Having just seen a post about "PICS OF DOGS WITH TAILS", I thought id ask where do you stand on the tail docking?
I'm guessing it has in the past been a topic posted but as im still quite new to CD (not quite a month yet, but seems like ages as its such a god send!) I would of missed it! One of our rotti's had a tail and that was way before the ban was in force he was born in 1994, we did get lots of comments about him and people thought he wasn't a rotti, I guess as it was so uncommon then, saying that we still see many dog's with their tails still docked, all from Ireland amazingly.
I may open up a can of worms and could well face the wrath of god asking about this subject and even by saying, I personally prefer certain breeds without tails, thats probably because of what were used to and I guess if we had never seen a dog without its tail docked it would be the norm, and yes I no it is the norm that they do all have tails before hand, what I mean is we'd never know any difference.
What are your view's?

Diane

I'm not a breeder, just a humble pet owner.  I personally think that mutilating any animal to 'improve' it's appearance is not on.  The docking ban was long overdue.  In the USA you can still clip dogs' ears (to keep them looking alert) but that has been outlawed here too. 

As an owner of 2 traditionally docked dogs (before ban).. I like them that way..and if I could legally buy another I would.

but as my breed cant be docked legally, I guess like many otheres will eventually get used to them.

i like nothing more than seeing a nice waggy tail :)

To be honest i prefer my Cockers without tails, i have two young adult males, one i got in april last year aged 23 months (i was actually looking for a pup-but with freedom of choice being taken away-i went for a young adult that was already docked) and my other boy in may this year aged 15 months (again looking for a black/tan pup but came away with a black/tan junior instead!) now an aquaintance has bought a Cocker last year (after Christmas) and i groom him for her, and that tail has nearly been trapped in car doors/house doors/gates/crate doors more times than i care to mention! not forgetting the amount of times i have stood on the tail AND hair accidently too! i have also caught his tail under the door twice-don't ask me how...i don't know! (probably doesn't help that i can be clumsy though!) Also the amount of time i have spent getting off dried on poo from the underside feathers....bleargh!
     But the best thing about my docked boys is that unmistakable 'Cocker bustle' there is nothing nicer than seeing them quarter the ground with their noses down and tails going 'ten to the dozen' their whole back end wiggles in sheer delight! Unfortunately their undocked counterpart just doesn't have the same 'wiggle factor' and actually seems quite boring in comparison, his tail just can't get up to the same speed and he certainly doesn't bustle-yes i still want a baby Cocker puppy but not yet i still have to steel myself to the fact that i have to have one with a tail (unless i get a worker-but you can't show a worker!) but until that day arrives, i will continue to enjoy my DOCKED boys.

It is an interesting subject.  I am just going to focus on tails though, as not to start a ruffus. 

My breed is docked.  I like them that way.  If Min Pins werent docked, I am afraid more min pin owners would face the question "is that a Chihuahua?".  I hate it when people ask that!  Almost as bad as "Is that a Miniature Doberman?"  But thats another topic. 

Here, in Canada, New Brunswick Veterinary Association has decided to outlaw the removal of tails, dewclaws and ear cropping.  So it doesnt seem like it will be very long before even here, we will have "natural" breeds as well.  Even PEI is talking about getting on the wagon and following suit. 

I am with Crazy cocker on this one. I loved the way my docked dog wags her butt ;o))

I wonder if the people who like wagging tails and are anti mutalation have a docked breed or not? I never saw it as mutalation and a docked breed has a fantastic wag ;o))

i like nothing more than seeing a nice waggy tail 

Me too, and mine do it extremely well!!

I see my first Jack Russell with a tail on the weekend and it was just gorgeous and the tail was gorgeous too!!
Then I see my first Rottie with a tail only this morning and again it looked beautiful, like it should be after all it was born with it and has no need to be docked as it aint a working breed!

I say dock if a working litter with proof and if not then no dock!! :)

i have boxers , two of which dont have tails and they do a great lambada with their buts and have a boxer puppy with a tail and she does,nt know how to wag it(i think she just wiggles it and hopes for the best)As she is a bobtail kind i am hoping to breed her when she is older and have a some little bobtail puppies running around.i think the look much better without a tail .

