I need some advice re walking with one of my dogs.  My boy is 3, he's a standard schnauzer, he's very big, he's very strong with big muscles and he has some kind of fear aggression.  Walking him round the block is fraught with danger.  If on a normal lead, he not only lunges, snapping at people but also chokes himself.  I practice walking with him constantly (stopping if he pulls, changing direction etc etc, walking with chicken in hand.. you name it, we do it) and he does improve about 15 mins into the walk but he's always well over excited and this is when he snaps the most.  I changed the normal collar and lead to a halti, years ago, and whilst it stops him pulling me, it doesn't stop him trying to pull and he walked practically facing backwards the entire way. 

So i changed to a harness.  Its stopping him choking himself but I have no control over his head really.

So I am thinking about going back to a halti but someone else has said a gentle leader is better.  I don't really know the difference but wondered if you could advise me what they are like?

Thanks ever so much!

Jo

I've realised that one paragraph sounds like i am walking him and a chicken at the same time.

This is not the case. 

can't offer much advice but a friend of mine has a std as well who is now 4-5 yrs, she (the DOG) was an absolute **** when she was younger and friend found that the 'dogmatic' worked best after trying a bunch of different ones.
Chris

i use a harness and a halti, (a seperate lead for each), but it means when my dog (15 months & exitable) trys to jump at people to greet them I can controll his head with the halti and the 'lunge' with the harness without it chocking him. He's a big boy (11+ stone) and this combination gives me great controll, along with distraction/reward with treats :)

I agree with Chris, Dogmatic every time.  Fits properly and does not go into eyes.

I would say the gentle leader is better for your situation.

for a start the webbing has not got sharp edges and is softer and wider,a and the adjustable slide under the muzzle part locks to the correct width so it stays put better than the Halti.

Any head collar should be attached to the lead and the lead also clipped to the chain of a half check collar or check chain, or one of those links you can attach to collar and then to the lead, in case the head collar comes off.

Here are some imgages, Gemntle leader http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=gentle+leader&FORM=BIRE# and Halti http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=Halti&FORM=BIRE#

I use this on my boy and its excellent,www.k9bridle.com it does up behind the head instead of under the chin.

that is one thing to consider I think, where the lead does up.  Are all the others under the chin.

On the one hand, its great that there is so much choice but on the other - Arrgh!  So much choice..  :)

It's important to use them correctly - ie, the dog should be walking by the owner's side more or less, as if out in front the headcollar can't work.

I recently helped a jrt owner with her pulling dog on a headcollar.He was really pulling but I showed her how he could be encouraged with "good boy" (we didn't even need to use any food reward as he loved her to tell him he was good, but with some dogs you may have to) and gently use the weaker fingers of the left hand to "tweak" him from walking ahead.

Not sure if that's explained very well - the end of the lead was in the right hand and the tweaking done with the little and ring finger of the left hand on the lead a couple of feet from his headcollar, whilst telling him when he was a good boy.

Hth a bit maybe??

good luck.

I use a canny collar on my GR during firework season if we have to go out after dark. The lead attaches behind the head and if the loop does manage to come off the nose somehow it just reverts back to being a normal collar so dog is still attached. Google canny collar company and you can see a video of how they work.

canni collar is good. a collar/head collar combi. much improved on the gentle leader. try it out in the dhop before you buy.

it would help if you could work out what made him become this way with people to be begin with?
what is his particular trigger point?
where did you get him from?
have you tried a behaviourist or one on one trainer with behaviour experience?

yes we've had endless behaviourists.  One of them wasn't reputable and frankly made the whole thing ten times worse.  Our latest one is an Amichen behaviourist.  We do try but the worst of it is that he is not predictable.  He will walk past 12 dogs and go for the 13th.  Or walk past someone who actually looks strange and then snap at the 'normal' person behind them.  He's as bad at home as well, I keep him on the lead when people come round.  He will eventually settle down but if they dare move, stand up, walk out - he'll start really barking.  Then he is hysterical when they come back in, its like he forgets them the second they leave the room. 

