Gosh my pedigree Pomeranian's and Spanish must go against the grain then.  My eldest Spanish is 15 and fit and well and only been to the vets for one problem in her lifetime.  The Pomeranian's ones 16, the others over 10 and they've never ever had to go to the vets with illness, nor have the ones that my parents have owned in the last 29 years!

My pug is never never away from the vets, she has every ailment going, blindness (since 7 years old), caused by a hereditary defect, been deaf for years also, has recurring ear infections, has a luxating patella in one of her elbows which slips out, a hernia, arthritis, can't exercise in the slightest heat without being in distress, collapsed palette so can't breath when lying down without raising her head into the air.

She came from a breeder who shows and has bred champions, the after care I got was useless, she just wasn't interested. All she was interested in was producing another champion.

I don't think my case is much of an example for buying a pedigree dog from a reputable breeder do you. My sister got her springer X lab about the same time and this only goes to highlight the differences. My brother in law used to tease me, pedigree versus crossbreed and he has been proved right.

I have to go, to the vets yet again as now she has green mucus coming from her nose and is sneezing all over the place.

Liz

> I don't think my case is much of an example for buying a pedigree dog from a reputable breeder do you.

She doesn't sound like a very responsible breeder though,huge difference :) Reputable just means they have a reputation,a responsible breeder on the other hand acts responsibly.No one has said that a breeder that shows is automaticly a responsible one.

I have a friend with a Mutt,he has at least 3 breeds crossed in there and has epilepsy,dog aggression(despite extensive socialization and lives with other dogs) and a hard time understanding house training.He's not exactly a good example that crossbreeds are healthier ;) I don't think generalising either way is a very good idea,especialy basing it on just one example.I'm sure there are as many healthy crossbreeds as there are pedigrees,we all base our assumptions on our own experiences though.

> I don't think my case is much of an example for buying a pedigree dog from a reputable breeder do you.

How is the health of your pedigrees that you breed from? Surely that is good? 

> I don't think my case is much of an example for buying a pedigree dog from a reputable breeder do you. My sister got her springer X lab about the same time and this only goes to highlight the differences. My brother in law used to tease me, pedigree versus crossbreed and he has been proved right.

I had 2 mutts, they were litter mates, the male had dog-agression but health-wise was never ill a day in his whole life, his sister had a problem with her pancreas which meant she had to have a strict diet and we had to be vigilant for monitoring the colour of her poop - if it got lighter and we didn't get her to the vet ASAP it could have risked her life, as she got older she was crippled by arthritis.

All dogs can have health problems, those dogs at the bigest risk for inherited conditions are those not bred responsibly, weather they are purebred, cross-bred, or the 'good old fashioned mutt'.

>She came from a breeder who shows and has bred champions, the after care I got was useless, she just wasn't interested. All she was interested in was producing another champion.

This is not a responsible breeder and if you had got a cross-breed from this woman you would most likely have had the same problems.

ETA, also the bitch we had with the pancreas problems also needed to be watched for her drinkning habbits - the slightest increase/decrease in what she drank she had to go to the vet.

She came from a breeder who shows and has bred champions, the after care I got was useless, she just wasn't interested. All she was interested in was producing another champion.

I still hear from owners of my dogs from over 7 years ago.  Actually I had someone who bought a dog off me 13 years ago and he's still alive wanting another dog last year.  I have to admit I didn't hear from her about 2 years after I sold her the original dog but since she's had the other one off me I hear from her every month almost.

Think you just went to the wrong breeder myself! 

As this post proves and many others before it just as many crossbreeds have been owned with illnesses.

> How is the health of your pedigrees that you breed from? Surely that is good?

That's a very good point.

Liz R - if your pedigree dogs are not healthy, then surely you can't be using them to breed your crosses from? And if they are healthy, then surely that goes to show that not all pedigrees are disease ridden wrecks?

> My brother in law used to tease me, pedigree versus crossbreed and he has been proved right

If every genuinely reputable breeder got a penny for each time they've heard that phrase we'd be living the rest of our lives in comfort.  It's a bog-standard BYBs catchphrase along with 'hybrid vigour' and kerching!

>How is the health of your pedigrees that you breed from? Surely that is good? 

