All,

Apologies if this has been posted before but im after some information on the above.

I am looking to buy two cocker puppies and have found two i think would be ideal, however on viewing the puppies pedigree chart I noticed that the great-grandfather was mated with the grandmother. Is this an issue I should be concerned about or just accept it?

Im not sure of the extent of inbreeding in dogs so am unsure how to proceed.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

For a start, unless you're very experienced in having multiple dogs, don't get two puppies at once - it's not nearly as much fun as only having one to concentrate on!

Regarding the breeding - are those particular individuals on the same side of the pedigree as each other? And were they both good, typical, healthy examples of the breed?

We want to get two so they can kep each other company during the day!! We are a young couple with no other commitments so have plenty time on our hands to devote to both dogs, hopefully it will be ok.

They were both on the same side as each other, yes. Im not aware of any health issues with them and the breeder has assured me that the mother of the puppies has had no problems and is the most affectionate dog she has known. Is this sort of breeding commonplace or should I look elsewhere?

We want to get two so they can kep each other company during the day!!

Is that because you both work?  Most responsible breeders wouldn't sell 2 pups together because they know that it's hard work trying to train two dogs at the same time. :(

Yes, we both work. We have set aside a large area on the side of our house to allow them out during the day if they wish so no worries on that front.

All other points aside (I take on board your concerns over training etc but we are committed to having happy, well trained dogs so will ensure, however hard this is, that this happens), should I be looking elsewhere for puppies with no inbreeding in their pedigree or is this level of inbreeding common / acceptable?

Have you seen health certificates for both parents? Cocker spaniels (both working and show types - which are these?) need to be eye-tested every year by a specialist ophthamologist to ensure that they aren't likely to pass on hereditary eye conditions, some of which can cause their offspring to go blind at an young age.

If you do get two puppies, remember that for every 5 minutes they spend together they need to spend 15 minutes apart, and with their owners, if they're not to become too bonded with each other and end up not caring two hoots about you! Do you both work fulltime?

They'll need fulltime attention for several weeks to become housetrained, of course.

> We have set aside a large area on the side of our house to allow them out during the day if they wish

So what happens if they bark all day and annoy the neighbours, or it's raining and they get soaking wet, or they go back inside and trash the house, or they are stolen from the garden whilst you are out all day?

These are working type dogs. I havent asked for certificates but will do so now, thanks for highlighting that.

We both work fulltime yes. Although my girlfriend does spend some time based at home. We have the time and desire outwith work to train and raise these dogs properly and will be seeking advice on this nearer the time (were not due to collect the puppies until just before xmas). My friend has two working gundogs and will be helping us throughout.

If i can get certificates and they dont discolse any health concerns, would you say I am ok to go ahead and get these puppies?

There is good information about buying a cocker spaniel on this link.

Id hope the neighbours will be at work so barking shouldnt affect them. Im able to nip home at lunchtimes so if there are any isses I can deal with these. They will only have access to the utility room during the day so no worries about wrecking the house. Also, im making a house for them outside so if it rains they can go into a nice dry and snug house.

I didnt realise this was a test of my ability to keep dogs, I was only seeking to find out if the puppies I am looking at will be healty.

>So what happens if they bark all day and annoy the neighbours, or it's raining and they get soaking wet, or they go back inside and trash the house, or they are stolen from the garden whilst you are out all day?

I have been trying to help out a friend of my Mum who has found herself in this very position.  She got 2 Lab puppies thinking they would be company for each other while she is at work.  At first, they had a dog flap for access to the garden but, not only did one escape and only narrowly avoided being knocked down before a neighbour caught it, the neighbours complained that they barked a lot (at other dogs or people passing, cats, birds, at the postman, binmen etc etc) so she moved them inside to the utility room which they have now all but destroyed.  Also, at over a year old, one or other (or maybe both) is still not fully clean indoors but she can't work out which one it is as, obviously, she's not there to catch the offender in the act.

>I was only seeking to find out if the puppies I am looking at will be healty.

Without being able to research the health of the dogs in the pedigree, it's impossible to say. This is why you need to see health certificates.

That's an excellent link JG especially explaining the differences between show and working cockers.  I can't imagine any working cocker breeder selling 2 pups to be left together at home all day.

I have no doubt of your good intentions Benjemin but I'm not sure that you understand what 2 working cocker pups are capable of if left alone together all day? :)  Also 8 week old pups need feeding 4-5 times each day, as well as toilet training and regular mental stimulation to stop them getting bored and up to mischief!

edited to say ......
Sorry if you don't want to be aware of potential problems.  I'll say no more.

