by just getting pups from good caring and loving breers.

> Is this another designer 'breed'? And why would they cross those two breeds? What's the benefit?

Welsh Mountain Dogs. there used to be a website but it no longer exists

Melody,i know you have got some negative responses here,and i hope they haven't put you off. I have complete faith in the experienced members here,and that they will be able to help you sort this out.

Please stay strong and stick with it.With no doubt,some hard work and plenty of advice and back up there's no reason you cant end up with a happy,healthy well adjusted dog.

melody3005

You will now see that a four month pup that shows this level of aggression has rung warning bells for a number of us on this forum. I fear that your pup is either very damaged, of poor genetic material, or both. You are confused and have every right to be. You are out of your depth.

This situation is far too serious to be dealt with on the forum. If you want to keep the pup I would put all your energy into finding a reputable and recognised behaviourist and one that specialises in aggression.

Glad you have started looking for behaviourists. Not sure about the guy you mentioned. You are going to need someone who specialises in aggression and understands how to deal with a pup that has been damagingly and criminally undersocialised. He trains dogs to work in various capacities, many of these trainers would not deal with unusually aggressive puppies because the dog would never get through the selection process.

The farmer who bred her sounds totally irresponsible. Someone keeping a 4 month old pup on a chain needs to be reported. You won't repeat what the farmer's advice was to you, but it sounds like the pups may have been mistreated. The remaining pup may not bark or bite because he is still with his mother, on her chain, the tiny world he has grown up with, he understands and can cope with.

I don't want to sound negative, I haven't spent time with your pup, so anything I say is conjecture, but sorting her could be a very tall order and more than your, purse and your lifestyle can cope with. Because of her age it is also possible that she can't be put right, at least not enough to live with a family and children.

I am hoping that once your vet sees her they will see how bad she is and try a bit harder to get the right behaviourist on board. Perhaps your vet could speak to other practitioners in your area?

I do feel for you and know how distressing and bewildering a situation like this is and how desperate one feels to get help.

Freelancer I'm afraid I agree with you...for the life of me I can't figure out why a pup this young would be so aggressive?? There must be some reason, be it physical or inherited, that causes a dog to act like that?

A cross with a Bernese shouldn't be a bad thing neccassarily...Bernese are really laid back lazy dogs generally, usually just like to be wherever the owner is and they're happy. I think Collies are another thing entirely, recently I have heard of a few bad apples, probably poorly bred, hyperexcitable, epilepsy problems and some just down right too aggressive. Within a family environment I feel the dog is too unsafe to remain there, maybe too aggressive to go anywhere! Sorry, that's how I feel and if the Vet rules out a physical cause that CAN'T be treated I would euthanase the dog! Sorry, but you have to consider the time involved, the cost and any further problems in the future...if the dog needs a 'psychiatrist' at this age, then I feel there is no hope for the future!

Now I will wait for the backlash and hide behind a parapet!

(I'm also trying to work out how old MM really is!)

I am in agreement with Newfiedreams. A pup of this age showing such agressive tendances is a real worry..I could see some hope if the biting was confined to strangers but to be so agressive to its owners is very bad. Also the unpredictability of the attacks seems very odd..I am assuming from reading the posts there does not seem to be a trigger for the behaviour you can put your finger on?
I am no expert on this kind of behaviour and maybe a good dog trainer will help but the one person who needs to be absolutly unafraid of the dog is the owner or no amount of training will help...not saying you are afraid of her but as she gets bigger and stronger you may become fearfull of those teeth and then the cause will be lost!
It would be such a shame to see her leading a life of constant restraint on a chain like her mother and sybling but I can see just that sort of thing happening here if you don't get on top of it very quickly...or admit defeat and let her go.
Aileen
PS ...designer dogs..hybrid health...good for family homes..puts it all into perspective doesn't it!! all dogs are capable of inappropriate behaviour, mixing breeds is just as likley to produce trouble or even more likely as you are getting a very mixed bag of genes????

> for the life of me I can't figure out why a pup this young would be so aggressive?? There must be some reason, be it physical or inherited, that causes a dog to act like that?
>

as Monmaiden has allready pointed out - a lack of suitable outlet for the working drive could well be the route of this problem. Chasing children and biting ankles is a normal puppy behaviour, but will be compounded in a pup that is lacking enough stimulation, add to this a pup that may be lacking in trust due to being pinned down and you can easilly end up with this problem.

What I find more strange is pup taking herself back to her crate so often, this is a pup that has the energy to chase ankles and dig up plants in the garden - is she going to her crate because she is bored and the crate is her only sorce of out-let (OP puts treats etc on crate for pup to work out how to get them) or is she going to her crate because that is where she can feel safe?. My Mastiff at that age, allthough a very lazy, low-drive pup that needed lots of sleep, would rather be jumping all over our other dog or the kids than going to his bed for some chill-out time (while he was awake that is, he slept an awfull lot), I was constantly trying to find new ways to keep his brain occupied and I chose the breed due to the lack of drive and the fact they are so 'chilled out' - I wouldn't like to think how unruly my pup would have been if he lacked stimulation, let alone a high-drive pup.