> i think the look much better without a tail .

A natural non tail IE Bobtail :)

I dont see why Boxers need their tails cut off just to look good for us (Not directed at you lol ;) )same with Rotties, their not working breeds so why bother? For vanity?
Thats like us cutting off our childs limbs if we dont like what they look like! Extreme comparison but then again we are chopping dogs tails and ears off needlessly (Apart from working breeds)  arent we ?!

>Extreme comparison

I'll say!  At the age it is done, when the spinal nerve has not begun to complete its developement away from the brain into the extremity of the tail it is more closely akin to nail clipping that amputation of a limb.

> Thats like us cutting off our childs limbs if we dont like what they look like!

But Rach you've just said it's ok to cut off the tails of working puppies- so it would be some kid's limbs and not others then?

> I'll say!  At the age it is done, when the spinal nerve has not begun to complete its developement away from the brain into the extremity of the tail it is more closely akin to nail clipping that amputation of a limb.

Thats all and well but we are still cutting off dogs tails when it need not be done and that was my original question WHY are we still doing this when their no longer working breeds??

> WHY are we still doing this when their no longer working breeds??

Well, we are not as it happens but dogs don't understand the distinction between work and leisure activities.

> dogs don't understand the distinction between work and leisure activities.

Im sure they realise their missing something tho!!

It just seems that Boxers, Rotties and Dobermans are all docked purely for vanity and it isnt right in this day of animal rights and animal welfare, who has the right to chop off any animals body part just because 'They look better ' without it? Isnt that shocking?? Cause it is to me.

Dogs with tails on traditionally docked breeds only look different now, everyone will get used to them in time.

I had the "getting used to" experience when I moved from the U.S. to the UK 12+ years ago with respect to ear cropping.   Most of the time the only time I saw breeds like Great Danes or Doberman's or Schnauzers and others was at dog shows and so they all had cropped ears.  If the ears were not cropped, it was a pretty sure sign that the dog was from a backyard breed or was a puppy mill pet shop dog.  (I have to say though the first time someone brought a Doberman puppy with them to a dog show meeting with his ears all taped up I thought it was absolutely horrific and cruel.)

When I moved to the UK I thought all those floppy big ears on dogs who I was used to seeing with cropped ears looked very ugly and strange.  Now, my impression is just the opposite - I think cropped ears look harsh and horrible. 

I don't think tail docking can be compared to ear cropping.  And I am astounded that any vet (Crespin, referring to the situation in your area) would think that removing dew claws - which are useless appendages that are frequently caught and easily injured - could be considered cruel.  

What I am concerned about with the ban on tail docking is that breeders will start breeding for a specific type of tail.  I think that's inevitable.  The danger in doing that is giving more attention to desired tail set and length than to all the many other and more important things that need to be considered when breeding.

I don't like docked tails personally, unless there is a specific 'medical' reason for doing so, which might include working for some breeds, although my breed has never been a docked one.

I have several friends with cocker puppies, undocked, and I see no reason why their tails would get caught in car doors etc? Unless you're extremely careless, of course!

I admit I found it odd seeing Dobes, Rotties etc with tails to start with, and it must be especially odd for those who have owned docked breeds for a long time, but now I am more used to it, I quite like it.

And for anyone who thinks a dog with a tail can't wag it's bum too, my girl wags her whole body, not just her tail and bum! :-)

I agree Rach85, to cut anything off, whether it hurts or not, whether it is cruel or not, simply because we like the way it looks better, is shocking.

> simply because we like the way it looks better, is shocking.

Woah....huge can of worms there Jackson.
Long coats, short legs, drop ears, hairless, curly coats, white coats, spots... the list is endless.
The truth is everyone who buys a pedigree dog is choosing it ( in the main) because "simply because we like the way it looks"

> The truth is everyone who buys a pedigree dog is choosing it ( in the main) because "simply because we like the way it looks"

Not the same in my eyes.
Everyone knows what breed they want or like the look of, that goes without saying.