> We want to get two so they can kep each other company during the day!! We are a young couple with no other commitments so have plenty time on our hands to devote to both dogs, hopefully it will be ok.
>

i cannot beg you enough to reconsider getting two puppies at once. on the brief occasion that i was only partly responsible for looking after two pups at once (additional bitch pup that did not get re-homed for a few weeks extra) it was a nightmare! they play off of each other and make everything far more than twice the (already considerable) work. they shouldn't need company from another pup, they should have a person for the first while.

it might seem logical to get another pup to keep the other company but it is not that simple. i promise that despite you having no other commitments it is still a job looking after 1 adult dog let alone 2 pups (my partner and i are again a young couple with no other commitments but work where we do opposing shifts so someones in most of the time).

your pup (or pups) will need company full time for a good long while after they first arrive as well- effectively they are a toddler and need a parent around to look after them and teach them. they will need approx 4 meals a day at regular intervals and someone on hand to toilet train from the get go.

definately check out health testing- if the tests have been done thats the important bit for their health. if the breeder does not do this i'd walk away. i'd also question a breeder that is willing to provide 2 littermates to an inexperienced owner- it does not smack of experience or knowledge.

there are loads of cocker people on the boards who will be able to advice you on health issues, breeders and training.

hth :)

Jeangenie, thanks for the info.

Shaynlola, there is nothing in our utility room except a washing machine so not too worried. As for escaping, they will be walled in at 3 sides and the other will be fenced so it shouldnt be an issue. This might sound like a prison, but it is a large area up the side of our house which is well away from the road / pavement / postie!! Obviously we'll take every precaution and do all we can to ensure they are safe and happy.

>I didnt realise this was a test of my ability to keep dogs, I was only seeking to find out if the puppies I am looking at will be healty.

No-one can guarantee that any puppy will be 100% healthy.  However, the type of breeder that sells 2 puppies to the same home, let alone one where there will be no-one home for most of the day,  is unlikely to be one that has health first and foremost in their mind when breeding unfortunately.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge of Cockers specifically will be able to advise of which health certificates you should ask to see.

*edited to add*

>Shaynlola, there is nothing in our utility room except a washing machine so not too worried

Never underestimate a dogs ability to demolish doorframes, rip up flooring and chew through plaster!!  Not to mention the rubber seal of the washing machine door...an ex-neighbour had to replace hers every time she forgot to shut the washing machine door tight because her Dobermann had a penchant for rubber apparently

> didnt realise this was a test of my ability to keep dogs, I was only seeking to find out if the puppies I am looking at will be healty.

no one is testing your ability to keep dogs, but it appears from your posts that you do not know vital information. everyone on this forum adores dogs and wants to see both your dog and yourself get the most from the relationship. As such surely its best to let you know of what might happen in this situation?

> However, the type of breeder that sells 2 puppies to the same home, let alone one where there will be no-one home for most of the day,  is unlikely to be one that has health first and foremost in their mind when breeding unfortunately.
>

quite

We have given it careful consideration and decided that we are willing and (foolishly or not) capable of looking after two dogs. Obviously it wont be easy but thats half the fun. With regards to being around constantly, how would this make it possible for anyone with a fulltime job to have a dog? Im not having a go, just curious as to how other people (who dont work shifts) manage to keep puppies / dogs.

We are due to collect them before chrismtas so will have at least 2 weeks with them fulltime which should help in getting them comfortable with their suroundings.

Thanks for all your comments, i only registered today and didnt know waht to expect. I welcome all comments and will consider them all.

Cocker spaniels are one of the least appropriate dogs to buy if you are at work all day.  Two do not provide a substitute to each other for the human company that is so important to their nature and the likelihood of them just combining their efforts of distruction and noice in their frustration is very high, in my opinion.  Add to this the fact that the working strain will have an even higher drive for activity that will not lie peacefully dormant whilst you are busy at work and I think you are looking at a lot of heartbreak which in all probability could well lead to the heartbreak of reconsidering their future at some point.
I would therefore consider the experience and quality of a breeder that is willing to place them with you on these terms far more than the choices of mating taken by the breeder that owned their grandparents.

Here is an interesting article about raising two puppies

how other people (who dont work shifts) manage to keep puppies / dogs.