Yes it is thank goodness, I wanted a non shedding dog that was as normal dog shape as possible, ie not a squashed up face, not huge protuberant eyes, a dog that could run and play as a dog should be able to. A dog that wasn't renowned for inherited health problems and importantly had a nice temperament.

>If your pedigree dogs are not healthy, then surely you can't be using them to breed your crosses from? And if they are healthy, then surely that goes to show that not all pedigrees are disease ridden wrecks?

I haven't been able to breed from my pug and didn't want to after realising how she was unsuited to almost any from of exercise and how ill was all the time. Originally I did want to breed from her though. I'm not saying all pedigree dogs are disease ridden wrecks. My bichons are fine and I do breed bichon litters, it's just sometimes I like a change and a 1st cross mating is well known to be a healthy mating.

There was a programme on radio 4 a while ago that I was listening to extolling the hybrid vigour of the results of mixed race matings in the human race. How the resulting offspring were healthier, stronger and cleverer than the offspring of like to like matings as in white person to white person. That is why many of the sports players, runners, swimmers footballers etc are mixed race.

Liz
R

> My pug is never never away from the vets, she has every ailment going, blindness (since 7 years old), caused by a hereditary defect, been deaf for years also, has recurring ear infections, has a luxating patella in one of her elbows which slips out, a hernia, arthritis, can't exercise in the slightest heat without being in distress, collapsed palette so can't breath when lying down without raising her head into the air

i am very sorry about your pugs health but clearly this dog was not bought from a good breeder- for one think there appears to have been no health testing done.

and again its one example, not exactly a thorough sample.

>i am very sorry about your pugs health but clearly this dog was not bought from a good breeder- for one think there appears to have been no health testing done.

and again its one example, not exactly a thorough sample.

Thanks, I don't know if there were health tests available then it was 13 years ago when I bought her, but I always stop and talk to people who I see when I am out if they have a pug, you don't see many of them about where I live so I make a point of chatting with them.  Sadly the last two I spoke to which was only in the last couple of months have both got bad health issues, both losing their sight at a relatively young age. They were both young dogs and their owners were obviously upset. It's very sad, they are charming little characters.
Liz

My friend & I were in PAH the other day & saw a young girl carrying a lovely puppy in a basket, we asked her what breed and she proudly told us a "cavapoo" - cross between a Cavalier and a Poodle. God only knows where she got it from and I dread to think of the health problems that it may end up with :-(

To the OP: I would definitely echo what others have said & go along to Discover Dogs - its a great way to learn more about the different breeds and the owners of these dogs will be on hand to tell you all the good and bad traits of the breeds.

My Brother in law recently bought a 'Victorian' Bulldog **ROLLEYES** He had his heart set on this 'healthier' crossbreed.

They took the puppy home at 6 weeks..he shouldnt have left his breeder, he couldnt feed properly. The breeder had him in a barn with his litter mates and another older litter. He weighed 1.4kg!!!! He spent the first couple of weeks in and out of the vets having treatment for dehydration and diarrhoea and when he was at home he was having 24hr care.

He paid £850 for this puppy!!!..and spent at least another £400 getting him well! He is doing better now and thriving but may never reach his full potential in size.

How can anyone say crossbreeds are healthier? When i was a vet nurse...more than half of the dogs treated were crossbreeds.

Yes it is thank goodness, I wanted a non shedding dog that was as normal dog shape as possible, ie not a squashed up face, not huge protuberant eyes, a dog that could run and play as a dog should be able to. A dog that wasn't renowned for inherited health problems and importantly had a nice temperament.

Sounds like my poodles!

There was a programme on radio 4 a while ago that I was listening to extolling the hybrid vigour of the results of mixed race matings in the human race. How the resulting offspring were healthier, stronger and cleverer than the offspring of like to like matings as in white person to white person. That is why many of the sports players, runners, swimmers footballers etc are mixed race.

No, it has been scientifically proven that there is no difference in the muscle fibres of whites and other cultures.  In fact, europeans may even have a very slight genetic advantage. HOWEVER with athletics NURTURE wins over NATURE in the vast majority of cases.  Look at the Jamaican training regime and attitude to sport for example!  The Ethiopians generally walk miles every day, so are obvious good distance runners.  People of mixed race, and from developing cultures, are generally better at things than Europeans because they have the will and determination to succeed and make life better for themselves, their family and community.

