I have a colleague who is really wanting an ESS.
I know that there are differences in show and working stock. The differences i know are that working stock tend to me slimline and athletic and their prey drive is a lot higher meaning they would require more exercise and attention.

They are a family, husband, wife and 2 young boys. There tends to always be someone home, if not then its only a few hours at a time due to the shifts my colleagues work.

Anyway i was wondering really what other differences are there in them and also does temperments change between the 2 lines? I think this would be the big one.

They have considered and still thinking about getting an older pup from a breeder, in which the pup hasn't fulfilled its potential on the field or show ring.

I am going to assist them in getting the right pup for their family and further advice between the 2 lines of stock would be helpful, more so with those with ESS or very close connections to them.

Thanks

Have not had one personally - but IME the working bred ones have A LOT more energy and are more 'busy' than the show ones, which are more laid back. The show ones obv look different, bigger overall, longer hairier ears etc. Sometimes I believe people cross the show and working strains as well. Having said that some show strains can still work - picking up, SGWC etc.

http://www.itsaspringthing.co.uk/choosing%20a%20springer.htm

This any use?

Believe me, I would not recommend a working bred ESS for a novice dog owning family.  Our first family dog was a male ESS who was show x working lines and he was hard work almost all of his 15 years on this planet!

I haven't owned a show bred one but I believe they are less boisterous and IMO they are a lot more pleasing to the eye, so many working bred spaniels are riddled with conformation faults.

I much prefer the look of the workers myself - but don't have the energy. :-D

> so many working bred spaniels are riddled with conformation faults.

Not to mention so few working bred seem to have been health tested and I know of several with bad HD.

I much prefer the look of the workers myself - but don't have the energy

Me too - same with cocker spaniels, I much prefer the working bred dogs looks wise :)

Me too! :-)
But have a working stock ESS with HD as well as other health problems so would echo what Brainless has already said.

Think the difference between the working strain and showing strain for most breeds that have both are what the breeders are looking for when they decide which dogs will be breed and to which other individual.

Those breeding working strains will be interested above all in the improvement of the working ability, what ever that entails. The show breeder will be more interested in conformation and health also wanting a biddable dog with good temperament both to man and other animals.

Now if it were only that simple, it is not because both strains of a breed are going to be bred by breeders who do not know what they are doing and will mate any dog to any bitch and you will also have the type of breeder who knows exactly what they are doing but their only criteria is to make money.

In general, a show bred dog will be best for a domestic pet and a working one for working or to accompany a very active owner. However it is not a science and you have to choose where you buy your puppy with great care and do your homework well researching the background of the pup you choose with as much care as did the breeder before the mating.

workers v show erm, i have 3 ess from working lines 1 from pup and 2 rescues,i also help out with springer rescue and can honestly say its very rare that a show bred dog comes in to rescue.

just one word of advice any reputable breeder that is breeding working dogs ie doing all the healthchecks etc will be breeding them for working, and as such their drive will be a lot more than some other working ess that have come from lets say less reputable sources, and to be honest you will struggle to find someone to sell you one unless you are intending to work him/ her.

On the show strain side to be honest, one of our volunteers has 3 Show bred dogs and i always feel like i want to poke them to get a reaction, they are so laid back compared to mine.

Well my own are pet workers, they are house dogs first but do a bit of beating in the season, out of season, one goes swimming, one goes to agility and the other trains as if i don't keep on top of her she just does her own thing. (thats another thing about the workers they can be very hard headed)

Please ask your friend to consider the following before going ahead, have they got the time to give the dog all the mental stimulation and exercise that it needs, are they ok with the mud and dust that a springer entails, and believe me a springer will find a muddy puddle in a drought, and most of all are they prepeared to have their life changed completely springers are hard work!!!

I am not anti breeder by any means, but if your friend is looking for an older dog has he considered rescue, we have a lot of dogs in at the moment all except a couple with no problems and full background. All our dogs are fostered in homes before rehoming so we know what the right home is for them.

> I much prefer the look of the workers myself

Oooooooooooo nnnnnooooo, high ear sets, Queen Anne fronts, too long in the body, too short in the leg etc.

In Scandanavia, it is the show type ESS that are the workers too and all show ESS have to have a working qualification to gain a title.

