hi i have a springer spaniel and am wanting to breed her in the future. can someone please tell me what is the oldest i can have a litter from her and it to still be safe for her
thanks

my girl as had 3 litters and shes 4 (shes not having any more) kc say before 5 ,some let there dogs have pups later than this but i wouldnt and never a 1st litter after 5

The oldest a bitch can be is 8 years at the time of whelping ( in order to register the litter with the KC ) Although you wouldn't want her to be having a 1st litter at that age , that's more an individual thing and you would probably need guidance from a vet as to how  "safe" it would be for an older bitch.

>The oldest a bitch can be is 8 years at the time of whelping

No, the oldest she can be is 7 years at the time of whelping. The KC states that they will not register a litter if:
"c) The bitch has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping."

Of course that's too old for a first litter; 4 years or 5 (depending on the breed) is usually considered the oldest for a (safe) first litter.

The Kennel Club may agree to register a litter whelped to a bitch who is 8 yrs provided that the following guidelines are met:

KENNEL CLUB GUIDELINES FOR THE REGISTRATION, IN EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, OF PUPPIES FROM A BITCH WHO IS OVER THE AGE OF EIGHT
Please read this leaflet carefully and then complete the enclosed application forms.
1) As per Regulation B3.25 22c (2) "The General Committee will not accept an application to register a litter when the dam has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping. Relief from the restriction set out in 22c (2) may be considered by the General Committee normally provided the application is made prior to the mating, and the proposed dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter. Any such application must be accompanied by veterinary evidence as to the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping."
2) Any application for dispensation from the eight year rule must be made on the enclosed form, and returned to:The Registrations Team The Kennel Club

I am aware of some breeders who have been able to register litters this way although obviously not a first litter. 

> my girl as had 3 litters and shes 4 (shes not having any more)

Thank goodness for that!

>> my girl as had 3 litters and shes 4 (shes not having any more)
> Thank goodness for that!

Most of mine have only had one litter by 4, and at most may be on their second by heading towards five, but in my breed it is advised that a first litter is bred before a bitch is five.

Same here.

> The KC states that they will not register a litter if:
> "c) The bitch has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping."
>

In that case should they take it seriously if I point out to them that they have registered a litter from a bitch that was over 8 yrs old at the time of whelping?

Scrub that, just seen hillbilly's post... but it was a 5th or 6th litter i forget which now and i just don't see the need.

I think the instances where they will approve a litter from a bitch past her 8th birthday are extremely rare though. Was it something like the Crufts group winning Dykebar Border Collie bitch who had permission refused for a ?second? litter ... or something like that?

So unless it is a breed with a very small gene pool, I wouldn't expect the KC to approve it. This is purely conjecture on my part though!

M.

It was alot harder then than it is now M. However she had gone RBIS at Crufts but had also had 3 litters  producing  9 dogs and 3 bitches intotal.

Has it got easier then G.? To be honest, the instances where I think that it should be approved would be VERY few and far between, I must say, and would probably come down to endangered breeds and exceptional merit.

Maybe a simplistic view, but as we know you have to work to a general approach - and if they haven't produced anything worthwhile by the time they're 8 it seems unlikely they will afterwards anyway.

M.

Well I dont think BC's are rare but do now know of  breeders who have had such permission.

It is not a rare breed and the bitch had no titles whatsoever.

My bitch was granted special permission at the end of last year :)  She whelped a few weekss after her 8th birthday. 

This was only her second litter, her first having produced a UK and US champion (the only two which were shown).  She has 2CCs and several RCCs but went off the showring so unfortunately never gained her title.  She is the first of only 3 daughters of her world famous UK record holding dam and in excellent physical and mental shape before, during and now 10 months after whelping :) 

> and if they haven't produced anything worthwhile by the time they're 8 it seems unlikely they will afterwards anyway.