>There was a programme on radio 4 a while ago that I was listening to extolling the hybrid vigour of the results of mixed race matings in the human race. How the resulting offspring were healthier, stronger and cleverer than the offspring of like to like matings as in white person to white person. That is why many of the sports players, runners, swimmers footballers etc are mixed race.

I'd very much like to read the transcript of that.  Can you tell me which programme it was and when it was aired so that I can find it please?

I'm always suspicious of people who talk about 'Hybrid Vigour' in regards to members of the same species, 'Hybrid' refers to the results of matings between two different species and usually they are infertile - so that's a dead end as far as evolution is concerned!

> Yes it is thank goodness, I wanted a non shedding dog that was as normal dog shape as possible, ie not a squashed up face, not huge protuberant eyes, a dog that could run and play as a dog should be able to. A dog that wasn't renowned for inherited health problems and importantly had a nice temperament.
>
> Sounds like my poodles!

Or our wheaten terriers. Non-shedding, with great personalities. Look sort of like what you'd get if you asked a five year old to draw a dog!

> That is why many of the sports players, runners, swimmers footballers etc are mixed race.

I think I have heard it all now.

>I wanted a non shedding dog that was as normal dog shape as possible

and you have found it in your Bichons so why bother crossing them?
If you fancy a change from your Bichons why not have a Poodle?  Why would you cross them when each is a perfectly good breed in itself?  A first cross mating is no healthier than the parents and you won't have a clue which one they will resemble.

> I haven't been able to breed from my pug

:-)

>I wanted a non shedding dog that was as normal dog shape as possible

That sounds like a poodle (several sizes and colours to choose from), or a Spanish Water Dog, or a Lagotto. No need to gamble on a crossbreed.

> but I always stop and talk to people who I see when I am out if they have a pug, you don't see many of them about where I live so I make a point of chatting with them.  Sadly the last two I spoke to which was only in the last couple of months have both got bad health issues, both losing their sight at a relatively young age. They were both young dogs and their owners were obviously upset. It's very sad, they are charming little characters.

yes and thats still not a representative group to make a comment on. did these people buy there dogs from reputable health testing breeders? there are many many pug breeders who go the whole hog into trying to make sure their dogs are healthy and happy- you'll find many of them on this forum. on the other hand the pug is also a breed that has been greatly abused by puppy farmers and byb's which accounts for the terrible illnesses they can have.

>> I wanted a non shedding dog that was as normal dog shape as possible
> That sounds like a poodle (several sizes and colours to choose from), or a Spanish Water Dog, or a Lagotto. No need to gamble on a crossbreed.

quite.

i have no issue with people deliberately setting out to create a new breed for a reason and doing so sensibly and carefully- such as the silken windhounds on another thread. they seem to have been carefully developed from health tested stock to fill a specific role- and of course are now bred true to type.

the lies and money schemes of these 'designer dogs' really gets up my nose though, not only is the truth twisted about pedigree well bred dogs but people fall in love with a dog that they believe will be fitter, not effect allergies etc and find out its not the case and get rid of them :MAD:

>I'd very much like to read the transcript of that.  Can you tell me which programme it was and when it was aired so that I can find it please?

Sorry Dill. It was ages ago and I was in the car listening to the radio on a long journey. I have tried to find something about it on the net but can't.

Liz

>

    > I haven't been able to breed from my pug

:-)

Isabel

I think it's mean of you to be pleased that I was duped by a supposedly reputable breeder.

I think you know perfectly well that is not the aspect I am pleased about.  You admit to using your pedigrees to create crosses that I cannot see any point to, well apart from one possibly, so naturally I am pleased that this was at least cross that did not come about.  You may not like that sentiment either but it is my honest opinion and nor is it "mean".

Hi Leah-Pardo,

Let us know what you decide to do about getting a puppy.

I think you can tell that certain subjects are always going to start quite a debate on here and other doggy sites! :-D

>I think it's mean of you to be pleased that I was duped by a supposedly reputable breeder.

I can guarantee that Isabel is pleased that you haven't bred from an unhealthy animal, not that you were duped.

