why would you want to remove a cats dew claws ?
in the USA it is legal and quite an acceptable practice to declaw cats, as many cats atre kept as indoor cats and without claws they can't scratch your carpets and furnishings or climb up into places you don't want them. Well I think that's why.

> I have yet to see an animal that does not look good in what nature gave it

I agree with Tenaj

Very little to do with nature I'm afraid. If that were really the case then we would all be surrounded with one type of dog..... 'the DOG'.  About Shiba in size with a Beagle type coat, a Heeler type face and ........yes a tail but we'd all have roughly the same animal in our home with no room for personal choice.

> Where it was more suitable not to have a tail breeder sin the past tried to breed from naturally bobbed dogs to create more pups with no tails and hopefully in the end have tailless breeds  - but breeding like this creates genetic problems so docking is actually a better option.
>

So if you can't 'fix' it then 'force' it.
I'm sorry but you have not convinced me and I remain anti-docking

I'm sorry but you have not convinced me and I remain anti-docking

I have absolutely no intention at all to change your opinion. You have every right to be anti tail docking.

Just as those who prefer to dock should have every right to continue to do so.

Discusions are not designed to force ideas or to change opinions but to develop understandings into why different people hold different opinions and to develop understanding and tollerance and therefore a greater freedom of choice.  No one would intend you to change youir opinion but simply to share ideas so we can all understand and appreciate these perspectives from different points of view.

I'm fully aware that selective breeding has changed the look of dogs over the years (not always at the benefit of the dog), but it hasn't yet managed to breed out the tail, so as I have said on a previous post, if you can't 'fix' it them 'force' it. :(

but it hasn't yet managed to breed out the tail,

You can breed out the tail in a proprtion of pups. Not all dogs have tails. In fact the anti docking law will probably increase the demand for breeding from bob tailed dogs to preserve this characteristic.

As I stated previously I am on the fence regarding this issue but prefer docking to messing around with genetics.  Ideally to dock or not to dock imo this should have been left to breeders to decide because after all they are the experts. I trust them to make the right descisions. Which is why my dogs are docked. I fully trust the breeders of my pups and nothing they would have done to their babies will have involved the slightest issue of cruelty. :)

OES were historically docked because of flystrike - sheep are docked for this same reason (especially if they are the breeding ewes).  They were not part of the tax rebate for working dogs (which were identified by docked tails).  If air can get under the tail then flystrike is less likely to occur as the flies prefer to lay their eggs in warm "nutritious" places such as wounds and under tails (no tail = air circulation) which on heavy coated breeds get poopy and warm.  If poo is particularly compacted in the fur it can also tear the skin, leaving the animal even more open to flystrike. I see no reason why an OES or other heavy coated yet traditionally docked dogs can keep it's tail, but it has to be kept in immaculate condition. I'm sorry but there are too many tatty looking smelly hairy dogs in this world with owners that aren't able to cope with their grooming requirements.  If docking their tail can save them some unpleasantness, much like neutering and removing the dewclaws do, then I'm all for it.  Shaving the dogs right down help the dogs and the owners but to many is very expensive.

I appreciate that this is an old fashioned ailment, but it does still happen.  So I ammend my statement, they don't NEED to be docked, they just NEED to be looked after a heck of a lot better.

Ok so in an attempt to understand your point of view, please try and convince me how 'fly strike' on an OES should be a problem when it is no doubt owned by a caring owner that will regularly wash and groom.
How is 'being shut in a door' a good enough reason?
Why are Spaniels more at risk than Labradors or Retrievers?

I keep getting told I will get use to the changes. That may well be but it doesnt mean I am going to like them.

When I took my last litter to be done by a vet. They screamed more when he tried to open there mouths to check them than they did having there tails done.

>There are several undocked poodles I have heard of that appear to have "dead tails", the bit that is normally docked off hangs limp and lifeless.  Anyone else seen such a thing as this? 