I don't know what started this.  I suspect its something to do with when he was younger, we used to have a dog walker and when she took our other dog out she would leave him with her friend (who was an alcoholic with a nasty poodle).  I have no proof at all an this is merely conjecture.  Definitely some of it is inherited, his mother was very aggressive when we went to see the pups and we didn't know enough to recognise that this could be passed down.   He always flinches when you go near his head. He has dominance issues too.

Such a shame - at home, with us, he is the nicest most loving boy you could ever want.

On my big lunging dog I use a halti harness and a dogmatic headcollar.  She is improving a lot using the two together as I feel more in control so relax she has relaxed a lot.

Have tried loads of different ones and always come back to the gentle leader.  THe dogmatic I found was good but could move too much on the head which is no use for a dog that lunges, the halti closes the mouth at the same time as when they pull whcih I dont like especially during the summer, the canny collar was a great idea but much too fiddly. 

I like the gentle leader because it fits nicely to the head and snugly and doesnt then ride up into their eyes.  I have recently got the new deluxe one they have started doing from america which also has a felt bit of material under the nose loop which has improved it even more.

http://flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html  I found this article very interesting.  Any comments?

so jo, who did you get him from? (or what part of country) just wondering as my bitch has similar problems

i used the gentle leader on my boy (hes a large rhodesian ridgeback) it was good for general use but at shows when he gets reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally excited about meeting the other dogs it would ride up into his eyes, and they would be red for going into showring and im sure it would hurt, so i tried the dogmatic, and its great, doesnt ride up at all, and appears to be comfy, he doesnt mind it all, nice thick padding and a nice design so it gets my vote.

I am from Essex and we got them from a lady in Benfleet.  I speak to her often and all of the dogs from the litter have similar problems, varying in seriousness.  I think we got off lightly really!  Like i said, he's so good in the house, if we never had to meet other dogs or people he'd be ideal.  :)   He's just so jumpy and scared and sadly he goes for the 'attack first' method.  My other schnauzer (bitch) was also from Essex but from a different lady and apart from being a stubborn little so and so with a mistaken belief that she is in charge of all of us, she's an absolute angel.  Very friendly and trusting, good with strangers and great with other dogs.  She was my first and i was so naive I thought he would be like this too!  She's not the best on the lead either but only in that she will occasionally weave in front of you to smell a tree and I can correct that quite quickly.

I saw that article and whilst i agree with some of the points, my main fear is that Lubo doesn't let the fear of a broken neck or damaged windpipe stand in the way of him pulling, plus the added danger to unsuspecting passers by is narrowing my options.  When we've been walking a while and getting into the rhythym of walking he is good as gold but its the first 10-15 minutes.

just out of interest, what colour are your schnauzers? my bitch was from essex, salt and pepper, was good for 2 years and then increasingly agressive now she is getting older (5 now), mind you she was reared in a shed!  my other bitch, black from salisbury, reared in a kennel, fine with people but can be agressive with smaller dogs. both are murder on the lead and i cant walk both together! we usualy go to park in car and they are ok. i have to say his behaviour sounds normal to me! they are a very dominant and headstrong breed and being head shy is typical.  my s&p bitch had 2 litters- before she began to get aggressive and the pups all have great temperaments- reared in house of course, i think this makes a big difference.

I've used and can recommend the Dogmatic, the leather version :) 

On a general note I should imagine that much depends on how great the need is for head control and much of that relies on how long the required lead is!  In a medium - large size dog the lead will have no great length to it so the likeliehood of a dog having sufficient 'lunge space' is far less than if with a smaller breed for example.  Lunging on a head collar could have serious repercussions on necks but I wouldn't have thought that this would be an issue with your GS :)

HTH, Teri

they are salt and pepper.  Lubo also doesn't like smaller dogs and he is a dreadful bully if there is a puppy around.  I have to have him on the lead now as one day when I was out walking him he ran past this woman, jumped middair and as he flew past he nipped her elbow.  I was absolutely horrified - he's since tried to do it again and I just can't trust him.  I need to find a muzzle thats good for him,  I bought a basket one and he spends the whole time jumping around trying to get it off him.