> I can guarantee that Isabel is pleased that you haven't bred from an unhealthy animal,

Hear Hear.

Why anyone would want to breed from an unsound animal is beyond me and then to cross it?
Just looking and asking for trouble :(

Liz R - if your pedigree dogs are not healthy, then surely you can't be using them to breed your crosses from? And if they are healthy, then surely that goes to show that not all pedigrees are disease ridden wrecks?

Hear Hear again.

My girl is technically a cross stafford and compared to our pedigree stafford there is no competition for which one is healthier and thats our pedigree, so who ever says crosses are healthier are 100% WRONG and we all know their just basing their finidings on what theyve watched on THAT programme anyway, no one becomes a pro from watching one measly programme, crosses are more likely to have both breeds faults so how people can say their heltheir compared to buying a health tested dog is simply loony in my eyes.

> I think it's mean of you to be pleased that I was duped by a supposedly reputable breeder

clearly you have read none of isabels very passionate and informed posts about the need to breed from healthy stock... it is not mean to be concerned about a dog and its potential offsprings health.

crosses are certainly not healthier, your right- they can be as healthy, genetically there is no reason why they shouldn't be in a random mating. however if it was a case of having a pedigree from health tested parents or a random cross i know which one i;d have more hope for

I think you are all slightly adrift here :-)  I would not insult Liz with any suggestion that she would even consider breeding from unhealthy stock.  I am merely pleased that the pug was not suitable for possible cross breeding, which she does do.

>Why anyone would want to breed from an unsound animal is beyond me and then to cross it?
>Just looking and asking for trouble :-(

I was actually going to mate her to another pug and the reason I did not was because she was unsound.

>My girl is technically a cross stafford and compared to our pedigree stafford there is no competition for which one is healthier and thats our pedigree, so who ever says crosses are healthier are 100% WRONG and we all know their just basing their finidings on what theyve watched on THAT programme anyway, no one becomes a pro from watching one measly programme, crosses are more likely to have both breeds faults so how people can say their heltheir compared to buying a health tested dog is simply loony in my eyes.

I did not actually see "That Programme" but have been doing cross matings long before the programme was broadcast based on my own knowledge and opinion. Its not a very articulate way of expressing yourself Rach calling people loonies.

sorry isabel i think you've taken my meaning wrongly, i was defending you and am in complete agreement.

> but have been doing cross matings long before the programme was broadcast based on my own knowledge and opinion.

& your knowledge is that crossing two members of the same species(ie Canids)produces Hybrids with hybrid vigour ? No it doesn't it produces crossbreds-in a strictly scientific world a hybrid is a cross between two compatible different species or sub species(ie Horse & Donkey)these are frequently infertile unlike crosses between members of the same species/sub species. In the natural world you do not find Tigers x Lions even though they are both members of the same species but different sub species, because they do not live in the same environs & are normally infertile.

There is no scientific evidence to support "Hybrid vigour"in canid crossbreeds-the claims are made by breeders to try to con the public into paying more for a crossbreed

Hybrid

"offspring of two animals or plants of different species or VARIETIES"

From Oxford Dictionary.

You might find this article interesting,

Game bred dogs and heterosis,

Author's bio.
The author Doug Link has a post graduate degree in biotechnology from a UK university,
worked as an agricultural breed and species improvement scientist.  He also breeds both
English bull terriers and roosters on a small scale.  This article and its modified form
have been published in "the game dog" magazine and "Earth Dog Running Dog"
Magazine. 

Doug Link MSc (This article is written for educational purposes only, and is a more unusual, less
dry a way to discuss an often neglected topic in genetics).

Heterosis or hybrid vigour is the opposite of inbreeding depression. Inbreeding
depression often occurs naturally when out breeding animals or plants are inbred.  This
can be recognised by loss of overall fitness, lowering or loss of fertility and reduced
competitiveness. 