I am with you on this one Christine, the show Springers IMO are so much better looking very handsome dogs.

> I much prefer the look of the workers myself
>Oooooooooooo nnnnnooooo, high ear sets, Queen Anne fronts, too long in the body, too short in the leg etc.

I couldn't agree more. We get spaniels of all sorts coming in at work, and the working-type spaniels (both springers and cockers - and crosses between the two, just to muddy the water further!) are very inconsistent sizewise and buildwise.

they're different size wise because it depends where abouts in the country they have been bred, the working guys breed for the sort of cover that the dog is likely to work in, all mine are very different sizes, Meg was bred local to me and is quiet chubnky and a bit taller, the cover round here is mainly crop, molly is tiny (more cocker size) and we believe was bred further north as they have to work in tight gorse or heather

I prefer the look of the show springers myself :)

I much prefer the look of the working strain, but that's down to personal preference.

However, I would think very carefully before taking a puppy that was being sold because it had failed to make the grade as a working dog, just incase the problem was related to the puppie's temperament. Also, if the puppy had been groomed in a working home, it is likely to have been socialised very differently than you might a pet, so you could have problems. (I'm thinking that it might be very good around animals and guns etc, but not so good around traffic and lots of people). Oh, and some (but not all) true working springers (ie. ones that actually work as opposed to simply being working strain) live outside and so housetraining could be a problem in a slightly older dog.

I would say, if you want a puppy, get an eight or nine week old. If your lifestyle means that you cannot take care of a young pup, get an older rescue dog, not an adolescent who is likely to take up just as much of your time and may be a more difficult prospect.

Thanks guys. From all account i don't think they wish to work or show the dog.
I've already said to contact the breed club for a list of reputable breeders and passed on the breed rescue website.

I know that his wife is concerned that her already hyper kids will get worse with a very hyper dog. I believe that she wishes for a bit of calm in the house, but her hubby has decided that now he is allowed a dog it will be the ESS.
From my own experiences i was concerned as to if the ESS would be the best breed for them. I did offer alternatives  that would be good for their lifestyle which are in the gundog group, but hubby is not interested and wifey liked the idea but not the size of them.
Even Cockers are not on their list.

Sorry to all the springer owners, but I think a cocker would probably make a much more sensible family pet if they have hyper kids and this is their first dog for a long time.

Why wouldn't they look at cockers? Is it because they aren't manly enough for hubby when he's walking them? *rolls eyes*

All i can do is give the couple all the information and breed club details and let them make the decision.
Also i will be seeing if i can get them to come to a show with me in order to see some show ESS.

My friend works her dog and i'll see if they can attend a field trial where ESS will be there.

They do want to get the best they can and are aware of the health checks that the ESS would need to have.
I personally think that a show strain would be best for a hyper household and this would be their first dog as a family. Not sure if its hubby's first ever dog.

are there the same differences in welsh springers as there are in english?
Angela

> just one word of advice any reputable breeder that is breeding working dogs ie doing all the healthchecks etc will be breeding them for working, and as such their drive will be a lot more than some other working ess that have come from lets say less reputable sources,

Yes there seem to be show bred, real workers, and supposed workers that are actually Pet bred, some of the second don't think they have to health test as theirs are working dogs and only show dogs get health issues (duh) the Pet breeders in definitely don't test, and apart from looks whether they would make any better workers that a well bred show strain is anyones guess.

Personally I do like the look of the shorter ears and more compact build of the workers, but only on a well constructed dog as so many are badly out at elbows, have crooked legs, cow hocks etc.

Temperament on some I meet is horrendous, but that is the pot luck of any dogs bred without any selection.

> From my own experiences i was concerned as to if the ESS would be the best breed for them. I did offer alternatives  that would be good for their lifestyle which are in the gundog group, but hubby is not interested and wifey liked the idea but not the size of them.
>

What about Welsh Springers.

I know quite a number and have had them to stay for several weeks, and could just about live with one (couldn't with an ESS or Cocker).  The boys can be quite determined and are not a pushover with other dogs (stick up for themselves not look for a spat) but find them so much less mad than any working/pet bred ESS (don't know any show bred ones well enough to compare).

