Hi all, even though I have been breeding for sometime I have a question or a place your bets anyway.
I have had my dog castrated but 6 weeks after the operation one of my young bitches came into heat. I noticed she had swollen up so decided to keep her away from all the others as I hadn't planned on breeding her this season (only her second season, she in 17 months).  I was still showing my others so left her and the others with my father for the weekend with strict instructions not to let any of the boys near her.  Came home on the sunday evening to find her away from the intact boys but with the castrated boy and he was definately having a go, to my horror.

Well as you can guess I was mad but whatever has happened is done now.
I thing is I dont know if he has tied or anything so worried he may have not been completely infertile.

This was around 2 weeks ago and her teats have started to swell!!  I have spoken to her breeder and mum has had false pregnancies it the past so she could be having one of them.

What do you all think?  Place your bets now

Emma

I think after just 6 weeks the odds could be quite high.  Why was he castrated in the first place, was there a reason you wanted to avoid breeding from him?  If so I think I would have her off to the vets for an injection straight away.

Was it this dog? 

Correct it was him, hence why he was done as we have a few boys and it seemed pointless to keep him in the breeding program when I am trying to eliminate PRA as much as possible.  The good news is she is PRA clear so the pups would only be carriers, affected to clear is a perfectly acceptable mating in our breed, but not a desirable mating from the line breeding side.
Looks like a trip to the vets will be on the cards, think she is still too much of a pup to have pups at the moment.

I dont castrate a lot, does anyone know how long it is before they normally become infertile? , he is being kept well away from any girls that could come into season just in case.

Emma

Edited to say, just done the math and it was about 8-9 weeks after op, the time is flying just lately

If it's your dog who's PRA-affected I'd certainly get the bitch injected to terminate any possible pregnancy. The last thing you need (especially after "that" programme) is to produce puppies from a genetically-affected animal. It'd be playing right into the hands of those who want to make out how uncaring and unscrupulous breeders are.

No vet will give you an actual time(well they shoiuldn't)it varies from dog to dog & only a sperm count would be the true & safe answer

I would have her to the Vets now! It doesn't matter really whether he or isn't infertile...the main problem is the bitch is far too young to have pups anyway...best of luck!

Been doing a bit of reading on the internet and most say you should be careful up to 12 weeks.
Haven't had to do an abort before, never had an accident like this.  Someone run me through it please.  From what I know about the injection doesnt it need to be given with a few days to be effective?  I think that rules out that option, only other option is for her to be sprayed or have the pups, am I right?

Emma

Edited to say I will book an appointment with the vet first thing tomorrow to discuss options but would like to know my options before I go.

You can use Alizin up to day 45.  I believe it is more effective too than previous medications.

Some dogs will mate and tie with bitches years after they are neutered - the urge isn't always removed, but hopefully the ability is.

I'd start with getting a sperm count on the dog if possible, myself. I know these injections are meant to be much improved these days, but I'd still avoid them if I could.

M.

I can't see how it would now be possible to accertain what his sperm level was a couple of weeks ago particularly as he has had a mating since.

Aah yes, hadn't read properly. My head was thinking this mating had just taken place.

M.

Hi all,
Been to the vets this morning (sod work this is more important) and talked for england about the options.  My vet and another in the same practice (second opinion) have advised against the injection as it is full proof and can cause large single puppy syndrome which would mean if the injection didnt work then she would end up needing a c section.  One of the vets is a breeder himself and has personal experience of this in small dogs, reason why I choose him as a vet in the first place.

But I still have time to decide as the injection works as effectively up to 45 as it does at this stage.  So the next thing is to wait until about day 21 - 25 (next week) and have a blood test to confirm if she is or isn't then decide if to give the injection or not.  So I am not giving an injection to a bitch who doesn't need it.

To add to the nightmare if she does have pups either because I didn't abort or the injection failed they would be born in the week before xmas!!!

I am now praying that when I get the blood test it shows as not pregnant.

Emma

To be honest if you look at the data supplied about ALIZIN I think you would find it a suitable product to use and lessens the risk considerably of retaining a big, big pup. You can google it and find comprehensive data for it. I wonder if your Vet knows about it??

I would go to another Vet to seek an opinion...after all if we want to breed to IMPROVE a breed, why do it if we know that there are defects present?

Another consideration would be the timing of the delivery?? Would you really honestly expect to find decent forever homes right upto Christmas? Never mind the 'getting rid of all the Christmas pups' bought and no longer wanted post Christmas?

PS Sorry, what do you mean by full proof?? Do you mean it 'ISN'T FOOL PROOF' Cos you said 'it is full proof' and I don't understand what you mean! Sorry!

Hi
Yes, I was ment to type ISN'T full proof.

after all if we want to breed to IMPROVE a breed, why do it if we know that there are defects present?
Cord 1 PRA is only a defect if you breed affected animals, the litter would be carriers which isn't an issue as if they were ever breed from again they would just have to be bred to a clear dog/bitch and would never suffer from the condition themselves. Our own breed council has very clear views on the types of breedings that can and can't take place in relation to PRA and this is a recommend breeding(all be it an accident).
The dog was only neutered because the line I wanted to continue with him would have been a carrier to an affected mating which would produce affected pups which I wasn't going to do so he had the snip.

I have looked online about alizin and am still unsure of to what decision I will make if she is confirmed pregnant.  I am going to a different vet for another opinion first and have been discussing the subject with a few other breeders.