In the past there have been some very famous hybrid bull & terriers such as the famous
badger field trials dogs Kilwilkie lad (Stafford male) * (English bull terrier bitch), and the
famous pit dog Stormer (English bull terrier bitch * "pit bull terrier" dog).  No doubt an
important reason for the success of the former in badger trials and the latter in the pit was
due to their hybrid vigour.  Hybrid vigour leads to dogs that are nearly always stronger
and more athletic than the parents (humans are no exception to this rule). It is often
thought that crosses between different breeds such as an English bull terrier and a
Staffordshire bull terrier is required for hybrid vigour.  However dogs of the same breed
but of very different bloodlines i.e. American pit bull terriers crossed with other
American pit bull terriers; can also express varying degrees of hybrid vigour.  In the
shadowy world of dog fighting and cock fighting these dogs are known as battle crosses. 
A battle cross is a cross of different lines, or in extreme cases even different breeds for
use in battle (here meaning the pit or badger trials).  Hybrids are not themselves used to
produce offspring, as hybrid vigour is greatly reduced in the offspring of hybrid dogs. 
Therefore a battle cross is the offspring of two successful highly inbred dogs but from
very diverging lines or different breeds. 

Lurchers are a good example of hybrid dogs. "Lurcher" is the name given for any dog
crossed with a greyhound.  Lurchers are generally used for the hunting of hares (although
bull-lurchers are also used for the hunting of foxes and deer).  A greyhound although fast
is a very inbred animal, that is extremely suited to one thing only, (racing on a well
conditioned race track.).  This can result in very weak bones (very unsuitable for the
bumpy surface or quick turning that would be required for hare coursing on an English
field).  For Lurchers that are hybrids (stronger and more hardy) this is not a problem;
therefore the use of lurchers rather than greyhounds for hare coursing.  Lurchers are the
perfect example of hybrid working dogs.

But why don't hybrids always result in an improvement?  The answer is simple; hybrid
vigour only results in improvement of the offspring as compared to the parents.  So don't
expect to take two low performing parents and get offspring that are superior to the best
game or working dogs already out there.  (Note it is also important to keep in mind that out
crossing even within a specific breed leads to far more genetic scatter and variation, resulting in a
line that is not "tight".  This will result in a lot of "undesirable" garbage.  Within that "garbage"
however there will always be some rare diamonds, better even than the best of the best*best
crosses). 
Hybrids (such as Stormer) are often criticised by "dog men" for not producing (and
rightly so), this because it is only the hybrid itself that has the hybrid vigour.  So if you
have a successful hybrid the best option for producing, is to continue making crosses
from the parents of the successful hybrid, but NOT the hybrid itself.  


 
How can we tell if two lines have good genetic distances between them?  If you have a
lot of money then genetic testing is the answer.  Different methods of DNA analysis can
now score the level of genetic distance between two lines.  Allowing you to make a cross
within a breed and achieve hybrid vigour, however this method is expensive.  The other
way is to examine the pedigree of the two lines; trying to find as many differences as
possible.  Lines of dogs of the same breed but have been separated in different countries
for a long period of time, will usually show a degree hybrid vigour.  

Main points to remember when exploiting hybrid vigour.
* Achieved by crossing unrelated inbred lines or breeds
* The more distantly related the lines, the greater the hybrid vigor in the crosses
(beware as also the greater scatter).
* The greater degree of dominance at loci affecting a trait, the more hybrid vigor
possible
* Traits exhibiting the most hybrid vigor are the lowly heritable traits (gameness?)

Interesting isn't it?

Liz R

> How the resulting offspring were healthier, stronger and cleverer than the offspring of like to like matings as in white person to white person. That is why many of the sports players, runners, swimmers footballers etc are mixed race.

What a bizarre statement. I've never heard anything to suggest that mixed race people are more intelligent or physically stronger than non-mixed race. It just doesn't make any sense, given that the gene pool of black Africans, or Chinese, or white Euro-Americans, is so vast that there really cannot be any significant lack of vigour resulting from consistant inbreeding. Surely parental attributes, socio-economic background, and exposure to opportunities at a young age would be so influential that any "standard" for an ethnic group becomes meaningless.

> i was defending you

That is very kind :-) but you had got my meaning wrong :-)

Liz R, do you charge crossbreed prices for your crossbreeds, or inflated, 'designer dog' prices?

The dogs in that article were all produced for a reason though,some unsavoury but a reason none the less,which is why the author references them.You are still just producing pets(however healthy or unhealthy) for the pet market when there are rescues up and down the country full to the brim with them.If someone wants a cross just for a pet they should go to a rescue.

