This evening we had to take one of our 5 week old pups to the vets.

Earlier I was in the house and heard the big dogs and the pups all barking (unusual for them all to bark together) and a pup squealing.  OH ran out as he got his boots on first and came down the garden carrying a limp puppy dripping blood.  I laid him on the kitchen worktop and applied pressure to his head and wrapped him in towels to keep him warm.  He began to come round and started screaming, which although sounded awfull at least meant he was still with us and had some energy.  We got him to the vets who shaved his head to find the puncture wounds, gave him an injection of painkillers to shut him up (still screaming more than half an hour after we brought him into the house) and some antibiotics. 

We explained what had happened, that for some reason mum had decided that the pups had to go back inside the kennel and not stay out playing in the run and had tried to pick up the pup.  Given the size of the pups now she couldn't manage it, thus inflicting some quite deep puncture wounds on her pup.

The vet said he had never come accross a bitch trying to move pups of this age and size.  I must admit we have never come across it before either, either with this bitch or others.  The trouble is now that everytime I hear a yelp or squeal I am up and outside worrying mum is trying to pick a pup up again. 

Has anyone else come across this before and how did you prevent it happening again?  The poor little mite is feeling very sorry for himself and is a touch groggy due the painkillers (we have a breed not known for their high pain threshold!) but looks much better now mum has cleaned the blood off him.

> how did you prevent it happening again? 

I think the obvious answer is to always have some one present.  If the pups are being put out in a kennel for play keep the bitch indoors unless you can supervise.  However, if they are kennel dogs it really isn't working is it so I would move the whole lot indoors as something very much worse could happen.

I think being extra vigilant is the only answer.. it does sound very unusual but then your bitch and pups are outside and you dont know what mum might have heard in the bushes or garden, perhaps there was some sort of potential danger out there and thats what pushed her to try and move the pup.

Honestly - I wouldnt have mum and pups outside where I couldnt see them - i know plenty of people do, but I wouldnt want the worry.

>how did you prevent it happening again?

Personally I wouldn't have them outside, kennelled, unattended. If they're indoors it's so much easier to keep a watchful eye on them.

Did your OH actualy witness mum trying to move the pup?Are you sure there wasn't another reason she had him in her mouth? (assuming that's what your OH witnessed)My concern would be that she may do the same to another one,especialy if you don't know what triggered it.

Yes, mum was trying to move the pup.  We do feel somewhat to blame as mum can unbolt her kennel (which opens into a secure garden which the other dogs have access to during the day).  We do have a bolt high up that she can't reach, as a secondary lock but either she managed to jiggle the door enough to open that bolt too or we forgot to fasten it.  The puppy was just stepping out into the garden and mum was trying to get him back into the kennel/run.

She doesn't bother about the other dogs with the pups, one used to 'babysit' the pups when they were 3 weeks old and in the house and they play with one of the other dogs (supervised) for short periods, so it wasn't as if she was trying to remove the pup from the garden due to the other dogs being out.  She lets our staffie bitch sleep with her and the pups, we have to turf the staffie out when we aren't there and put her in with the others.

There really was no malice in it, it really was mum just trying to move the pup but we feel so bad and obviously need to look into making sure it never happens again.  My worry now is that she will try to move the pups around within the confines of the run, which is actually a fenced off area of the garden and quite big, and damage one of the others, or cause more injuries to the already injured one.

We do have cctv in the kennel and a baby monitor for sound so we can keep a good eye on the pups, but obviously we do have to sleep!  I guess it is just going to be a case of being hyper vigilant for the next couple of weeks.

Does the bitch WANT to be with the pups all the time now? I know several posters on this thread here disagree with me, but in my breed, from about 4 weeks onwards the bitch will absolutely hate being with the pups constantly and indeed from 5 weeks at latest my bitches will only go into their pups twice a day -and even that is under protest. By then they do all they can to get away from their pups, and this is indeed common in the breed. (Was the norm for all bitches of the breeder who has had more litters of this breed than anyone else in the UK.) Hence my pups are kenneled outside from then but mum does not stay with them and is never unsupervised with them as she will only be with them for a few minutes a time.

I would agree that whilst a bitch should have access when she wants she should also be able to escape when ever she wishes, certainly by this age.
I don't think CCTV would allow you to react to a situation in time to prevent any injury.

Does the bitch WANT to be with the pups all the time now?

Usually she has had enough of pups by the time they are 4 weeks old, only sleeping with them but staying away from them all day.  This time, however, we let her out into the garden with access to the other kennel but not the pups and she goes mad to get back in to them after just half an hour or so.  We don't know what it is about this litter that she finds so appealing, but she doesn't seem to want to be apart from them for long.  We may have to bring the pups into the house without mum as out of sight does seem out of mind with her.  We could then take them up to kennels two or three times a day for feeds and playtime with mum and the others.

Can she not come into the house too?

My experience is similar to Marianne's, my girls will only visit briefly with their pups at this age and prefer not to spend too much time with them until they reach about 10 weeks of age.