Poeple keep getting off the point tho,

The point is we are CUTTING limbs off puppies just because it looks nice and THAT is the problem espicially when they have no need to remove the tail whatsoever other then vanity.
All dogs look different but why cant these ones keep their tails? why do they have to be chopped off?

Sure we all see through different eyes.  I think it's dreadful to subject a bitch to a major invasive operation like a hysterectomy just because the owner cannot take responsible care of her when she's in season and for the owners' convenience for her not to have season.  That operation can cause considerable distress to the bitch, not like efficiently done docking, when the pups are completely unaware.  I've seen pups object more to having their nails cut than when having their tails removed.

The most distressing cases of docking that I've seen have been carried out by Veterinary Surgeons.  The most efficient being done by old fashioned and experienced breeders. :)

I'm for freedom of choice.

When an issue is simply a matter of choice/preference/taste I don't think it should be twisted into a legal issue.

I do believe animal cruelty is an issue, and their may well have been instances of illegal tail docking which would be correctly interpreted as acts of cruelty, but I believe the previous legislation was adequate - but should have been enforced and correctly certified, and the illegal practictioners should have been identified and prosecuted.  

However as an issue of choice, the KC should have ensured that breeders of pups from docked breeds stood an equal chance in the show ring in they selected not to dock their pups. Because really the option to choose not to dock didn't really fully exist and therefore is seems fair enough to take that descision out of their hands and ban docking as has been done but appreciate this is on the grounds of this being largely unnessesary and not in relation to animal cruelty.

However my dogs are docked and it isn't a problem, I'd even say it is actually a bit of an advantage for some working dogs.  I was concerened about owning a docked breed and was unable to find pups with tails so loked into this and decided it really wasn't an issie - as my trainer told me what was I wanting a dog of my choice or just a tail?

As for the working dogs I've even heard of several Border collies in the past 12 months who were working in the same type of work that my dogs are intended to be used or who have suffered crushed tails through being trampled on by unbroken cattle. This is not a risk here but for working dogs their breeders should be trusted to make the right descisions for their pups!  If breeders are to be trusted with the genetics then to keep the tail or not is nothing!   But then to ban a working dog who is bred for health and workability from the showring because it is safer for that dog to be docked seems a bit nuts.

Also to mess with the whole genetics of breeding an all round good healthy dog now just to create a tail - to take the emphasis away from the dog to the matter of creating something that was previously outside the breed standards sounds worrying.

I don't think that if it was to be made into an 'issue' it is a clear enough 'issue' to have a clear answer, and therefore the legislation might not fully be the best descision. Who knows. It would seem best imo to have had either a full ban or leave it fully to individual choice.

Rach I assume that this is all theory on your part and that you've never ever docked a puppy. Well I have....lots ...and it is a terribly trivial, non- dramatic procedure. I'm assured that many see it as rather a voodoo- type ritual mainly by the same people who buy cheap eggs, eat cheap chicken and other intesely farmed animals, which unlike puppies, go on to live a miserable existance for their whole life.
If anyone who feels strongly about docking is boycotting bacon, battery kept hens eggs and many other more barbaric practices in food production - then I would say fair enough.

I can honestly say that, getting a knot out of one of my pups knickers is more traumatic, to her, than if I'd docked her at 48hrs old.   And that is the truth not the media hype-  where I can only assume you've got your first hand experience!

> If anyone who feels strongly about docking is boycotting bacon, battery kept hens eggs and many other more barbaric practices in food production - then I would say fair enough.

Thats not even slightly related in my eyes, we need to eat chickens etc for food but there is no purpose to docking a tail in some breeds, i understand breeders wanting to defend it but not being able to admit it is wrong in terms of removing a tail which is perfectly healthy from a non working breed is another thing.

> where I can only assume you've got your first hand experience!

Where many people get their expierance yes but I do come from a family of mass dog owners (IE Everyone in my family had a dog) but I still dont think that removing a dogs tail in these breeds ROTTIE, BOXER, DOBE why is it needed? What purpose does it serve??