>Liz R, do you charge crossbreed prices for your crossbreeds, or inflated, 'designer dog' prices?

Crossbreeds around here (Midlands) are advertised at anything between £85 and £150.

> Crossbreeds around here (Midlands) are advertised at anything between £85 and £150.

That's more or less what rescues charge too.It must be considered a reasonable amount for a crossbreed :)

> Liz R, do you charge crossbreed prices for your crossbreeds, or inflated, 'designer dog' prices?

Good question & the answer is ??? ??? ???

I would still like to know where there is independant scientific evidence that crossing two breeds of dogs(which are not "varieties BTW)your quote from a non scientific dictionary is just that-non scientific. Domestic dogs are all the same sub species that is part of the species Canidae. All dogs can have genetic condirions both mongrel & pedigree, only the racing greyhound which is a very closely bred breed on the whole do not have a known case of HD-simply by being very selectively bred for a purpose. Crossbreeding dogs(with known common genetic conditions)is hardly likely to produce healthier offspring. Many toy breeds have slipping patella problems so crossing two such breeds will not diminish the chances of producing puppies with the condition. However breeding from dogs that have been fully health tested & do not have the genetic condition(s)is the only way to try to reduce the occurances of genetic problems & to produce healthier dogs.

Also dogs should be "Fit for purpose"whether as a companion, activities or working dog. There is no need to produce so called"non allergy"producing mongrels there are plenty of such breeds already in existance

With respect to Liz, surely the price that anyone will pay for a given dog depends upon supply and demand for that type in that area. If people are willing to pay say £800 for a mongrel, I don't see any problem with someone charging that, so long as the dogs have been responsibly bred and well taken care of, and the buyers understand what it is they are getting (which I guess in practice may not always be the case).

It's the same that I cannot see how people pay £3000 for a bulldog, but they do, so that's that.

The £85 I quoted was for completely accidental but very well-reared dalmatian (no, not any of mine!) x labradors. They were very popular.

>With respect to Liz, surely the price that anyone will pay for a given dog depends upon supply and demand for that type in that area. If people >are willing to pay say £800 for a mongrel, I don't see any problem with someone charging that, so long as the dogs have been responsibly bred >and well taken care of, and the buyers understand what it is they are getting (which I guess in practice may not always be the case

Now that's the sort of rationale that prevails locally!  The most awful staffies/ bull breeds of the moment are put together and then the results sold at ridiculous prices which people with no idea of the worth of something but every idea of price are stupidly willing to pay!  They then have no idea of how to deal with what they've bought and often either sell them on to recoup their costs or dump them in rescue if they get desperate :(  Of course the more enterprising owners then go on to 'make their money back' by continuing the theme :( 

How can any deliberately created crossbreed be 'responsibly bred' ?  If the rescues are full of crossbreeds and badly bred 'pedigrees' then surely anyone breeding more of the same would have to have a very very good reason for doing so - and not just because they can owing to market forces!

> The most awful staffies/ bull breeds of the moment are put together and then the results sold at ridiculous prices which people with no idea of the worth of something but every idea of price are stupidly willing to pay!  They then have no idea of how to deal with what they've bought and often either sell them on to recoup their costs or dump them in rescue if they get desperate

I really don't want to defend people who breed mongrels for the market, but I'm not sure what the price has to do with it. My comment was specifically regarding price, and I'm still not convinced that a dog will get a better owner, and a lower chance of ending up in rescue, purely because the breeder sold it for £50 rather than £500.

Selling a crossbreed for £500 says alot about the motives for producing them in the first place though.People breeding crosses for silly money generaly won't have health tested or shown the dogs involved or incurred those costs. They charge the same money as breeders who do all those things but have no costs ,the same case with  byb's of pedigrees.When people have genuine accidental matings  they tend to charge a generaly acceptable amount and the priority is to find good homes rather than to make money.

> The author Doug Link has a post graduate degree in biotechnology from a UK university,
> worked as an agricultural breed and species improvement scientist.  He also breeds both English bull terriers and roosters........
>Interesting isn't it?