Well maybe I need to try the dogmatic and give that a go. 

I am very interested in allyour comments on this one. I have a problem stopping my 18mth gsd from pulling. He is so excited when we go any where he pulls right from the beginning of getting out the car or the front door. Also can lunge at something that takes his fancy usually another dog or cat. People arn't usually a problemH e is not agressive but by the end of a walk I am exhausted. I have tried halti and gentle leader and am now using a harness. The halti and gentle leader both ride up to his eyes despite  trying different sizes and may have been responsible for a skin infection on his muzzle. The harness isnt a lot better than  a collar and lead , We are still trying various training methods to get him to walk properly. There is no particular reason for this behaviour as he has always pulled despite all the training and listening and trying different methods from a baby.
Now to my question does any one think either the dogmatic or acanny collar would be better given the above and how do they not rub the nose or ride  up. I would love to go for a relaxing walk instead of being pulled all the time. I can remember what it is like to have a relaxed walk as my previous dog a flatti) was brilliant on the lead so I must have got something right somehow

I found that the halti raised up on my dog so a friend gave me her dogmatic in leather. It was and still is brilliant. Its much stronger and just seems to sit in the right place.

If the Dogmatic is the correct fit/size for the breed - more specifically your particular dog! - then it shouldn't ride up into the eyes or rub the muzzle :)  When I first ordered one I bought the recommended size for my breed but in reality it was too large and they exchanged it without fuss at all so well worth phoning and asking their advice and also providing the measurements on the areas they recommend :)

regards, Teri

> I've realised that one paragraph sounds like i am walking him and a chicken at the same time.

I have absolutely nothing useful to add, but this really really made me laugh :) thank you

K

found a great alternative called k9 bridle look on their web site even shows how it works on a video

Have just bought the k9 bridle and have taken it for first walk. Whispa is walking beautifully to heel have yet to find out if it it rides up after a bit. Lady who supplies them is really helpful. I will keep you posted.

use a harness and a halti, (a seperate lead for each), but it means when my dog (15 months & exitable) trys to jump at people to greet them I can controll his head with the halti and the 'lunge' with the harness without it chocking him. He's a big boy (11+ stone) and this combination gives me great controll, along with distraction/reward with treats

What I was going to suggest..if you have duel control , it may relax you as well, and in you being a bit more relaxed, it will pass onto him.

Have to say...the Dogmatic is my favorite

> What I was going to suggest..if you have duel control , it may relax you as well, and in you being a bit more relaxed, it will pass onto him.
>

That is true. I am so much more relaxed & confident using the halti & harness, the dog really does know that I feel I'm in controll and responds to how I feel. I started using the combination after he nearly pulled me over, that really made me nervous and I just couldn't convince him to pay attention to me while I was feeling like that. I gave the harness and halti a try and was amazed at how much better I felt, Buster still will ocasionally get exited and pull, but I can conroll him now, partly due to the harness & halti and partly because they make me feel confident.

You have written:

" I practice walking with him constantly (stopping if he pulls, changing direction etc etc, walking with chicken in hand.. you name it, we do it) and he does improve about 15 mins into the walk but he's always well over excited and this is when he snaps the most."

I am not a big fan of halties or other aids but sound old-fashoined lead-training.
I have noticed you seem to use your walkies-time to train your dog in what you are writing above?

May I suggest you do separate training units of no more than 10 minutes each.
This way you can concentrate on one thing only: lead control and put all your
efforts - mental and physical - into the 10 minutes slot. You will find it will take
less out of you and strain you not as much compared to a half hour or longer walk.