An earlier post mentioned tails being trampled, that sound sterrible and the tail shouod be docked if it IS a working breed, but if your breeding the 3 breeds mentioned WHY are you still docking when there is no need too is my question.

> Well I have....lots ...and it is a terribly trivial, non- dramatic procedure.

That doesnt give us the right to remove dogs tails just cause its painless?????

I have a merry cocker with a lovely white flag on his tail he's beautiful and so is his tail. I would not personally buy a docked dog - just personal preference.

we need to eat chickens etc for food

No "we" don't!  Many lead healthy lives without eating slaughtered animals at all! :)  I happen to ejoy eating meat, but I make sure as best that I can, that it's been humanely kept and slaughtered.  I would expect dogs to be treated with the same respect if they were docked.  Unfortunately now, because of the ban, Vets rarely perform the procedure and are not as adept as the old breeders used to be. :(

I would not personally buy a docked dog - just personal preference.
Just as it should be. :)

our border comes from a long line of working dogs he is ISDN and all his family and all the dogs trained by his breeder (there was 32 there last time) have full beautiful brushes for tails. How could anyone dock a border collie!!

> Where many people get their expierance yes but I do come from a family of mass dog owners (IE Everyone in my family had a dog)

Toolz is talking about actually docking which you appear to have no first hand experience of.  In fact, from your continual comments about docking dogs just for appearance I gather you don't really know what the actual status of docking is at present so, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't really see the point of debating it with you :-)

Whistler  - They don't dock border collies. I was just pointing out that because they are not docked that when they do the same work as docked breeds they do suffer the same type of injuries that breeders of the docked breeds claim their dogs would suffer from if they had not been docked.  ( which they don't suffer from because they are docked so they have no proof of the safety value of docking by looking at their breed. )  :)

but I can't really see the point of debating it with you

Just the sort of person who hinders peoples learning then arent you?
If you have such a dismissive attitude of others who have less expierance then yourself (Who I presume from your posts you know EVERYTHING there is to know about dogs and docking etc) then why even begin in the debate? Why get involved?

My question never got answered anyway, just the typical runaround without answering the actual question so what is even the point of asking.

Oh point taken Apologies.

> My question never got answered anyway

Well here's my answer Rach.....
I have had docked puppies, I have docked puppies, .........I think ( and boy oh boy do I have some experience in this)  that this is, in the grand scheme of things, no big deal. It is but nothing and I mean nothing in comparison to the catalogue of abuse and misery many dogs ( and other animals) suffer on a daily basis.
Before you start on about the suffering...I never witnessed any suffering and I was there, so you would have to bring my interity into question if you believe the hype and not my word.
You may think that there is suffering and you may have been told it ..........but were you there?

For what my opinion is worth I don't like docking either...for working or not, any animal is prone to accidents just like we humans and to remove a part of that dogs anatomy for whatever (Work or apperance) reason is in my eyes unjustified (with the possible exception to front dew claws, domesticated dogs do not get the oportunity to utilize these as their wild cousins do and therfore they may become problamatic) Having said that some breed standards call for dew claws to be kept on some taken off..and with some of the giant double clawed breeds they can be a problem.  My neighbours sheltie pup (18 weeks) has just last night tripped and fell off of the back door step and fractured his front leg...should we have removed it to save him harm?? I have not enough knowledge to quantify pain during tail docking..I suspect it is slight, however that is not the piont IMO just why do it anyway???
Still each to his own. If someone else wishes to have docked dogs far be it from me to stop them.
Aileen

> with the possible exception to front dew claws, domesticated dogs do not get the oportunity to utilize these as their wild cousins do and therfore they may become problamatic

I think if you acknowledge that the possibility exists that dogs do no always have the ideal anatomy to suit their lifestyles and may need to be protected from injury I don't see why this same reasoning cannot be applied to tails in dogs that have a lifestyle that makes them a liability whether they are actually working or not.