Also as with all of my litters I would only house to people I had thoughly checked even if they were going for pets and always have a policy of I would rather keep the entire litter than settle for someone I dont trust or like.  In the case of pet pups I tend to grow them on and neuter before homing as well just in case so this litter wouldn't leave me for many months yet.  But even after just speaking to a couple of good breeder friends the word has already gone round and she isn't even confirmed pregnant and have had a lot of contacts wanting one of the pups because of the lines they come from.  I dont think homing them as pets or show dogs will be an issue.

I am mainly concerned for the safety of the bitch thinking do I want to risk her having to have a c section if the alizin doesnt work and she ends up with a big single pup.  The male culprit is smaller than her so I dont believe she will have a problem passing pups normally.

I really cant decide!

Emma

> and this is a recommend breeding

It may be permitted.  I doubt it's recommended. :-)  The recent DNA advances have given breeders a very real opportunity to rid their breeds of certain conditions.  In the light of recent bad press and public expectations, unless there is an exceptional requirement within a limited gene pool to continue breeding from affected animal I really don't think anyone could consider it desirable if it is at all possible to stop it.  Are these lines available from no other source?

PRA in the mini smooths has only just been confirmed in the last 2 years.  Their was a information release after the first wave of tests and it stated from all the dogs tested only around 30% were clear so it is inpractical and unadvisable to only used clear animals straight away as the gene pool would drop too much.  Plus even from an affected animal it only takes 2 generations to breed clear animals which means it will only take a few years to reduce the affected and carrier animals available for use in breeding programs.  It has been clearly stated by our breed council that everyone must not select sub standard stock just because they are clear as this would mean the standard of dogs would go down drastically.
So it is recommended that in every breeding one animal should be DNA cord1 clear but the other can affected or carrier.

His line is a rare russian champion line, not seen in the UK very often.  So their is other sources but not many.  A lot of people who wanted me to keep him intact for at least one more year but I felt he had sired enough litters to keep his genes going without him. These litters were sired when he was a bit younger before all the PRA testing came in.

I know a lot about the PRA genetics behind breeding as I am always telling others about it.
I must add that health tests for this condition in our breed are not a requirement by the KC and it was only our own breed council asking for it to be tested in our breed (it was already apparent in the mini longs) that it was picked up.

Emma

I thought he was only just over a year old!

>I must add that health tests for this condition in our breed are not a requirement by the KC and it was only our own breed council

This is the case with quite a lot of health screening which is I always advise people to find a puppy through a breed club.

No he is nearly 6 now.  I wouldn't retire a dog from showing at only a year, most that do well as puppies do terrible as an adult and vice versa.

This is the case with quite a lot of health screening which is I always advise people to find a puppy through a breed club.
Dont you think that once the breed clubs have had support for something for a couple of years they should put it in as a requirement?
I wish they would, stop a lot of profit breeders

Emma

> Dont you think that once the breed clubs have had support for something for a couple of years they should put it in as a requirement?

They seem to be taking the view that the Breed Clubs are in the best position to determine which tests and which outcomes best suit at any particular time.  They do, however support and promote the breed clubs as the best way to find a breeder which should help guide purchasers regarding "profit breeders"

My neutered male tied with his sister 4 weeks after he was neutered.  I rang and spoke to my vet and her opinion was that if you look through enough medical literature you will find a case where it has happened but she had personally never seen it.

If it was me I would wait until day 30 have her scanned and abort if necessary but ultimately it is your decision.

My neutered male tied with his sister 4 weeks after he was neutered.  I rang and spoke to my vet and her opinion was that if you look through enough medical literature you will find a case where it has happened but she had personally never seen it.

If it was me I would wait until day 30 have her scanned and abort if necessary but ultimately it is your decision.

It is not helpful to remove animals for the gen pool if they can be safely bred from until such time as carrier and affected animals are an insignificant proportion of the population as has occurred with Irish setters with PRA after some generations.

To prematurely remove dogs from the gene pool that with DNA status known can be safely used would be to risk bringing other unwanted traits to the fore.

Emma, the other post has just reminded me to check yours. Was your bitch's unwanted pregnancy confirmed or were you luckier than the other poster?

M.

Hi, no i am not any luckier.  She is pregnant, from my guess she is between 27-30 days gone.
I have been thinking long and hard,  I have decided to let her have the pups.

In an ideal world she would be a bit older maybe at her third season instead of the second but I have read so much about the complications with aborting in small dogs that it isn't worth the chance.
Before I even confirmed I started getting a list together of people who wanted a pup from the two lines and have a waiting list of 6 people who are all fully aware of the situation and all the health test results, etc.  Some of them have been in the breed for years and have had dogs from me before so they definately know what to expect from this mating conformation and health wise.
They are all of course going to be subjected to questioning.  Also the ones I feel are not good conformation wise will be grown on and neutered before selling.

I know their will be a lot of people who will disagree with my decision but she is a very special bitch to me and would never intentionally do anything to hurt her.

Emma

Oh, I think I'd do the same in your shoes. Be an interesting theme for registered names, and maybe there will be a really special pup in there.

M.

I see what you mean about the names.  I will have to go along the lines of ooops, what are the odds, never turn your back, etc

and maybe there will be a really special pup in there
You never know, but I will definately have a close look for any guy/girl in the litter that shines.

Emma

Good for you Malibu, and good luck with the litter, keep in touch.

Linda