Take control before you leave the house. Make your dog come and sit to be hooked up.
Make him wait until you've put your coat and hat on. Pick up the lead and only then ask
him to come to you. Ask him to sit again, open the door, step out and then ask your dog
to go through the door. Make sure you have a long training lead, at least 9 feet in length.
Walk the dog on 6 feet of the lead and keep 3 lead in reserve so when he pulls or speeds
up you can correct AND "cut the tie" by letting go of the tension of the 6 feet connecting
him to you whilst keeping control by hanging on to the remaining 3 feet. This should work
in your favour as an attention getter so once he reacts to your cutting the tie you assemble
the lead again by walking way or in a different direction.
Confuse him by becoming unpredictable. Don't wait until he decides where to got and and
what speed or who to jump up to. Don't keep walking straight. If you're walking down a path
or follow the direction along a field he knows what's up. Take that pre-view knowledge away
from him and "do YOUR thing".

Good luck!

> I am not a big fan of halties or other aids but sound old-fashoined lead-training.
>

That is great for general lead walking, but if you have a dog that flails/lunges it's head around out of exitement or agression (even if it isn't pulling on the lead) then a halti allows you to control the dogs head and thus set the dog up for sucess, making the reward-based training so much easier.
I don't use a halti for stopping my dog from pulling I use it to keep him under controll when meeting people (he gets exited), granted I could didtch the halti and teach him to stay calm and well mannered by working within his limits - only allowing him to be apporached by people if he stays calm, BUT when you are walking a dog in public you can't expect perfect strangers (and thier dogs) to keep away from you untill your dog is calm (and actively avoiding people could give the wrong impression to some dogs, esp. guarding breeds), so the halti provides a 'safety net' untill the dog has learnt the lesson. As we all know the more a dog does a certain behaviour the harder it is to stop them from doing it, the halti gives acess to stopping habbit-forming lunges while verbal commands and conditioned respones are strengthened. I've found it to be a wonderfull tool that supports/aids reward-based training (rather than replaces it). :)

True enough but I have had clever cloggs who managed to slip out of the halti, they had discovered that
NOT pulling will ease the tension and they then manouvered backwards. SMART DOGS! And yes, the Halti
was properly fitted.

If a dog behaves the way you described below then I personally wouldn't present him to the public until
the manners are acceptable. It would be short training sessions only, ideally with the help of a few volun-
teers.

As there are usually other underlying reasons for the dog to display such a behaviour (e.g. feed too high
in energy/protein or other social skill issues) and such a behaviour is usually accompanied by other unde-
sired - often unnoticed or rather tolerated - behaviours, a Halti can only help in one particular situation,
e.g. walking on the lead.

I wasn't trying to say that the only way forward is with a halti, it's just that I have no problem with using anything that will help me with training whilst keeping 100% controll of my dog - the halti works for me & my dog so I am happy using it and recomending it :)

>If a dog behaves the way you described below then I personally wouldn't present him to the public until
>the manners are acceptable. It would be short training sessions only, ideally with the help of a few volun-teers.

How do you get a guarding breed to greet strangers calmly while also thinking they are friends, without ever taking the dog out in public??
Socialisation is so important with guarding breeds, my Mastiff thinks (thanks to a lot of effort building up a positive association) that strangers are brill, he wants to kiss them, not kill them. I appreciate that the way in which he tries to greet people is not acceptable and he needs to learn to greet people calmly but keeping him away from the public is not the way to teach him this and also would risk loosing that positive association he has with strangers.

