Hello

I've got a 5 month old Golden Retriever bitch whom I'm feeding on Arden Grange Puppy. My breeder who's got her sister and brother told me that she lacked body compared to hers. She feeds them the same food but also tripe on top. Being a vegetarian myself, I feel really uncomfortable having fresh meat in the house and the smell of tripe is enough to make me heave! So I've not followed her advice and now I can see a difference between her dogs and mine... She's a show bitch so I really want her to look her best. Do you find that you need to give other stuff on top of the dry food to your puppies? If so, what?

Thanks for your help

Gaelle

What do you mean, she lacks body? Is your girl simply lighter, or are they generally in a better and more robust condition?

Not sure really. She just looks a bit lighter and lankier.

how much on lead excersise is she getting.. sometimes over excersising can produce growth spurts, making a youngster look long legged and rangy.. It may be that she is burning more calories than she is taking in..

Frozen Tripe from PAH (prize choice) is freeflow,, it can be tipped directly into bowl from the freezer, so you dont need to touch it.. and the smell is not as bad while still frozen.. just pour a little warm water over it before giving down to her..

Ok, maybe she does exercise too much... Hard to stop her! I'll keep that in mind though and try and reduce her activity level. It will probably be easier with the bad weather starting to settle!... Didn't think it could make such a difference. So you would actually RECOMMEND tripe though?

Here's a link to a picture of Tess at 5 months.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t40/gaellekonak/Tessa/DSC_8960.jpg

Here's a picture of her sister a few weeks earlier

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t40/gaellekonak/Tessa/Connie280908Stand.jpg

Can you see what she means?

Tripe in itself is not high in calories.. but it does have a synegistic effect... it helps the body absorb more nutrients from food .. yes.. personally I would recommend it.. but its down to yourself.. your breeder has recommended it.. I would assume (perhaps wrongly) that she would also have giving you some guidance on excersise with your pup too... She will want the best from her pups and will be happy to guide you too..

It should be easy enough to reduce her lead walking surely.. you dont need to reduce her indoor/garden activity.. just dont play ball or throw things for her.. allow her to find her own pace.. ...

If she does have excess energy.. try some simple training.. and drain the brain.. sit. stay. down. etc.. all are mentally tiring..  excersise is actually a stimulant. .. ;-)

wow.. they are very different.. but that also happens in a litter.. but yes.. I do see what you mean.. your girl looks slightly longer cast also.. which makes her look leaner..

Try the tripe.. dampen a facecloth and cover you nose.. if the smell is really too bad for you...

Goldens are not my breed.. We have good breeders on here, who will be on later.. I am sure they will help guide you...

If you feel your breeder is giving you good advice.. Please take it.. its amazing the difference of two sister raised differently..

Ok, will definitely reduce walks (they're not so much on the lead actually, more running around in woods). I knew I had to keep it low but didn't realize how low that was, I think. I guess I'm just used to exercising my other adult dog so much. I feel bad now! And I might give the tripe a go too... Yuk! God, I really must love these dogs!

At that young age.. most definately NO running around in the woods.. outside the house.. short lead walks only .. around 20mins per day for the time being.. indoors.and in the garden she can play...

The restriction of excersise, is not just to work on joint damage limitation.. the body needs time to grow and mature.. the more excersise, the more calories used.. but in the wrong way.. if the body is not getting the calories required.. it will claim nourishment from reserves.. ie: fat.. and if there is little or not fat to fall back on.. the nourishment from good food will not make its way to the rest of the body.. and at this crucial growth stage , your girls body has nothing to fall back on..

Its not a case of one size fits all. you need to try and adjust, and find the balance which is right for her.. but everything you lose, will take longer to get back..

Retrievers aren't my breed, but I would have thought the sister looked slightly heavy if anything, though I'm sure the breeder knows better.

Oh dear God! I feel awful now! :(

For me.. the sister looks pretty much how I would expect her too look...