> are there the same differences in welsh springers as there are in english?
> Angela

No not really, and that is why I prefer them, as well as their ears are a more sensible length not getting dragged in the wet when their noses are down.

Also the colour is lovley and striking.

I will again mention the WSS and also the Field Spaniel(understand these to be very good 1st time dogs).

So interesting since we actively searched for another field bred ESS before going to our second Lab.  We are in Canada so of course perhaps things differ but my take on a lot of doggy matters is that in the UK you seem to be ahead of us.  Yet here, I did not find one single field ESS breeder who was not fully aware of health risks, testing, clearances. temperament etc.   Especially temperament as all of them realized the dog was probably going to a home where it would do double duty as a family pet. 

Is testing for fucosidosis done in the UK?

Many years ago we had a springer as our first family dog. He was a fantastic dog but bursting with energy to work.
We never worked him. when out walking he would kill any small animal such as squirrels,birds,and even had the odd chicken or 2 when at the stable yard. we still loved him to bits and wish he was here today to cause mischief,he lived till he was 16yrs old.

> I know that his wife is concerned that her already hyper kids will get worse with a very hyper dog. I believe that she wishes for a bit of calm in the house, but her hubby has decided that now he is allowed a dog it will be the ESS.
>

In her situation I'd probably look for an adult from breed rescue. They'll be mature and won't have the biting and overzealous play puppies go through. Added bonus, they can find a laid back character - pups are an unknown. I walk with a couple of ESS from the same breeder. Both show stock, one has high drive and is a lot of work, the other is a rug that doesn't even need a walk every day to be happy. A settled adult would probably make your friend's wife much happier too.

I know more so that with 'that' programme many people are trying to convince them to get one from rescue and also a cross breed.
My colleague has it set in his mind he wants an ESS, he may consider rescue as he did say his next point to look at is whether he gets an 8 week old pup of an older one.
I do know that with show dogs if they don't reach their potential early on some breeders will look to sell them as pets in view that they have no place in their kennel. So that is also another option to think about.

I have my views on all of this but its their pet that they have to live with. I will be stating that in view its a family pet then the adults need to go and see what they like first and make an informed decision and then to take the boys along to make sure that the pup/dog gets along with them also.

> I know that his wife is concerned that her already hyper kids will get worse with a very hyper dog.

In that case I would say undoubtedly go for a show strain. :-)

> high ear sets, Queen Anne fronts, too long in the body, too short in the leg etc.

Depends on the breeding. I don't mean pet bred ones.

http://www.meonvalley.org.uk/news.htm

Middle pic at top - like them. :-)

I personally know two WSS. One is owned by a lovely family with young children, but she is extremely hyper and would give most working ESS a run for their money. That together with being very vocal would be enough to put me off the breed. The other attended club for a while, and whilst he appeared calmer, I was told that he was very different at home and wanted to be on the go all the time. His owner had previously had a working bred spinger and felt his new lad was very similar to live with.
In contrast we have recently had two show bred springers attend club and they have been an absolute delight, enough energy for the average family, but calm and relaxed when nothing was going on. For me it would definitely be a show bred ESS.

We have a couple of WSS at our ringcraft and tbh they are very calm for any springer. I like their nature and colourings are fab, coupled with the fact that they have great owners who are calm themselves(which i think helps).

When you say WSS do you mean Welsh Springer Spaniel or Working (English) Springer Spaniel?

I mean Welshie when i put WSS and English when i put ESS.

Sorry for any confusion

im backing working ESS all the way

That surprises me Hayley as you have had quite a lot of issues with yours, which I think you would agree have been hard for you as an experienced owner, so why would you think a Novice would fare best with a Working lines dog over a show bred one?

That surprises me Hayley as you have had quite a lot of issues with yours

what issues would those be then? cus i havent got a clue about what you are on about!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry got you confused with another poster who had behavioural/temperament issues with her working bred ESS bitch and skeletal problems with Male ESS.

oh lol!

I really don't think they will have the time to work the dog. Me thinks on a personal note that an ESS or WSS from show stock is the right way forward for this family.

It does surprise me from what has been said that many working ESS aren't health tested for anything. Why would this be? Surely they still need to be made right to work right?