I wouldn't sell one puppy, let alone two, to a young couple who both worked full time.  Sorry if that sounds hard, but I put a lot of time, money and emotion into producing my pups and I don't think that only evenings and weekends of care and training are sufficient to produce a well balance adult dog.  Just my opinion of course, but similar to many responsible and experienced breeders.

Oh, another question (sorry!) - what gender puppy/s are you planning to get?

> With regards to being around constantly, how would this make it possible for anyone with a fulltime job to have a dog?

For most people it doesn't I'm afraid.  Most people will wait until they are in a position to at least work part time or work from home.  It's hard when you love dogs and yearn to own one but wishing does not make it any easier to manage and many dogs end up in rescue because it fails which is heartbreaking for all concerned.

>With regards to being around constantly, how would this make it possible for anyone with a fulltime job to have a dog?

Some people work from home, some work alternate shifts, some can take their dog to work with them, some take the pup to spend the day with a trusted friend or family member ... there are options.

We are / were planning to get two sisters.

Reading these posts and other websites, I may reconsider and only get one. I thought i would be helping a lone puppy by giving it some company, perhaps not.

>just curious as to how other people (who dont work shifts) manage to keep puppies / dogs.

In our case, we started by getting an older dog that was past the puppy stage.  Then, when we added a puppy, we made sure that someone was at home full time for the first few weeks and then arranged our work hours so that we could gradually increase the time that the puppy was left for.  Of course, she had our sensible older dog for company and reassurance as he already knew the routine.  The dogs are walked for 45mins - 1hr first thing in the morning and again in the evening.  I have large/giant breeds so this much exercise is appropriate for them, an active adult spaniel may well require more (puppies generally require less formal exercise whilst growing). We also employ a dog walker to come in during the day.

I thought i would be helping a lone puppy by giving it some company, perhaps not.

That's understandable for a first time pet owner but the breeder should know better!  And if that's the knowledge and care that they are giving you before they have taken your money, then I wouldn't hold your breathe for the support that they will give you once you have your pups and you've got big behavioural problems. :(

I would suggest considering finding another breeder and finding a dog walker who can come in for at least 2 seperate hours each day until the pup is around 12 months old.

If a couple came to me for a puppy and explained that they would spend at least an hour exercising and feeding the pup in the morning before they went to work, had a walker coming in morning and afternoon, not to walk but to take in the garden for a comfort break and play/training, with you coming home lunchtimes, then I might consider letting a puppy go to a working home.

There are ways of making it work, but shutting 2 pups together in a utility room isn't one of them. :)

EDITED TO SAY
Golly I do feel for you Benjemin.  I understand that you didn't expect this response to your simple question but it had to be said! :)

I and many other experienced breeders would not choose to keep two pups at a time (I recently had a 13 week pup come back after only two weeks away).

I opted to take up a very good friend's (with two adults of the breed) offer of fostering him until he went to a new home as back with his sister it was bedlam, any hope for trying to train them was being sabotaged and they would just have become really wild left able to be in each others company all the time.

Both are progressing nicely with adults to keep them in lien and teach them some self control and us humans doing the rest.

Welcome to the forum. Don't be put off by the questions about buying two puppies. It's because the chances of successfully rearing two puppies to be independent of each other, more bonded to you than their littermate and without problems as adults are low. Imagine a room full of toddlers - they just wind each other up. You can't compete with the non-stop fun and excitement of a littermate.

If you really want two dogs I have a suggestion for you to consider. Contact breed rescue and get a nice adult dog that is good with other dogs and is OK to be on their own; something 2-3 years or more. After they settle you could get a puppy if you still want to go down that road. That way you wouldn't run into the problems raising two littermates can bring.

I work full time and have two dogs. I do it by working from home. When I have to go into the office for a day I have back-up daycare for my dogs with two friends and a day care centre. Or my husband stays home that day. I first started by going to the office in the morning then working from home the rest of the day. That's when I got my first puppy. He was fine on his own for the short time I was out. When he was 2 I felt we could get another puppy. He was always a very settled easy going and well behaved dog. My second will be 2 in January and I wouldn't consider another puppy yet. She's still a little immature - for her I think I'd wait another year. They are good company for each other but it's us they really want to be with. My point is dogs can be fine on their own for a short time. You would be better off getting one puppy now, raising it to be the dog you want, then get another in a year or two depending on how your other dog is doing.