Oh.. dont feel awful.. .. thats what we are all here for.. :-)

Advice is free.. and given freely... its how everybody learns..

you will get conflicting advice from different people.. thats the way of life.. my advice.. listen to your breeder.. I would say she has given you pretty good advice.. dont ignore her ;-)

I can see that the sister looks a bit more plump, but your girl also seems longer in body.  But pictures of puppies can be decieving, even within a couple weeks.  It is better to judge, what they look like with pics of the same time.  But Sporting Dogs, arent really my thing.  I know what is pleasing to my eye, but thats about it. 

Sometimes though, you get completely different looks in a litter.  My Cher, has way more body than her brother Sunny.  Sunny looks like what I would expect a 6 month to be, instead of a dog over 2!

I would use the tripe.  Also, if you can get VENTURE over there, that would be worth a try too.  Its a powder that goes on the food, that helps them absorb all the nutrients.  Works best if the food is soaked in water with the powder on. 

Have you checked that you are feeding her the right amounts of food? I am sure you are but just wanted to check that you have increased her food as she gets older and haven't forgotten to do that. Hope that doesn't come over the wrong way but I do know someone, a very caring owner, who carried on feeding their pup the same amount of food that they gave her when they first brought her home as that was the amount she was told to feed by the breeder. Just a thought :)

i too am vegetarian and what i do is buy the block of tripe from PAH, i put it into his bowl in the morning and leave it on worktop to thaw (he comes to work with me so no chance of stealing it) and when i get home at night its thawed, i add a few biscuits to it and quickly mix it together. it honestly doesnt smell too bad, and i usually cant bear meat either. i occ get my boyfriend to cook him some mince as a treat!

Oh thank you everybody, I will definitely start giving them tripe, starting tonight! And I will also stop the walks in the woods and all that (even though it's going to be hard for me - I love them!) and go back to minimum lead walk. I think she's going to find it hard though because she's so full of energy. But I've been feeling so terrible all last night thinking I'd been doing the wrong thing with her that I am willing to do anything to put it right again.
Thank you all for your advice,

Gaelle

> And I will also stop the walks in the woods and all that (even though it's going to be hard for me - I love them!)

You don't need to stop going to the woods with your adult dog, just leave the pup at home for those walks :)

I won't reinforce the reduced exercise element as I think you now understand that but it's also worth remembering that training is so much easier if you have the pup out on it's own. A bit of 1:1 time with your older dog is nice too, mine conveniently forgot all his training when our pup came!!

If you go out on the lead try and find some new experiences for her each time, even if it means going in the car or on the bus to minimise the actual walking.  A short stroll around town is great for lots of new experiences and you can always sit on a bench with a coffee whilst she is admired!!  Plan some training exercises in the garden to tire your pup out and to get her thinking.  Do you go to classes?  Even if you are showing her it's good to do the KC Good Citizens training if you can find a good trainer (APDT).  If your puppy has got used to walks with your other dog it might take a little while for her to get used to being left at home so you may need to persevere through the crying stage.  My youngster still can't bear the older dog going out without him and will howl like an orphan for ages.  He doesn't mind if we leave though... :)

Have fun, the puppy stages pass really quickly (both a good and a bad thing!!)

Thank you.

I do do all that already. I take Tess to ringcraft classes and walk her in town on the lead regularly. I was really only taking her for longer walks on weekends. But that's over now.

Tell me, where do you get your tripe from? I couldn't find any is ASDA. There isn't any PAH store near me. Any suggestions? Also, how much do you give?

Cheers

Most small pet shops have a freezer in the back of shop.. and store a limited amount.. usually comes in 1lb blocks.. this is not the freeflow type that you get in PAH so will have to be defrosted before use.. If I need to use this type, I split a whole pack between 2 meals for the age of you girl.. mix in with her normal dry food with a little warm water..

Going to buck the trend here... but her overall long term health is more important than winning prizes in the ring.

That being so, personally if i had to pick a pup purely based on weight id pick yours and not her sister. Yours is not thin or skinny in any way and trying to make her fat (and at her age it will be nothing else, you cant put muscle onto a frame that doesnt exist yet) is not to my mind, the right thing to do.

I think her sister does look heavy and for a growing pup i dont think thats right and its not good for them either. Shes got plenty of time to mature and fill out as an adult which is a long way off yet.