It could well be that they're suffering from 'limber tail' (aka 'cold water tail' or 'dead tail') that many gundogs (and poodles were originally gundogs) can get. They recover in a few days. :)

>why would you want to remove a cats dew claws ?

in the USA it is legal and quite an acceptable practice to declaw cats, as many cats atre kept as indoor cats and without claws they can't scratch your carpets and furnishings or climb up into places you don't want them. Well I think that's why.

thanks, how sad :( my leather sofa wouldnt be the same without claw marks in it !!!

>>why would you want to remove a cats dew claws ?
>in the USA it is legal and quite an acceptable practice to declaw cats, as many cats atre kept as indoor cats and without claws they can't scratch your carpets and furnishings or climb up into places you don't want them. Well I think that's why.

You're right - it's not just the dewclaws that are removed, it's all the claws, so that they can't damage the owner's furnishings.

> That's what we do in the Electronics Industry

It's a little harder in flesh and blood.  Designing out a tail involves designing a change to the spine and that can bring new problems.  In fact I think in engineering design can be a bit like that sometimes :-)

>Just because we are not used to seeing certain breeds with tails does not mean that it is right to remove them.

I agree.  That would be a very poor reason.

With the gundog breeds its down to the type of work they are bred to do Spaniels have very different jobs to Labradors and Retrievers and work in heavy cover where the tail action means they are more prone to damage.

> It's a little harder in flesh and blood. Designing out a tail involves designing a change to the spine and that can bring new problems.

I was actually being sarcastic :)

my breed (irish setters) dont need to be docked as they work out on open land but they should be docked to be kept as pets - one of my boys used to constantly smash his tail and spray blood up the walls, we have to make him stand still now or take him outside when we get home to stop further damage :(

I was alway anti-docking until I joined this site and found it didnt hurt the pups or affect their well being.

> its down to the type of work they are bred to do Spaniels have very different jobs to Labradors and Retrievers and work in heavy cover where the tail action means they are more prone to damage.

Very different in structure too, both in shape and length.

> I was actually being sarcastic :-)

Sorry, it flew over my head :-)

thanks, how sad  my leather sofa wouldnt be the same without claw marks in it !!!

yep you'd think if you didn't think the kitty characteristics it'd be a lot kinder and easier just not to have a cat!

Mind you someone over the pond in justification for tail docking said well it's no worse then having our baby boys circumcised and we all do that! lol. 

lol.  Talk about having different cultures. lol.

> I was alway anti-docking until I joined this site and found it didnt hurt the pups or affect their well being.

I'm not anti-docking because of the pain aspect, I believe that if anybody can dock quickly and painlessly it would be a breeder of many years experience, and I'm not anti-docking because it will affect the animals well-being, they learn to adjust and in time would not even know it's missing.

I'm anti-docking because I object to man making such dramatic changes to animals to suit his needs (using needs/welfare of the dog as reasoning) when he does not possess the knowledge to breed it out with out creating horrendous problems.

Well I prefer my breed without tails.  Always said that I would never have one with a tail but unfortunately my girl only had two pups so ended up with a tailed girly.  I don't think I'll ever get used to it, she doesn't look the same as my others, it's very long with whispy further on it.

Fingers crossed that when I mate her mum again I'll be going to a short tailed male and hoping that I'll get a nice girl with a natural short tail. 

Don't understand Poodles and dewclaws?  We leave them on in our breed and they are not groomed at all, except for with the fingers and clipped off around once a year (coat that is).  Never had any problems with their claws at all.  They actually use them significantly and as they work similiar to what Poodles used to I'm surprised that Poodles still have them cut off.  My pups cried a lot more when the dewclaws were taken off than they ever did with their tails being docked.

Quick question, if docking of tail has been banned in the uk, when was this law introduced?

in the USA it is legal and quite an acceptable practice to declaw cats, as many cats atre kept as indoor cats and without claws they can't scratch your carpets and furnishings or climb up into places you don't want them. Well I think that's why.

Yes, and what a disgusting practice that is! I only recently found out that declawing a cat removes the first part of it's limb, so it is not simply like pulling our fingernails off, but the whole first section of our fingers.