Morning Isobelle,
As I undestand it many working sports dogs are docked to protect them from harming their tails. However I have as you know Bernese and they have lovely bushy wavey tails...in all  the years I have had them I have never had a tail injury and believe me they go into any rough scrub cover at full tilt after bunnies and squirrells (Merlot got two squirrells this morning on her walk!!) and they wag them fit to bust sometimes beating them into anything ie. kitchen cupboards etc..  My Uncle was a gamekeeper all his life and had springers and labs and goldies some docked some not and he always said accidents will happen and we deal with them as and when... so I have no reason to believe that a tail injury is any more likely to happen than any other type of injury. As I said just my opinion, and I would not wish to inflict my opinion on any one else..the choice is entirely theirs, I was just answering the OP question as I saw it personnaly.
Just to throw fuel on the fire...I don't like overgroomed fancy clips on dogs either!!!!!
Aileen. xxx

> so I have no reason to believe that a tail injury is any more likely to happen than any other type of injury.

Can the same not be said of front dew claws then?

>Just to throw fuel on the fire...I don't like overgroomed fancy clips on dogs either!!!!!

I don't much either :-)

Yes it could but i feel front dew claws are something that dogs have "out-evolved" and in many breeds they are missing from birth, those with huge double ones are I believe a throw back to a more  undomesticated time (To be honest I only remove the hind ones on my pups as they are often large and double, and I hate to have them done...but I am in some ways a hypocrite because I only have them off for showing purposes!!) In all the time I had GSD's I only ever had one pup with all four claws most had no back ones at all and the front ones stayed put!
Much as I woulld love to continue this discussion I have to be at work at 1pm so I will catch up with it tomorrow  (or tonight if I'm not too shattered at 10.30pm!!!!!) I think we have a lot in common Isablle and we could have a good old chat about all sorts ;-) ;-)
Aileen

Well I have 4 boxers, 3 docked and one 8 month old boy with a full tail

I love the boxer without a tail. I am not ashamed to say that for cosmetic reasons only, boxers look better docked. That's how they were developed to look like and in my opinion, that's how they should stay. I have had 1st hand witnessing docking and I wouldn't put 2 day old pups through the procedure if I thought it would cause them any suffering.

I have had to get used to the idea of tails, yes, I like Digger wagging his and he has had no injuries yet, but he has wacked my old girly in the eye and given her an eye ulcer which luckily has healed ok.

I suppose I would rather have a boxer with a tail than not one at all but on the other hand I would like to be able to put a wine glass on the coffee table without it being knocked off as well!!

Boxers look better without tails to me. Period.

> And for anyone who thinks a dog with a tail can't wag it's bum too, my girl wags her whole body, not just her tail and bum!

LOL, mine too, he does a full-body wiggle, his tail is only a small part of it and I'm sure his tail only moves because his bum is wagging :)

When I moved to the UK I thought all those floppy big ears on dogs who I was used to seeing with cropped ears looked very ugly and strange

It is interesting, seeing the point of view from a person that lived in a place that allowed these procedures, and then moving to a place that didnt. 

When I first joined the forum, knowing it was a UK based forum, I knew the topic of cosmetic surgery is a touchy one.  But can I say, that at first when I saw pictures of Dobes and other breeds that to me, are  normally "cropped" and "docked" I did think it was a bit strange looking.  But I see a dane with cropped ears, I hate it.  I love the natural look. 

But its all down onto what you are used to.  I know many people here, that have said "If I cant crop and dock, I am getting out of the breed".  I would never do that, but it would definately take some time getting used to the "new" look. 

In Regards to the vet situation here, about declaws:  What I dont understand is how they can say removing tails, ears, and dewclaws is cruel.  But I can still remove the claws from my cat no problem. 
(not that Ontario has joined the recent outlawing of such procedures yet, but looking at it already, incase it does happen. So far its just NB, and possibly PEI - I think they vote next week or something)

Declawing cats in the UK is banned & has been, along with debarking dogs, for many many years

I've never owned a traditionally docked breed so its not something that I've ever given a lot of thought to, but having seen some of these breeds with tails - yes they do look odd - but I have no doubt we will get used to the look  :-D . I suppose that the current issue is what kind of tail looks better? - there is a Cocker Spaniel that gets walked near me and its tail resembles a bottle brush and is almost longer than the dog :-D Just one more thing for the breeders to consider when they are selecting breeding partners.