I find it interesting that this man, who is pro-hybrid vigor, is actually breeding PURE BRED dogs????? If he believed in hybrid vigor to the extent he appears to, why isn't he breeding 'hybrids'?

>I really don't want to defend people who breed mongrels for the market, but I'm not sure what the price has to do with it. My comment was
>specifically regarding price, and I'm still not convinced that a dog will get a better owner, and a lower chance of ending up in rescue, purely >because the breeder sold it for £50 rather than £500.

Can't speak for the rest of the country, but around here, the higher the price the better the dog   regardless of actual quality of animal - it's about being able to show off about how much money people have to splash around :(   Hence the price of these 'unique' dogs is part of the cachet to the new owner ;)   These are the same people who want 'designer' gear (not Prada, jimmy choo) and are willing to pay stupid prices for market stall items - jewellery/perfume/clothes regardless of the fact that these are obviously 'knock off' copies.  Most of these people will offload the dog as soon as it goes out of fashion or it becomes a nuisance :(

At least if the pup is being sold for a nominal fee the owner is aware of what they are buying.  The breeders aren't making a killing so are less likely to over emphasise the 'desirable qualities' of the pup

Ok I'll be honest :) If i had an accidental litter,which by the way, has never,and will never happen,and i had a chance to sell the pups for mega bucks,then ofcourse i would! Why would i sell them for £50 when i could get £500 for them
I wouldn't sell them to jo blo and would do extensive home checks,give the babes proper health care etc etc When it comes to money i aint no martyr ;)
Now people breeding deliberate crosses and preying on the naive general public are a completely different ball game...

> These are the same people who want 'designer' gear (not Prada, jimmy choo) and are willing to pay stupid prices for market stall items - jewellery/perfume/clothes regardless of the fact that these are obviously 'knock off' copies

see this is what gets me, how stupid are these people? deisigner- something that has been carefully thought of and developed, as seen in beautiful armani suits and fantastic vivienne westwood dresses and carefully bred, health tested, agonised over as to which studs best and shown to check dogs.

saying er...i've a poodle and my mates got a chi... its a poochi! is not a design.

> Hence the price of these 'unique' dogs is part of the cachet to the new owner    These are the same people who want 'designer' gear (not Prada, jimmy choo) and are willing to pay stupid prices for market stall items - jewellery/perfume/clothes regardless of the fact that these are obviously 'knock off' copies.  Most of these people will offload the dog as soon as it goes out of fashion or it becomes a nuisance

Obviously, I can't talk about everybody in the country, but everyone I see around here who has a "designer dog" has actually also been a pretty good pet dog owner. They don't know anything about the politics of the dog world, and they buy the dog because pictures of other mongrels with similar parentage look cute, but once they have the dog they take care of it, feed it good food, take it to training classes, walk it regularly etc etc. These people aren't Paris Hilton who can throw £500 or £1000 away on a whim. They are mums and dads, or young couples who want a pet dog and have spent a lot of money on something they are going to take care of for life.

Also, you talk about the dogs being offloaded, but from what I have seen in rescues, most dogs still seem to be bull terrier, GSD and collie types, with the odd large breed who grew too powerful for its owners. I may be completely wrong, but I haven't seen a massive influx of cockapoos, springadors and golden doodles.

There will always be irresponsible owners, and if a Jordan wannabee thinks a dog would make a great fashion accessory then she will get one, whether it's a chihuahua, a maltese, a chinese or a designer type. I'm really, really, really not defending the breeders, but I just don't think that the majority of people who buy designer mongrels are any worse as owners than the average owner of other types of dog.

> Ok I'll be honest :-) If i had an accidental litter,which by the way, has never,and will never happen,and i had a chance to sell the pups for mega bucks,then ofcourse i would! Why would i sell them for £50 when i could get £500 for them <img src="/images/confused.gif" alt="confused">

And that was exactly my point regarding price. Why should any breeder sell their pups at a lower price than she can get, so long as she is sure that the new owners are responsible and willing to take on the burden of a dog? At the end of the day, that is why some pedigree breeds sell for thousands of pounds and others for hundreds.

Now my concern would be that people who buy designer mongrels are being mislead by the breeders going on about "hybrid vigour" and think they are getting a healthier dog than they actually are. But that is a different question.