The WSS is a dual purpose breed and there should be no real physical difference between the show and working stock apart from the docked tail favoured by those who still work their dogs. WSS owners are very proud of the fact that their dogs can be in the field one day and in the show ring the next. While there are personality differences within every breed, in general WSS seem calmer and easier to live with than ESS, but evidently not as easy to train as a working dog. Unless you happen to really like spending a lot of your time managing a swimming, muddy beast perhaps it might be better to look for another breed altogether--I'm sure there are happy spaniels that live wothout access to lake and open country but you only have to see a 'busy' dog to see their real beauty. Have a look at the breed and breed rescue websites--they are great sources of information and very honest about the pros and cons for prospective owners.

The welshies look lovely. We used to have working ESS when I was young, and they were a nightmare (but then they were proper working dogs - amazingly reliable in the field, but would never have made pets).

All this information will be passed on. Think i may pass him this link so he can have a read through.

Our WSS boy is a first rate sweetheart, loves to be with me all the time, great sense of humour, extremely bright and fast learner (though sometimes likes to check whether his person is quite so well trained, he has been known to wait for me to fetch the dummy out of the pond),very well socialised with other dogs thanks to his fantastic breeder and tremendously affectionate to all our family and friends. Who could ask for more?

I've had a big chat with the potential owner and he reckons that he will wear the dog out by playing ball or jogging with it twice a day for an hour at each time. He doesn't want one that goes all day and is fairly quiet in the house.
He didn't know anything about training or toilet training and the first few days of puppyhood when you get them home.. I went through all of this.. He has time to read up about it all and will pass him books to read.

My worry is that he loves the ESS a lot, but i'm not sure it is the right breed for him. ESS go all day and from what i know are not quiet in the house.
Any comments on this. Also not sure if they looked at another breed what would be good for them as they don;t want a dog the size of a Lab, a terrier would be too much hard work for them and anything toy size is not practical.
I was wondering about a Cocker in view of this, are they quieter in the house after exercise and play than a Springer? Also the Beagle was a thought too.
Wife is liking the Lab which would be perfect but hubby is not sure they have the space for one.

They will be first time owners.

Further to this i strongly advised them to go to Crufts for DD and look at all breeds of dogs.
My father suggested that they start volunteering for dog walking at the local Dogs Trust to get them into the swing of things about caring and how much work they really are.
Not sure he has grasped the concept of training and of course classes with them being newbies into the dog world.

> I was wondering about a Cocker in view of this, are they quieter in the house after exercise and play than a Springer?

Yes, I would say so.  They want to be with you but will settle down when not much is going on.

He could do worse than go to his local training class and have a look at the sort of puppies/dogs they have.  As long as he asks the permission of the trainer I'm sure most would be willing for him to observe, by appointment maybe to be sure it's the right group, and to talk to the owners after.  At least this way he'll get a 'real' look at some puppies/dogs in action.

Your dads idea is a good one but it's very hard to be completely realistic about a first dog.  Your friend and his wife are at the stage where 'they don't know what they don't know'!  It's very easy to believe that you know exactly what is involved with dog ownership but it can still take you by surprise.  You only have to look at the puppy threads to see that even very experienced dog owners can struggle with puppy behaviours!

We have a neighbour who has a working ESS and she would have been a much better dog in more experienced hands.  Sadly she has a number of issues that have been created by the owners.  As this has been their only experience I don't think they quite grasp that they have shaped many of her behaviours, she wasn't born like that...  She is also likely to have health issues later some of which may well be attributable to taking her on weekly 20 mile cycle trips before she was a year old - they were trying to tire her out BUT that's another story. 

The only thing you can do is to try and put him in touch with other first time dog owners.  Another thing he may consider is ESS rescue; I found a lost working ESS recently and was struck by how many of these dogs are in foster care and awaiting new homes.  Some of the rescue places would be very good people to give advice to prospective owners and they will have plenty of young dogs needing new families.

Good luck

can i ask where he is based, if he is really struck on an ESS it may help if he could meet up with somone who has one. its not the running or playing that wears them out its using their brains. One of mine did a full days beating last Saturday (5 drives) and was still raring to go the next day. I do work for a springer rescue so feel free to pm me and i will pass on my details i am more than willing to have a chat