I do take offence at your implication of my dog having 'underlying issues', he is on a LOW protein diet due to his breed, I can walk him on a slack lead through groups of screaming children, past dogs that are snapping and growling at him without him bothering atall, his behaviour on a lead is better than most dogs apart from the fact he loves people and gets a bit exited. He does not bark/whine/get upset when left he doesn't bat an eyelid at fireworks, he has no food/resource/territory guarding problems, in fact he has never growled (other than in play) in his entire life, the only destructive thing he has ever done is rip up an Argos catologue. Overall the only problem I have with him is his exitement on greeting peole - that is a damn site better than most dogs and at only 15months old (very much in the 'kevin' stage) I think most would agree I'm doing a very good job.

I am still very suprised that you imply I should keep my dog away from the public untill he can behave - but then again a dog wagging his bum & tail and trying to lick people is the height of irresponsibility!

> True enough but I have had clever cloggs who managed to slip out of the halti, they had discovered that
> NOT pulling will ease the tension and they then manouvered backwards. SMART DOGS! And yes, the Halti
> was properly fitted.

In such a case for safties sake you would also use a halti link to stop them from getting loose.

> a Halti can only help in one particular situation,
> e.g. walking on the lead.

A halti allows you to controll your dog while it is on the lead and subsequently any behaviour that happens while the dog is on the lead not just walking.

I'll just add that although I keep raving about the 'halti' I do so because that is what I use (and haven't used any other makes), I'm sure the same effects (head controll/steering) are attainable with most headcollars. I just wanted to point that out - I am not 'dissing' any of the other makes recomended by other people, I just happen to use the 'halti' :)

im with mastifflover here. i have an 11month old boisterous puppy, who has been going to obedience training since 12 weeks old. he walks beautifully 95% of the time, slack lead, trotting by my side HOWEVER, he is very dog focused and easily distracted, and if he meets one when out he gets excited and when going to greet it, will pull out of excitement to say hello, at this point he is far stronger than me and i cant take the risk of not being able to pull him back. before anyone says anything, i am trying very hard to correct this behaviour, and am working on him greeting dogs in a more calm manner, and he is improving, but i have never owned a dog who loves other dogs so much, its amazing, he adores them all, regardless of whether they like him or not!
i use the dogmatic, and find it very good.

> but i have never owned a dog who loves other dogs so much, its amazing, he adores them all, regardless of whether they like him or not!

ahh bless him :)

Sure. All I am saying is that when e.g. "aggression" or aggressive behaviour is suggested for
the dog misbehaving on the lead that the source of the problem should be addressed, not
just the symptoms.

I just can't help thinking "what comes next"? Horses are lead on a halter, some can be controlled
only with a bridle/bite on. Bulls are lead on a halter, some can be controlled with a ring through
their noses. I feel the more "aides" there are available the bigger the problem gets.

Thank you so much for your post Harley.  I doing a search on pulling etc as my 9 month old male GR pulls like crazy and nothing we were doing was working.  I didn't like the idea of the Halti as it appeared to pull the dog's head to one side but went onto the Canny site as you suggested.  We got one (1st was too big but they exchanged it with no fuss) and now my husband can walk the dog without coming back with one arm longer than the other!  He tried to paw it off to start with and obviously wasn't entirely happy with it on, but got used to it so quickly and now walks without pulling at all - rather like magic.

Well loads to think about, i'm just going to have to try a few out.

If I geninually had to wait until he was perfectly behaved until he could be 'presented in public' then the two of us would be stuck in forevermore.

One behaviourist I used says that they should be perfectly calm before going out - yet the two of them excite each other to hysteria.  The minute I open the door they start bouncing up against it, shrieking, howling, barking - i'm blushing here, its awful.  I think how over excited they are is affecting him for the first part of his walk.  Any ideas on how I could calm him down?  Sadly, regardless of whether he pulls or not, he does have a tendency to snap at people and their dogs and this is one of the reasons I want a halti, for added security when he is liable to lash out.

> they should be perfectly calm before going out - yet the two of them excite each other to hysteria.