Of four pups so far shown in the UK, 3 have already gained RCCs, my own lad has 2 plus a puppy group 3 under his belt, and three others are overseas, with one already winning top honours in SA.  At all of 10 months it's early days of course but I think it's fair to say at this point it was probably a 'worthwhile' mating :)

Yes, sounds entirely so Teri, I can't argue with that.

Not in any way asking you to justify yourself, so please don't take it as such, but if it's only a second litter how did it come about that she got to that age before you felt you wanted to mate her again?

As I said in my original post, the issue of course is that the rules need to apply relatively generically. I don't suppose there are many who would argue with your circumstances below - but I would guess (perhaps I'm wrong) that they're fairly unusual. Hopefully the KC did take all your circumstances in to account before giving permission, and it wouldn't be a blanket approval.

M.

> if it's only a second litter how did it come about that she got to that age before you felt you wanted to mate her again?

Her breeder, a dear friend, always wanted a bitch puppy from her :)  She had her first litter at 4.5yrs - our breed can have health issues (epilepsy) which would not necessarily show up before then.  Two years down the line we had chosen an overseas stud but she failed her titre test for her PP.  By her following season my husband was ill and so plans were then postponed for a while and we knew in advance that by the time she was due in season again she would be over age when whelping.  In an ideal world and therefore different circumstances she would have had her second and final litter at 6(ish) but it didn't work out that way!

I had planned to breed her champion daughter this year but kept 'monster man' from the litter we're discussing and since I'd only breed to keep one I've now postponed my plans for her (great plans, mine anyway, don't always come to fruition :-D )

>great plans, mine anyway, don't always come to fruition

Don't we all know it!

As I say, your circumstances sound just like those that the appeals process is made for. Let's hope it's not too easy for others though (EDIT), particularly such as those referred to above where the bitch has already had multiple litters.

M.

I do agree it should be a case of all circumstances being taken into account and each application reviewed separately.  Certainly when several litters have been taken from an individual bitch I'd hope that the rules would be very strict.

Personally I think 2 litters from a bitch is enough but some may only produce an all male litter or 1 or two pups so I guess providing a bitch is in excellent health, of proven quality and has something significant to offer the gene pool then exceptions should be allowed under scrutiny.  As mentioned my bitch was one of only 3 bitches produced by her dam who herself was a single bitch pup in a litter of (from memory) 7 or 8.  

regards, Teri

you don,t say whether your bitch has had a litter

  who are you asking welshie?  The reply came to me and I've said my bitch has had her litter :)

It wasn't unusual for Beardies in the past sadly-these were not bitches who had only had one previous litter nor bitches that were only just 8 years of age, Cassie(Potterdale Classic at Moonhill) was 8 1/2 & had already had 28 puppies before the litter of 6 born after she was 8 & her mother had a litter when she was 9 after having already having had 25 puppies for which there is absolutely no excuse at all for breeding after the age of 8.

Litter I am talking about - 6th litter out of a bitch 8yrs 4 days old... total 57 puppies....

> Litter I am talking about - 6th litter out of a bitch 8yrs 4 days old... total 57 puppies....

Gosh. Words fail me. Mind you, I suppose if the registrations weren't approved they'd just have been miraculously born early anyway.

M.

That's just morally wrong IMO :(  :(  :(

Do you think it is worth reporting to the KC, given that it is over a year ago now - and presumably the KC realised that they had registered the litter from a bitch over 8 at the time?

sorry  teri      i was asking .......stanyer21

Perhaps they did give permission :( 

......  it seems wrong to me in the circumstances given but I wouldn't have thought it somehow managed to be sneaked through the registration system as the DOB of the dam would be directly linked to the reg nos  

no she has not had a litter yet she is not quite 2. i was just asking cos i really wanted to breed her only  when i can keep a pup and i know that would not be for a good few years. i dont want to risk doing it at an age for it to be unsafe for her tho. so i really wanted to know what would be the oldest for a first litter, just if 5 would say be to old i would not want to then breed her as i know i could never breed her without keeping one.