No one is criticising you so please don't take it that way. It's just we all know how much work a puppy is. Even after you after raising one, your second comes along a couple years later and you end up saying "I don't remember them being this hard.." LOL

Ive found a dogwalker locally and will be home at lunchtime to walk them myself. Obviously i'll walk the dog/s before and after work so im not too concerned about exercise / stimulation.

Ive taken on board all comments about raising two pups together and think I will settle for one.

Back to the original question though! If health documents are ok and I can view the parents before taking the puppy, would anyone advise against taking a dog with some form of inbreeding?

>I thought i would be helping a lone puppy by giving it some company, perhaps not.

And that's an understandable thought, but unfortunately dogs don't work like that. They'll become most attached to the individual they spend most time with - and when that's another of their own species, with the same body language etc as themselves, then another species (human) comes a long way down the list of preference.

From my last litter I meant to keep a single puppy, but ended up keeping two due to lack of demand for male puppies. Now, I've had dogs all my life, but these two together has been so much harder than any of the single puppies I've had previously. I rally wouldn't have believed beforehand how much trouble it's been - and that was when I was at home full time! It took about 5 years to get them to the stage of good behaviour that I'd have normally have expected at about 6 or 7 months - and even now, when I recall them they'll look at each other first to see what the brother's going to do! If one decides to obey, then the other will come too. If one decides not to, then they just b*gger off together. We try to take them out separately a few times a week, and they're lovely then! But when we get back they tend to have a scrap (don't usually draw blood though) through jealousy that one's been out and not the other ... it gets very tense.

We were lucky in that we didn't have any of the bitter status rivalry that can occur when they reach adolescence and try to determine their position relative to each other. Bitches tend to be even worse than dogs for this, and the fights can be very serious. I know that I'll never, ever raise two puppies again!

> Reading these posts and other websites, I may reconsider and only get one. I thought i would be helping a lone puppy by giving it some company, perhaps not.

It's good that you've taken onboard the advice against getting 2 pups :)
Getting littermates seems like a great idea........untill you've got them!
Years ago we had littermates, a brother & sister, OMG they were a nightmare!!!!! We thought they'd be good company for each other, they are but they also egg each other on. They did turn out to be lovely dogs in the end (apart form the males dog-agression), but they gave us a good few years of hell untill they were adults :( Never, ever again would I have littermates - or any 2 pups at the same time. Another point that the link didn't mention is the absoulte heartbreak the remaining dog goes through when the first one dies. Our male died first at 12 years old, his sister lived untill nearly 16 years, every day after his death untill the day she died, she whould stand in the garden sniffing the air and looking for her brother, she spent her entire life with him and as such never learnt how to be on her own, it was awful :(
I've just lost my old dog and would love another puppy, but my current dog is only 15 months old, we will get another pup but not untill our current dog is an adult and I am happy with his level of training (at least 3 yrs old, due to his breed he'll take a while to mature).
Honestly, speaking from experience it really is not a good idea to have 2 pups together, even if you are very confident in your training abilities.

>If health documents are ok and I can view the parents before taking the puppy, would anyone advise against taking a dog with some form of inbreeding?

I'd be concerned if the breeder had both parents - it's more usual to scour the country for the most suitable mate for a bitch; using the nearest one suggests cost-cutting and lack of research. But as regards that distant inbreeding, no, that wouldn't bother me - I personally would rather that than two entirely unrelated parents. I like to see a couple of mutual top-quality grandparents or great-grandparents in a pedigree.

I would prefer to see a line bred pedigree and would expect to see only the Dam, unless the breeder could offer you a VERY good reason why they had used their own dog, I would prefer they had travelled to the most suitable dog rather than the most convenient one.

But at the very least, you need to see clear eye certificates for the parents.

> With regards to being around constantly, how would this make it possible for anyone with a fulltime job to have a dog?

as i said my partner and i work differing shifts so that Tio is not alone for more than a few hours. we have gradually built it up so that if needs be he can be alone for extended periods, but this is unusual. he is also an adult.

when we decide to get a puppy we will be arranging to take all our annual leave to cover at least a month and then be getting a dog sitter in or will do so when one of us is starting a post grad so that they are home 90% of the time.

it is do able but as i say its hard hard work. 1 puppy is a nightmare- there was a thread a few weeks ago about how most of us hate the puppy stage and are dying for an adult.

capable of looking after 2 dogs is fine, 2 dogs are easier than 1 as they do keep each other company. however 2 puppies is totally different. may i make a suggestion to you? please do consider it. why not consider instead of getting these puppies, which you seem concerned about the breeding of anyway, getting an adult rescue dog now and in a little while get a puppy. when the adult is settled in and you are sure there are not problems then perhaps a pup would suit better? you would not have the nightmare of two pups but would have the company for both adult and pup.

we have always had 2 or more dogs (except now that i am living with my partner and we have the one) and i must say training a pup is far easier with a trained adult around.