I would as otherse have said though, limit hurtling around in the woods though i wouldnt entirely cut it out at the risk of affecting her socialisation and training.

I'd agree  ;)

I can't help thinking that a 5 month old pup should look exactly like a 5 month old pup -  not a finished adult ;) 

If she carries too much weight for her growing bones that will be as bad for her as being too light ;)   Surely it's better for her to grow steadily rather than getting too big too soon?

There's a big difference between a fat dog and a well muscled dog and I know which I'd prefer to be aiming for ;)

But then I have Bedlingtons, terriers need to be well muscled and in hard condition to show, and the pup is the same.  I think keeping the right weight on a pup is harder than with an adult, often the roly-poly puppy does look more attractive and balanced, but it's an illusion created by fat!

Gaelle there's a lot of us dog owners who don't like meat.But when bringing our little carnivore's into our homes,the yuck factor had to be thrown out the window :-D
You should see a positive difference when you start feeding your girl real food,particularly meat,as i don't think any living creature can properly thrive on a processed packaged diet. And the more you handle meat and the more you see your dogs go crazy for it the easier it will get.

Oh thank you all, that's all very interesting! I never thought Tess looked too "thin" or anything before I was told and compared with another pup. She doesn't feel thin and I find her rather well-balanced for her age. I suppose it does depend on every pup, just like children! But I'm taking all your advice on board, cutting down on the exercising and introducing meat on top of her dry food.
Thank you again!

Still struggling to FIND tripe though!

You can buy tripe and raw meats online and get it delivered (depending on where you live), but usually you would need to buy a fairly large quantity. If you have the freezer space it may be worth doing.

For you, I'd get the freeflow tripe. For the handful you would throw on her food it will thaw quickly so you won't have to look at it very long. Plus you only use what you need. I used to buy it when my boy ate kibble just to make the food more interesting. PAH sell it as do Jollys (?sp). Phone around and ask, I've found freeflow tripe in every PAH I've been to up here.

Hi,

I think it is much healthier for a pup to be on the lean side when growning rather than the other way.  To me your pup looks in fab condition, Arden grange is a really good food that is nutritionally dense - I really wouldn't be worrying about trying to put weight on her now, let her shape develop naturally.

As far as the exercising in the woods goes, there is absolutely no reason why you should stop doing this altogether.  You do need to limit exercise when they are young especially with breeds like goldies but certainly shouldn't stop them having any free running.  A good guide is five mins of exercise per month of age, so at the minute you could give her 25 mins in the woods.  It is far better for her to have 25 mins of free running than 25 mins of road walking.  In the woods the surface will be softer and she can dictate the pace, if she wants to have a rest and stop to sniff then she can do so.  It will also tire her out more mentally in the woods as lots of different smells and trails to follow.  Maybe do a couple of shorter ten minute road walks and give her a free run in the woods aswell :-)

> Do you find that you need to give other stuff on top of the dry food to your puppies? If so, what?
>
> Thanks for your help
>

Nope the right amount of AG has mine in fine condition, though I do give treats (leftovers etc) when I have them, and in the past have given pet meat including tripe, but never found any difference in their condition whichever way I fed them.

> Here's a link to a picture of Tess at 5 months.

> Here's a picture of her sister a few weeks earlier

I would expect a four month old pup to look chunkier than one at five months and also of course they may just be different in shape.

You really would need to see them together and feel the body to say if they had different amounts.

If it helps, my GR bitch was very skinny and leggy. She was also very active and ran willy-nilly everywhere - she just doesn't do slow. She just blossomed around 18 months old and really filled out. She's a slow maturer, no problem there. Now at the yearling level we're placing in champ shows. She has good hip scores and no puppy fat to lose. She's 32.5 Kg of trim muscle, a real athlete - vert fast, very fit and can fly over fences and hedges while carrying dummies or rabbits. She's good (and eats AG for brekkie)

I'm not stalking you Lori, honest... LOL

But it's goo dto hear your pup was a slow maturer as I feel the same with Poppy really, she looks quite immature compared to younger pups in the ring, so I wonder if the lines are slow maturing? I shoudl ask, but I already emailed Margaret an essay!