Another point to consider - how many pups would be drawing blood if they hadn't learnt bite-inhibition?

BUT none of us have seen this pup 'in action', we all can still only guesse as to the possible cause and the suitable solution will depend in part on the cause.
Boredom-breaking and trust building may be all that is needed or there may be deep-seated fear and/or a high prey-drive. The OP really needs to get pup checked by a vet to rule out any contributing medicle factors and get proffesional help ASAP.

Lots of people on here who are very concerned that your pup has drawn blood.
My collie x dog drew blood all the time as a pup, and it was improved by using technique of simply quietly and calmly putting him in his crate when he did it, just for a short time to calm down. (screaming like a pup as some suggest, or shouting 'no' etc only seemed to make it worse, turning away and ignoring him without putting him somewhere just made him more persistent).
I had alot of negative about him, too, from a vet nurse and subsequently from the first obedience class we went to, saying he was very aggressive.
I think this made me more worried and i saw him in a negative light, every time he bit anyone i felt sure he was going to turn into a really aggressive adult, and we would have to get rid.
I went to a different obedience class where the trainer (she is expert in GSD) was really positive about him and could see his good qualities.
He is very intelligent and quite cheeky.
He picks up new tricks (good and bad) REALLY fast.
We set up some 'dog rules' printed on a sheet in the kitchen where everyone could see.
We made sure he waited until offered for his food, play, going out etc.
We didn't let him get too excited, so lots of calm time-out when he needed it.
He used to bite when put back on the lead after his walk, as he didn't want to come home, so we started putting the lead on a bit before home time and playing with him on the lead for a bit, then letting him carry the toy home.
Lots and lots of little things, which i probably can't remember anymore and mostly thinking positively about his good points.
We also changed his food to Iams from Bakers, which lots of people have pointed out has colourings etc in.
We now have a three year old dog who is not aggressive at all, he just loves to play, and i think that's all he ever wanted but as a pup he was like a hyper-active toddler - he didn't know when he was tired, and could never give up on the playing he just wanted more and more, so we had to draw the boundaries, and make sure he got lots and lots of very short active periods, and then calm time in between for rest.
I am sure you will get lots of help from a good behaviourist, as others have advised, but in the meantime maybe looking at your little girl in this light might give you a different perspective.

> Also the unpredictability of the attacks seems very odd..I am assuming from reading the posts there does not seem to be a trigger for the behaviour you can put your finger on?

It seems like movement is a trigger, children are a trigger and being held is (ie collar changing). It doesn't seeem unpredictable to me, it seems like anything that would normally be exiting to a pup (movement and children are great cources of entertainment for most pups) get this pups full attention, along with a possible fear-reaction when pup feel threatened (collar changing).

Imagine if someobody grabbed you by the throat on a few occasions, how do you think you would react whenever they reached out to grab your necklace? I think I would grab thier arm so they couldn't grab my throat, but a dog can't do this - it can only use it's mouth and 'tell' you to get off by growling. And if the person that grabbed your throat was the one that was trying to stop you having fun/working (chasing ankles) do you think you would listen to them?

Well, I can and have expierenced puppy biting mainly from Dobes when I was in Dobes and Newfies now! No I haven't seen the dog in action, but from what the OP describes I would be seriously worried about temperament! To my mind this doesn't seem like 'puppy' like behaviour and I've seen a lot of puppies! Even my mental Sasha and Cleo(the Yorkies) and yes they are mental and very hyper, don't do this sort of thing. If someone has an unrelieble temperament and a growing dog then the situation is heading for disaster! I've never, ever had to crate dogs to control them...although Storm goes into a giant crate at night for safetys sake. I would worry more about the type of damage that can be caused to a child by an inattentive owner...If there is any doubt whatsoever, from a danger point of view, then something needs to be done NOW! Not waiting for another incident to happen.

I know what MM is on about yes, indeed, high work drive etc, BUT this is a young, young pup...just at the very start of the problems! I have had working breeds all my life(though not as many years as MM I grant you!) and I repeat I have never, ever seen a dog this aggressive at this young age. Whatever the reasons for it, something needs to be done to resolve it!

> Whatever the reasons for it, something needs to be done to resolve it!

Toatlly agree with that. I'm just trying to get accross the fact that what one person see's 'aggression' another may see 'unruly bored puppy that has not been shown the ropes', which makes me reluctant to say that this pup is beyond saving and needs to be PTS. We have the OP's written interpretation of the pups behviour to go on, a good behaviourist really needs to see this for thierselfs, first-hand, before they can offer any advise.

totally agree with newfiedreams
a pup from the background you have described
is no way suitable for a family pet
and aggresion of this nature at that age is very worrying
one of the reasons we  have so many BYB and puppy farmers is
because people buy their puppies
and it often ends in heartbreak

> Hi Melody3005
> Have you actually had your pup checked over by the vet for any physical problem

I did wonder about her hearing and eyesight, though if she is showing effective prey drive I expect her sight is fine..