If someone doesn't want their cat to damage their furnishings, they either shouldn't buy a cat or shoudl train it not to do so. I have an indoor cat and she has plenty of scratching posts around the house and doesn't touch our furniture.

>Quick question, if docking of tail has been banned in the uk, when was this law introduced?

28 March 2007 in Wales, 6 April 2007 in England, 30 April 2007 in Scotland.

> if docking of tail has been banned in the uk

It is not a total ban, working dogs can still be docked.

>working dogs can still be docked.

Not in Scotland. There it is a total ban.

In England and Wales certain gundog and terrier breeds can still be docked if the breeder can demonstrate that they're likely to be used for working.

So there is not a total ban in England then? and who does the breeder have to demonstrate to so they can go ahead and have the dogs tails docked?

>who does the breeder have to demonstrate to so they can go ahead and have the dogs tails docked?

The vet. The breeder has to produce a valid shotgun licence, or an official letter from a gamekeeper, shoot organiser etc. The vet can still refuse to dock them though.

Full information here

The vet has to be convinced that the dogs will be destined to work, I've tattooed a litter of docked Weimaraners bred by a breeder who works his dogs on local shoots. Being a HPR they are multi tasking & do suffer tail damage if they work undocked

thats so reasuring, thankyou for your reply's. its good to know that, im not a supporter of docking tails, as ive always thought of it as being cruel and unnessary, but then we are all entitled to our opinions and we must all respect that,

I'm torn - I'm not comfortable with cutting bits off dogs, but otoh I do think cockers etc look nice with their wiggle bums, my Yankee wags his whole body! There was a lot of talk about increased tail injuries particularly in the thin skinned breeds eg dobes, has anyone found this to be the case?

i dont have a problem with it

my puppy is from a genetically modified line,the genetic engineer is also a boxer breeder  as was his mother(a breeder)when he first started everyone was against it saying that it was un-natural but now the docking is illegal  without licence,bobtails will still look like they should. I know a breeder whose dogs have long tails and is a judge,she has shown them at crufts,got placed and his tail is the longest i have seen, it very nearly forms a full circle and most definately suits his tail.For or gainst tail docking everyone will have a say on what is right for them or not,like false teeth, wigs,tattoo,s. piercings. each to their own

I have to say I prefer the look of docked dogs, I just can't get used to Boxers, Rotties, Dobes etc with tails. I dont own docked breeds but have always been around Cocker Spaniels and one of the things I loved about them were their wiggle bums and little tails.

> OES were historically docked because of flystrike - sheep are docked for this same reason (especially if they are the breeding ewes).  They were not part of the tax rebate for working dogs (which were identified by docked tails).  If air can get under the tail then flystrike is less likely to occur as the flies prefer to lay their eggs in warm "nutritious" places such as wounds and under tails (no tail = air circulation) which on heavy coated breeds get poopy and warm. 

Thanks for explaining that :)

> Mind you someone over the pond in justification for tail docking said well it's no worse then having our baby boys circumcised and we all do that! lol. 
>
>

How about chopping of babies thumbs to stop them sucking them. That would then save us all those awful orthodontic bills that our NHS will not pay for !

Bit late on reading this post like a good debate so putting in my 10p worth Plus some questions to knowledgeable peeps out there.

Firstly I used to think that all dogs should happily be as nature intended all tails a wagging- but now that it is banned I believe it is wrong way to go. Having seen boxers with tails and my friends without a tail- the without look far better [IMO]. I think it need only  to be the 3rd notch as my sister  weinermarner had- not completely off as the OES when it can cause damage cutting too far up.  

The question I would like to ask is if they normally docked springer spaniels & weinermarner tails then why not labradors there all gun dogs? 

Is it also true that the rotties, dobe's and boxer's being a German breed and used originally for police & army work is why it is more popular with those breeds but then why not the GSD ? I have seen forces Malinois in Europe with no tails also?- is it because an attack dog could be grabbed by its tail?    