Benjamin i would really like to hear more info about this breeder.

Such as will the pups be KC registered
Does she have documented proof of health test of the parents
Do they come with a health guarantee
Does she provide back up and support for the life of the dog
Does she demand first rights to return if you decide not to keep the pup somewhere down the road

After hearing the answers to these questions,the posters here will be in a  much better position to help and advise you.

As for the inbreeding,as far as I'm aware this is common thing in pedigree's.

My dogs share some parentage and they're both healthy fit dogs. I would expect to see some linebreeding. I'm not a breeder but as a puppy buyer I would ask why they bred the litter, why they chose that dog to mate with the bitch and would expect some answers on what each of their faults were and how the two complemented each other. I would like to see a few generations around - some oldies in the house to show they're dogs are first and formost pets they keep for life. I would insist on meeting mom but not necessarily dad. I was asked to come meet the breeders dogs before the litter was planned so I could judge their temperament and get judged myself before I went on the waiting list.

The pups will be KC registered but im not aware of any supporting documentation. There was talk of a release document but this was put across as an 'admin' type document as the puppies have been docked.

Im not aware of them offering any back-up or support and there has been no mention of first rights.

This breader is based in Southern England and as im based in Central Scotland, may not be suitable anymore. The reason we chose them was because they had both a solid black and solid gold female. This combination seems hard to find in Scotland.

If anyone knows of a breeder based in Scotland with a litter which includes a golden bitch, id be extremely interested in speaking to them.

There is good advise about appraising your breeder on the KC website and I would pay particular note of their advise to seek one via Breed Club membership.

>Do they come with a health guarantee

No living thing can ever be 'guaranteed' to be healthy.

Your best bet would be to contact either (or both) of:
COCKER SPANIEL CLUB OF SCOTLAND. Sec: Mrs G Ure. Tel No: 01324 552897 or

the Solid colours cocker association. These are, however, for show-type cockers and not working-type, but they might be able to help.

>No living thing can ever be 'guaranteed' to be healthy.

I'm sure I've heard of breeders giving guarantee's of no hereditary defects,or something to that effect.

Those breeders are often the ones to be wary of -similar to the ones that says "Oh such and such a problem does not exist in my lines so I don't need to health test". It's a sale ploy.

>> I'm sure I've heard of breeders giving guarantee's of no hereditary defects,or something to that effect.

you can guarentee that they come from health tested stock but you cannot make guarantees like that. for one thing there is often no way to know- i.e. no health test available for the parent as yet.

in biology at school our teacher said to us that none of this is definate as with any living creature nothing is definate ever, there is always the potential for some strange development that goes against the anticipated.

a good breeder will do everything they possibly can to help prevent any health defects (for example by health testing breeding animals)

Ive been in contact with the breeder and they have confirmed that the father was chosen for what he would add to her puppies, not just for convenience. Ive requested health documentation and also asked for only one puppy.

Thanks to all for the help. I'll keep you posted!!

can i say how lovely it is that you have come and listened to the comments people have given. i know it can bee a bit overwhelming the reaction that comes out of us all :)so i am very glad that you have taken the advice and i promise you've made the right decision!

keep us all informed about the progress with getting/training your wee girl :) and make sure you put up an avatar once you pick her up so we can all have a look!

have you any names yet? :)

> Ive been in contact with the breeder and they have confirmed that the father was chosen for what he would add to her puppies, not just for convenience.

How did you word the question, I wonder! :-)  Did they elaborate on what qualities the father was sought for? 
Have they told you what health documentation they are going to furnish you with and what the scores/results were?

I didnt ask about the father, the breeder was forthcoming in saying that he was sought out after thorough consideration, before i questioned them. Also went on to say that the mother was the most affectionate dog they had known. A sales pitch perhaps, but documents and further questions will soon put paid to that if so.

They havent disclosed what (if anything) will be provided but I have only just emailed them.

For the two puppies we had chosen Honey and Willow so I guess now we are only after a golden one, it will be Honey!!

best of luck with it. isabel is a cocker person (as you should see from her avatar) so if your unsure about what to look for i'm sure she could tell you :)