Does that mean she's had a litter per year since she was a year old? Or, she's had 3 litters in 2 years? To be honest I find that absolutely abhorent! Why on earth would you do that to her?

What breed is she? A rare breed with a line of Champions behind her? And of course titles herself?

newfieddreams i have lost track here......
what do you mean
x

Hi stanyer21

I think newfiedreams was replying to munrogirl's post a few lines further up - who was talking about a different mating entirely to yours :) 

Unfortunately some posters simply press the reply button on the last post whether or not that was the person their reply was meant for!

regards Teri

> Why on earth would you do that to her?

If it was in reply to me - I didn't do that to her.

Whoops, didn't notice that line kiddo   Perhaps better if I'd left it to newfie to expand :-D

Cant you sleep Teri? Burnin' the midnight oil?

Any way, what about this senario....... A bitch is discovered to be clear of an (inherited) disease in a gene pool sadly lacking in such bitches. A new breeding program is established by AHT called EBVs ( Estimated Breeding Values) to help breeders select a mate free from the 2 diseases which blight the breed, both I may add often dont come to light until the individual is over 5. The EBV improves daily the longer the animal is phenotypically free of either condition (and her relatives of course.)
If the breed whelps well in middle age do you see any justification to shift the optimal breeding age of this particular breed and in particular any particularily important individuals?

> do you see any justification to shift the optimal breeding age of this particular breed

As a whole, no.

> in particular any particularly important individuals

Absolutely, yes.

M.

Hi sis, that oil was still sizzling at 3-00 am ;)

I would hope that the KC in it's wisdom (there must be a bit of it lurking somewhere :-D) would be more open minded to the long term health status of a breed thus affected and that yes, they would permit breeding from specific bitches within that breed on the proviso that the health, type and character of their particular lines were valuable to the future of the breed as a whole.  However I don't think any breed should be given carte blanche to, say, breed until 10/11 years as doubtless it would be open to abuse.

My own breed does seem to whelp easily, including first litters, when older than average and some lines have proven to shell them like peas regardless of being 3, 6 or 9 so it's certainly not always detrimental to the bitch herself to breed her again beyond the current age rule.

I did mention further up this thread

> it should be a case of all circumstances being taken into account and each application reviewed separately.  Certainly when several litters have been taken from an individual bitch I'd hope that the rules would be very strict

Nowt in life is ever black and white and what good rules if there can't be exceptions!

Well, I thought I hit the right reply button but obviously not! I have been on here a long time so thought I knew what I was doing(that's a joke by the way, Munro & Teri! Munro, I know who you are and I'm gonna get ya!)

I was referring to white lilly's reply about breeding a bitch 3 times in either 2 years or 3 times since she was 12 months old! I just find that excessive!

> Nowt in life is ever black and white and what good rules if there can't be exceptions!

I do hope that this logic occurs to the KC as I fear they will make hasty new rules and have the embarassment of recinding them again.

> that oil was still sizzling at 3-00 am

Are you no sleeping well hen?

> Are you no sleeping well hen?

Nup, rubbish :(  Methinks I'm gonna be skelly-eyed tomorrow and tripping round the ring (may as well double up on the G&Ts then and at least enjoy myself :-D )

Lucky youv got a nice wee dug then :-)

Aye, and another wee belter too ;)
currently they are play fighting - wildly swinging off each others neck fur ............ not a good look!!!!

> I think the instances where they will approve a litter from a bitch past her 8th birthday are extremely rare though. Was it something like the Crufts group winning Dykebar Border Collie bitch who had permission refused for a ?second? litter ... or something like that?
>
> So unless it is a breed with a very small gene pool, I wouldn't expect the KC to approve it. This is purely conjecture on my part though!
>
>

Yep, the top winning bitch in my breed was refused a secong litter after the age of 8 and we don't have the biggest gene pool in the world.

3 litters out of a 4 year old bitch - poor thing.   

They've allowed me with two of my girls, one 7 years ago and one now.  Though we are only a small breed s in numbers so maybe that's why?