Any chance you can take them out completely separately? during which times you can work on them both to calm down a bit.  Two of my three can be wired to the moon on their first outing (most outings >sigh<) but are totally different when taken separately or at least when split up and each going with only the calmer, older bitch :)  I know it's not always practical to do this on every walk but if you could get into the habit of doing it for each of their first outings of the day it may well help. 

IMO it's somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible to get such exciteable characters focused on their owners when they're basically feeding off each others hyped up drives so working on a 1-2-1 basis with each should get them to pay more attention to you and therefore speed up training towards more manageable behaviours :) (advice I really ought to follow myself more often LOL)

regards, Teri

> The minute I open the door they start bouncing up against it, shrieking, howling, barking - i'm blushing here, its awful.&nbsp;

My small terrier used to do that too - made for a very stressful start to a walk. I now get the leads on and walk to the door and ask for a sit. Any barking, jumping or general over the top behaviour results in me dropping the lead and walking away. Once he has quietened down I ask for another sit and pick up the lead, any fuss and I drop the lead and walk away again. It took a while but he slowly got the message. If he starts to bark, pull etc once I open the door it is closed again and we start the whole procedure all over again. He is not the quickest of learners and it has taken a very long time to get to the point of him automatically sitting quietly before I open the door - so long in fact that my GR now lies down in the hall in anticipation of how long the leaving the  house procedure may take :-)

You have to be consistent with your approach - my daughter will often just put up with the fuss and Cooper knows this and will act the hooligan whilst waiting for the walk to start whereas with me now he has almost got the hang of a quiet, controlled exit (if you ignore the fact that he is so excited that his sit is a constant wiggle all over the floor :-) )

Well I know it can be done as the guy who walks my dogs when I am at work has far more success than me.  He still says that even after sitting and waiting, they nearly rip his arms off when they hit the path but if he can do it, I should be able to.  So do you think i should train them to sit and wait like good dogs together? 

And - I do take them out separately.  Even the sight of their leads sets them off, regardless of whether they are the one wearing it or not.  Poppys happy to leap around and bounce from chair to door even if she's not going out! 

> He still says that even after sitting and waiting, they nearly rip his arms off when they hit the path but if he can do it, I should be able to.

I used to refuse to put Busters leads on unless he was sitting calmly and if he pulled towards the door I would drop the leads and walk away from him (this is inside the house before we had got to the front door).
The most simplest things can often have the best results. If you consistently refuse to take a step forward while the dog is pulling, they soon learn that if they want to get anywhere they have to control thierselfs and not pull, I used to 'mark' the point at which the lead went slack with 'good walking' and then give a treat and take a step forward, if he pulled I would stand still agian (admittidly we never used to get far very quickly to start with!!!!) Now if Buster starts to walk ahead of me I say 'walking' and he'll make sure the lead is slack (I don't insist he walks next to me for 'dominant/alpha' reasons, it's just that he's so strong if he were to pull for any reason I have much less controll if my arm is allready outstretched infront of me!)
I've also found that 'less is more', meaning, by keeping my mouth shut unless praising the required behaviour I don't add to the exitement or confuse pup.

My sisters Boxer has always been a nightmare on walks, she is HYPER, the 'change direction' tactic only ended up making her more exited - she thought it was a great game!! They had given up trying to control her and just gave in to being dragged all over the place, but since seeing how nicely Buster walks on his lead (most of the time) they listened to me! Since they have been using the 'stand still' tactic she has improved dramatically, with great results after the first time.

It would be worth 'desensitising' (sp?) your dogs to thier leads, by picking up the leads throught the day and moving them to a different place/walking around with the leads, so they can stop associating the leads with walk time?
I've made a habbit of moving the dogs leads around when he was a pup, he'll look at me when I pick them up, but unless I call him for a 'walk' he wont bother.

In your situation I would take the dogs out seperatley untill you have taught them some self control, it's much easier to fucus on 1 dog at a time, rewarding the good behaviour is the best way to get accross what you want from the dog, this is hard to do with 2 of them acting clown at the same time!