Yes, her sire was a slow maturer. :)

Another vote here for tripe!  Our pup was always the gangliest, leggy little thing.  ONce she got to about 9 months we started introducing the tripe, and she has matured nicely over the last few months and has lovely muscle tone and a better body shape overall, though she is still on the lean side which I think is far preferable.

I am vegetarian and all my dogs are fed raw meat.  I can cope with Prize Choice meat, Landywoods and TPMS I found a bit gross, but Prize Choice is ok.  Mine also get loads of bones, I use disposable gloves if I have to touch anything, not because of any infection, just me being a poof :-)

My boy has been very slow to mature and also putting weight on him was a nightmare. I did compare him to his litter brother who the breeder kept and others who were in the ring of the same age.
He wasn't over exercised, though he was a very fussy eater and i just couldn't get him to put weight on.

He is just starting to look really good after i have taken him out of the ring to try and body him up. He is now on the raw food diet alone and this makes a huge difference. I buy bones from the butcher and order all the frozen food from an online company based in the south.

We are starting to do more road walking and when i can find some more money we will be back in hydrotherapy to strengthen his front end up.

The breeder saw him the other day and said that he looks really good and very much like his grandfather who is a champ. Gave me a little bit of hope that we may start getting somewhere with him.
The main thing though is that he is healthy..

Thank you

Well started giving her tripe... Oh dear oh dear, the smell! I bought the PAH frozen packs and they are indeed very easy to use. I am also adding a little bit of Aloe Vera drink (1 Tsp) in the mix as a friend of mine absolutely swears by it for her horses coats and overall health. Let's wait and see now. She is loving it even though it has been making her fart! -oh dear, tripe smelling farts!...

Can I just add my bit and say that Tess looks pretty much like a normal 5 month GR puppy to me - maybe a bit slim (which I think you'll now solve with cutting back a bit on the exercise) but nothing unusual for a bitch puppy.

Thank you Zizza.
Well she has definitely changed now, a combination of more food, tripe, less exercise and just normal puppy growth! Here's a recent picture. She's slightly fat to me now, her ribs can't be felt unless you prod them, so I'm reducing the dry food. I am also now moving her on to Adult AG.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t40/gaellekonak/miminov.jpg

What a difference in less than a month! She looks more like what you would see in the show ring now.
One of ours looked a bit fat to me at that age but she is now a year and a half and seems slimmer.

Hi Gaelle
Your pup looks fine to me,she is a lovely colour.
My young golden is only just starting to fill out nicely now at nearly 2yrs old,she is very very active. I worried for a while because i couldnt get weight on her how ever much i tried, but she is looking good now,she is also on AG and its great food.

Gaelle i think that she looks very good as she is right now, though i'm only going on the picture not what i think she would feel like if i put my hands over her..

she looks lovely and healthy. Generally if your dog is a 'show type' they are encouraged to be more chunky and have more body... but many people just make them overweight.. which can lead to joint problems..
(dont mean to rant but usually these are the ones getting 1st place at shows)

Dont over exersise but dont over feed either, its good to get the balance right. My girls do spend about 10 minutes off lead at 5 months (how else are they supposed to socialise and get used to the world) and a few mins walk on lead home... this is the method i use and this has resulted in healthy, active dogs in the long term.

.. from the most recent picture I would say she looks perfect... but i think any more weight and she will become fat.. at 5 months you dont want to put any unnessasary weight onto the joints (but you want enough food to go into good bones)

its a difficalt balance but you'll get there

Thank you

I think she is slightly on the chubby side now so I'm definitely cutting down on food. She looks a bit strange at the moment, with long legs and wobbly body! We went to her first show last sunday but she didn't get placed even though I thought she'd behaved quite well! Mind you it was not a group show, it was a mix of different breeds and some definitely looked better and more "finished" at the same age! I think she's going to be a slow-maturer and comparing pictures with my boy at her age, I realize that she looks much more puppy-ish than he used to. I'm in no rush but really hope she's going to blossom...