Sorry to hear about your pup- someone I know recently lost a pup in similar circumstances so you need to be extra vigilant.
Angela

I'm gobsmacked like yourself and the others that this would happen, I hope that the little pup will soon be recovered, poor little man, if the mother was caught on CCTV doing this I guess all we can say is that she had very bad judgement that day and picked up the pup awkwardly, how you prevent it again, I have no idea, and why she picked him up is something you will have to second guess.

I like a litter in the home like many others, but I guess that is down to personal preference and breed and room, CCTV will not be the same as being there as the dogs/pups do not know you are watching and will act differently as to when you are there in person a monitor does not help you to pick up social signals and interactions or if your girl is worried or upset by something, it does not pre-empt what the eye and instinct can tell you whilst watching in person, it just isn't the same, a lot gets lost in-between, so I would not rely on that for anything other than security.

If you are worried about your 5 week pup (I think I would be in case his puncture wounds get hurt) especially on a night when no-one will be watching would it be worth bringing him in with another pup or two and crated or put in a room with a dog gate with a couple of littermates that way he is safe and you can sleep soundly, as the mother can 'escape' and get to the pups it would be better to remove the pup/s from harm instead.

I hope he is recovered soon, and well done for giving him the correct treatment when found after the accident, lucky you were there. :-)

I thought dams were extra carefuol when picking up pups, using their scruff?
Why would she use the actual head?

I reckon she might have been scared as thats all I can think of if she has never done it before, i think some indoors time would be nice tho for her and the pups, time to socialise and be warm and cosy with a cuddle on the sofa, espicially now its getting chilly, nothing better then being in doors, warm,  with puppies to look after and play with and Im saying this when I have never bred a litter lol :)

I have never seen a bitch pick up a pup by its scruff - always they put their jaws around the pups neck holding the head inside their mouth.

Is it cats that use the scruff then?
Or is it myth?
Ive never bred you see so just going on what Ive been told or learnt :)

One of my bitches, who was a superb mum and loved her pups like mad, used to want to stop them from racing about in the garden. She used to grab them by the head to try to get control of the situtation!  To be honest it is quite a shepherd behaviour to want to herd and stop racing about but I was worried a pup would get hurt so I always supervised the garden play, and kept my girl sitting with me.  If the pups were in a smaller area where they couldn't "rampage" she was absolutely fine and they were in the house at night or if the weather wasnt very nice.  This only started when the pups were about 6 weeks old onwards, when they really go wild!  Bless her, she was trying to be vigilant and a good mum but was a touch overenthusiastic!  Her daughter was also a good mum but not quite as bothered about the pups running wild so we never had the issue with her, all different aren't they?

when I let my litters play in the garden I always put mum in give her a bit of piece, whch she was quite happy to do , I also worried when she was out in the garden with them that she woud knock them over as she tended to run around a bit manic ,never saw her try t pick them up though .

wondering if she heard fireworks which spooked her and she was trying to protect them.

I've never seen my bitches pick up a pup by the scruff, or even try to.  By the neck when they were really tiny, but only to bring the pup closer in the nest.  They've never wanted to move them to a different place.

>Is it cats that use the scruff then?

I have never seen cats pick up kittens by the scruff either, they also pick young kittens up by the neck or head, the kitten goes completely limp at this point - almost gave me heart failure the first time I saw it

Seems to me the bitch must have been really stressed if she wanted to move pups of this age?

My last litter one of my pups worked it's way out of the whelping box ( which was surrounded by the freedom playpen)   she picked it up by the scruff and put him back him.  She did slightly mark one side of the neck but no puncture etc.

Quick update on Little Blue.  He is doing just fine, wounds have scabbed over and he is taking his antibiotics.  He still looks very odd with his shaved paches on his head but that will soon grow back, and the swelling has gone down.

Our dogs are a gundog breed and kenneled outside for the majority of the time.  Mum comes indoors in the last couple of weeks of pregnancy and stays indoors till pups are 4 weeks old, roughly.  As large dogs and with litters of twelve we find it easier for mum and pups to go into the kennels then and have constant access to a large outdoor area.  We believe that Mum may have been spooked by the horses in the field who were looking through the hedge at the dogs, as they often do, but it was the first time the pups had been there when the horses were out.

We have brought the pups indoors (although they hate it!) and just take them out to mum overnight when they all snuggle up together, have a feed and a sleep.  The pups seem to be missing our other dogs however, especially our staffy who they love to play with, crying through the door when they see her outside.  Bless!

Keeping the pups separate isn't ideal at the moment but we have to make sure that Mum gets a good break from the pups and doesn't get stressed by the horses or whatever it was that scared her.  Actually there is a lot of activity on the farm too at the moment and it may have been the large amount of farm traffic going down the drive that scared her too.

Thanks for all your suggestions and comments, much appreciated!

PS  The first time I saw a pup being carried by mum with its head in her mouth I couldn't believe it either, but this is how she moves the pups around, even in the whelping box.