Many breeds, such as poodles NEED their dewclaws removed, due to the hair and risk of matting.  Dewclaws have been pulled out in the grooming process before!  And dewclaws when they get pulled are VERY messy.

Several breeds of dog NEED to be docked, such as the Old English Sheepdog (aka Bobtail), as the risk of flystrike is very great with the heavy coated breeds.

This is of course my opinion, and I am pro-choice having had puppies docked with the dam present and unconcerned.

> Many breeds, such as poodles NEED their dewclaws removed, due to the hair and risk of matting.  Dewclaws have been pulled out in the grooming process before!  And dewclaws when they get pulled are VERY messy.

> Several breeds of dog NEED to be docked, such as the Old English Sheepdog (aka Bobtail), as the risk of flystrike is very great with the heavy coated breeds.

Will start by saying that I'm actually in the pro-docking camp, although don't have docked breeds myself, but find the comments above astounding.

Surely any groomer who pulled a dew claw out during the grooming process would be extremely negligent? It's not as if it's a surprise where the dew claws are, surely can't be too difficult to take care in that area.

And having some very heavily coated Rough Collies myself, I would personally think the second point very strange. Surely this is a matter of decent animal husbandry? These are not sheep roaming in the fields. How does an OES differ from a Rough Collie to make this such an issue?

Apologies if this seems harsh, but I'm very confused by both those arguments.

M.

Knowing how precarious my poodle's dewclaws are and knowing how much his coat tangles around them, I am very wary of them when grooming.  A weekly wash and blowdry ensure's the coat doesn't snag too much.  Not everyone can afford a professional groomer and will yank a brush through the coat without a second thought - poodle legs are VERY hairy.  When speaking my mind like this, I am of course speaking of the lesser knowledgable dog owner, many of whom have breeds they shouldn't have in a million years.  You look after your heavy coated dogs, many people do not!  It is these dogs that vet surgeries see with fly strike and pulled dewclaws. 

> I think if you acknowledge that the possibility exists that dogs do not always have the ideal anatomy to suit their lifestyles and may need to be protected from injury I don't see why this same reasoning cannot be applied to tails in dogs that have a lifestyle that makes them a liability whether they are actually working or not.

So on this basis if the design does not fit the purpose,
Re-design it.
That's what we do in the Electronics Industry, but then we're dealing with components and not life-form.
I have yet to see an animal that does not look good in what nature gave it.
Just because we are not used to seeing certain breeds with tails does not mean that it is right to remove them.
Oh and by the way I eat free range everything.

There are several undocked poodles I have heard of that appear to have "dead tails", the bit that is normally docked off hangs limp and lifeless.  Anyone else seen such a thing as this? 

> Several breeds of dog NEED to be docked, such as the Old English Sheepdog (aka Bobtail), as the risk of flystrike is very great with the heavy coated breeds.
>

How does removing the tail reduce flystrike if it's the heavy coat that attracts the flies? I'm just curious as I know rabbits can get fly-strike even though they have tiny little bob-tails, it's dirt that attract the flies with them, not a tail (ie, a rabbit sitting/living in it's own poop will be prone to fly-strike).

why would you want to remove a cats dew claws ?

So on this basis if the design does not fit the purpose,
Re-design it.
That's what we do in the Electronics Industry, but then we're dealing with components and not life-form.
I have yet to see an animal that does not look good in what nature gave it.
Our breeds are not 'as nature intended' Selective breeding has created breeds with the characteristics most suitable for the type of work required from them.    Where it was more suitable not to have a tail breeder sin the past tried to breed from naturally bobbed dogs to create more pups with no tails and hopefully in the end have tailless breeds  - but breeding like this creates genetic problems so docking is actually a better option.

So yes the dogs we own are alterations  or re-designes of the dogs nature origionally blessed us with and are designed to suit our requirements, and this has bees so right from  the dawn of man when the early hunters first found a place in their lives for their canine companions.