Its been explained further up the thread   that the docking is dependant on the type of work, the cover the dog works in, the dogs tail action and the structure of the dog and its tail with gundogs.
German Shepherds were not originally bred for police and Army work they are a herding dog and thats why they are not docked where as Rotties and dobes were developed as guard dogs.

i have rotties so traditionally docked.

my 9yr old is docked and my new pup has full tail i cant say it bothers me either way i am not for or against, but could you tell me if the breeder needs to be able to proove that the dog will be working the land then how has a breeder of rotties been able to have them docked leagaly and then sold them to a pet shop.

i cant see how you could proove that a rottie needs its tail dock, unlike working spainiels and the like?

>could you tell me if the breeder needs to be able to proove that the dog will be working the land

They can't. Rottweilers aren't on the list of exempted breeds (given in a link further up the thread) which are only certain gundog and terrier breeds. Rottwielers cannot be docked legally in England, Scotland or Wales.

> how has a breeder of rotties been able to have them docked leagaly and then sold them to a pet shop.
>

If they are being sold in a pet shop I wonder if they are puppy farm stock shipped in from Ireland where docking is still legal.  This law has probably done much to improve demand for puppies from dubious sources :-(

How about chopping of babies thumbs to stop them sucking them. That would then save us all those awful orthodontic bills that our NHS will not pay for !
Hell! I'm glad no one suggested that to my mum when I was little. She tried everything else! lol.

> i have rotties so traditionally docked.

We do too.

> how has a breeder of rotties been able to have them docked leagaly and then sold them to a pet shop.

I have heard some people take them over to Ireland (which is why in my opening post I mentioned Ireland) allegedly, and I have seen ads saying legally docked I don't no how and they don't go into details either.

I also remember seeing a piece somewhere on the net about a woman who took her bitch over to Ireland to have the pups and get them docked,(not to sure which breed though anyone else see/know about this?) on her return she was fined, (at least that was the last I heard) but I do no that regardless of the ban there are a number of people who are still docking Rotti's tails in England and no doubt other breeds. I have personally seen plenty of Rotti's around where i live and in rescue centres, my nephew's friend of a friend (sorry that sounds so dodgy) has a planned litter of Rotti's who if you wish will/can have there tails docked by a vet.

You are probably right as they can still legally dock in Ireland so pups could have been shipped across.

I own a mixture of breeds but the only previously docked one's I have and do own are Rottweilers.  My male Rottie is 2 so is docked but our bitch pup is 12 mths and has a lovely tail.  I think it looks great and we get a much nicer response from the general public when they see the girl with her tail, although you sometimes get comments like 'oh she must have a bit of Rottie in her' lol!  Alot of people still don't realise docking has been banned.

> has a planned litter of Rotti's who if you wish will/can have there tails docked by a vet.

Personally, I would doubt it would be a vet doing it.

Whistlers is white at the end and like its "feathers" are about 5" long, in damp weather it stays wrapped up but in the sunshine streams like a banner. I had a guy the other day say he had seen my dog before with another one, he had meet my OH walking both a week or so before. Whis is mainly black so his tail looks as if it should be on a white dog, but we were remarking yesterday that he cant run unless his tail waggs!!  I cant see the attraction of prefering a mutilated animal to one as nature intended. Its a personal thing but why mutilate and animal unless the mutilation is beneficial - ie working cockers can still be cropped - thats beneficial to the animal. Human preference should not be an issue. (honest Im ducking now)

>ie working cockers can still be cropped

No, they can be docked, not cropped. ;) (Cropping refers to ears, not tails.)

this shop was reported for haveing docked rotties for sale and now a month on has more docked rotts how can we stop this kind of thing happening because a law was brought in and it is still happening i think it is descusting can we now report them again for buying puppie farm pups or is it leagal to buy from such places?

> can we now report them again for buying puppie farm pups or is it leagal to buy from such places?

Unfortunately it is.

Unfortunately puppy farming, dealing etc though to us who love dogs it is morally unacceptable is perfectly legal, as long as the proper licenses are held.